Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

hinault · 30-03-2015 11:46PM

djerk wrote: »

Life and mind, mind and life?

I brought up questions that challenge myself and my entire being. I don't think anyone even cared to answer, it's the usual rhetoric. Religion is a piece of mind.. through space and time, not peace, for our minds.

The world is lacking in self definition, common sense and intuition. It relies on submission and tradition, and basic lack of courage to change at all.

Each time we try to move a little bit forward, we have religious dogma beating the rest of us down.

I'll bite.

Give us an example where you personally were beaten down by religious dogma.

I'm old enough to have been raised in a society where the influence of the church was far more tangible and far more apparent, upon Irish society. Even then I never experienced any sort of religious dogma beating me down.

These days the influence of the church is minimal to non-existent by comparison, upon society.

Peregrinus · 31-03-2015 12:42AM

silverharp wrote: »

I dont really buy the whole my prophets went rougue argument . we are presented with a god who does not have a problem getting his message accross so it would be logical to assume that any prophet that went off message would be dealt with quickly.

You haven't actually read much of the bible, have you?

We are not presented with "a god who does not have a problem getting his message across"; in fact he persistently has considerable problems getting his message across - "hardness of heart" preventing people (including prophets, as well as their audience) from listening, understanding or accepting is a constant theme.

As for it being "logical to assume" that God would deal quickly with an off-message prophet, why would you make any assumption at all? Unless, perhaps, assuming that the bible says something [that you want it to say] saves you the trouble of reading it to see whether it says that [and the risk of finding, inconveniently, that it doesn't].

Peregrinus · 31-03-2015 12:46AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

Once again thanks for replies that actually make me think and are thought out, but I must say they do not convince me at all, I say that as politely as possible

That's fine. It's not my object to convince you. You asked for my take on this particular passage, and I've offered it. It doesn't have to be your take too.

jaffusmax · 31-03-2015 06:24AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

That's fine. It's not my object to convince you. You asked for my take on this particular passage, and I've offered it. It doesn't have to be your take too.

It's religions job to make me believe under threat of eternal damnation.

Peregrinus · 31-03-2015 06:35AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

It's religions job to make me believe under threat of eternal damnation.

No, it's not. But you can choose to believe that that's religion's job, if you want to. Just accept your own responsibility for making that choice, and don't offload it onto others.

jaffusmax · 31-03-2015 06:47AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, it's not. But you can choose to believe that that's religion's job, if you want to. Just accept your own responsibility for making that choice, and don't offload it onto others.

Wrong, the bible/religion takes away peoples choice to politely reject god and jesus. Religion tells us that if you don't follow its teaching you will not receive life everlasting and go to hell! It is dishonest to say religion does not do these things and its immoral to scare people into believing its nonsense under threat of eternal fire and brimstone!

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."(St. John 3:16)

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

Peregrinus · 31-03-2015 07:05AM

You do realise that, far from backing up your claims, your quotes undermine them?

Your first quote, from John 3, says that those who believe in Jesus will have everlasting life. It conspicuously does not say that those who don't believe in Jesus won't. It presents belief in Jesus as a route to everlasting life, not the only route. To claim that it's the only route, you have to not only assume things that Jn 3 does not say, but also ignore passages like Mt 25, which says precisely the opposite.

And your second quote, from Rev 21, seems to me to focus on your behaviour and your actions as leading to damnation, not just your beliefs.

Of course, you're free to believe that the bible teaches that unbelievers are damned. You can even back that up with a selective reading of scripture (though, to be honest, you'd want to be a bit more selective than you have been so far). But if you want my respect for that position you are going to have to acknowledge that it is your choice, that nobody else is forcing you to embrace one a particular interpretation of one particular selection of texts from the bible, and to disregard other interpretations and other texts. And, for bonus points, you should probably be prepared to analyse why you feel the need to embrace this belief. Why is it the belief that religion is oppressive so necessary to you that you will disregard - genuinely not even notice - evidence which fails to confirm this belief?

jaffusmax · 31-03-2015 07:14AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

You do realise that, far from backing up your claims, your quotes contradict them?

Your first quote, from John 3, says that those who believe in Jesus will have everlasting life. It conspicuously does not say that those who don't believe in Jesus won't. It presents belief in Jesus as a route to everlasting life, not the only route. To claim that it's the only route, you have to not only assume things that Jn 3 does not say, but also ignore passages like Mt 25, which says precisely the opposite.

And your second quote, from Rev 21, seems to suggest that its mainly your behaviour and your actions which lead to damnation, not just your beliefs.

Of course, you're free to believe that the bible teaches that unbelievers are damned. You can even back that up with a selective reading of scripture (though, to be honest, you'd want to be a bit more selective than you have been so far). But if you want my respect for that position you are going to have to acknowledge that it is your choice, that nobody else is forcing you to embrace one a particular interpretation of one particular selection of texts from the bible, and to disregard other interpretations and other texts. And, for bonus points, you should probably be prepared to analyse why you feel the need to embrace this belief. Why is it the belief that religion is oppressive so necessary to you that you will disregard - genuinely not even notice - evidence which fails to confirm this belief?

You are correct we are given a "Choice" we get a choice between hell or eternal life!

Let me put it another way if you were given a "Choice" reject god or be put to death? You either receive martyrdom or go to hell!

Abusers often blame the victim for what choice the victim made to cause them to be abused! A sex offender would say that woman wore a provocative skirt so I felt compelled to abuse her, it was her fault! Or a priest in Australia will say that woman had a choice to have more faith in god but did not so went out and got raped and murdered. What the bible teaches (in a more PR Friendly way these days) to our children is that you have a choice our way or the highway to hell!

Peregrinus · 31-03-2015 07:21AM

You're ignoring my point, Jaffusmax.

When John 3:16 says that those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, you're reading that as a claim that only those who believe in Jesus will have everlasting life. The word "only" isn't in the text; you're reading it in. That's a choice. Nobody makes you do that; you choose to do it.

Similarly, when Mt 25 contradicts your reading of Jn 3, you choose to ignore that. You - nobody else - decide that your understanding of what Christianity teaches will be shaped by your (somewhat embroidered) reading of what Jn 3 says and not at all by what Mt 25 says.

Stop trying to blame religion for this. These are your choices. Refusing to accept responsibility for them is not a good look. Refusing even to ask yourself why you feel driven to make these choices is also not a good look.

jaffusmax · 31-03-2015 07:23AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

You're ignoring my point, Jaffusmax.

When John 3:16 says that those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, you're reading that as a claim that only those who believe in Jesus will have everlasting life. The word "only" isn't in the text; you're reading it in. That's a choice. Nobody makes you do that; you choose to do it.

Similarly, when Mt 25 contradicts your reading of Jn 3, you choose to ignore that. You - nobody else - decide that your understanding of what Christianity teaches will be shaped by your (somewhat embroidered) reading of what Jn 3 says and not at all by what Mt 25 says.

Stop trying to blame religion for this. These are your choices. Refusing to accept responsibility for them is not a good look. Refusing even to ask yourself why you feel driven to make these choices is also not a good look.

Where will I go as an Atheist whom has utterly rejected Jesus and his Father when I die? Please be honest and I will except a one word answer.

The bible is full of misinterpretations and contradiction this just proves the point its man made and not to be taking serious as a basis for religious beleif!

Peregrinus · 31-03-2015 07:26AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

Where will I go as an Atheist whom has utterly rejected Jesus and his Father when I die?

Depends on the choices you made in life.

I have mentioned Mt 25 several times in this exchange. Have you read it? If not, you probably are not well-positioned to pontificate about what Christianity has to say on this question. If yes, how do you reconcile your apparent belief about what Christianity has to say on this subject with what the Gospel actually says?

Peregrinus · 31-03-2015 07:33AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

The bible is full of misinterpretations and contradiction this just proves the point its man made and not to be taking serious as a basis for religious beleif!

Whatever you think of the merits of the bible, as a matter of fact it either is or is not the principal source of Christian belief.

If it isn't, why do you keep quoting bits of it at us in support of your claims about Christian belief?

If it is, and you seriously want to try and engage with Christian beliefs, you need to stop editing it and adapting it when you read it. At the moment, to be honest, you give the impression of simply dipping into the bible looking for bits than can be pressed into service to reinforce your preconceptions about Christian beliefs, mentally amending the bits you find so that they support better the conclusions you are determined to reach, and disregarding all the bits that, even after amendment, can't usefully be employed in this vital task.

jaffusmax · 31-03-2015 07:34AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Depends on the choices you made in life.

I have mentioned Mt 25 several times in this exchange. Have you read it? If not, you probably are not well-positioned to pontificate about what Christianity has to say on this question. If yes, how do you reconcile your apparent belief about what Christianity has to say on this subject with what the Gospel actually says?

Yes I have and I can not interpret what your point is from it. Are you sure that I have a place at gods side in heaven!

What happens now to me when I die, I have made my choice and rejected god and jesus?

jaffusmax · 31-03-2015 07:39AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Whatever you think of the merits of the bible, as a matter of fact it either is or is not the principal source of Christian belief.

If it isn't, why do you keep quoting bits of it at us in support of your claims about Christian belief?

If it is, and you seriously want to try and engage with Christian beliefs, you need to stop editing it and adapting it when you read it. At the moment, to be honest, you give the impression of simply dipping into the bible looking for bits than can be pressed into service to reinforce your preconceptions about Christian beliefs, mentally amending the bits you find so that they support better the conclusions you are determined to reach, and disregarding all the bits that, even after amendment, can't usefully be employed in this vital task.

I find that offensive! I take what I read in the bible at face value and do not need to be given interpretations of it and then told I am not able to grasp them!

I am Atheist and do not need to read your bible back to front and accept your interpretation of it. I have a right to engage with Christian whom feel the right to teach my children their belief and tell me since I was a child that I will go to hell if I do not except their interpretation of the bible! The Catholic Church had a policy of not allowing the bible be read by people for a reason now it is said people still cant grasp its interpretation until they are told it by people like you!

If I told you that you have no right to discuss Atheism with an Atheist because you dont fully undertsand it I bet you would find that just as offensive as I find your comment if I Atheism was being thought to your child!

Peregrinus · 31-03-2015 07:41AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

Yes I have and I can not interpret what your point is from it. Are you sure that I have a place at gods side in heaven!

No, I'm not. I'm not in a position to be sure of that with respect to anyone.

jaffusmax wrote: »

What happens now to me when I die, I have made my choice and rejected god and jesus?

How would I know? As already pointed out more than once, Christian belief is that that depends on the choices you have made in life. I only know one choice that you have made (and I only know that one because you have told me about it) but Mt 25 - for the love of God go and read it before your respond to this - suggests that other choices are relevant to the question you ask.

jaffusmax · 31-03-2015 07:42AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, I'm not. I'm not in a position to be sure of that with respect to anyone.

How would I know? As already pointed out more than once, Christian belief is that that depends on the choices you have made in life. I only know one choice that you have made (and I only know that one because you have told me about it) but Mt 25 - for the love of God go and read it before your respond to this - suggests that other choices are relevant to the question you ask.

Maybe you cannot but the Church says that I will go to hell!

jaffusmax · 31-03-2015 07:48AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, I'm not. I'm not in a position to be sure of that with respect to anyone.

How would I know? As already pointed out more than once, Christian belief is that that depends on the choices you have made in life. I only know one choice that you have made (and I only know that one because you have told me about it) but Mt 25 - for the love of God go and read it before your respond to this - suggests that other choices are relevant to the question you ask.

Although you seem to be in a position to tell me I have a choice. I say I do not have a choice in Christianity to reject god without consequence!

silverharp · 31-03-2015 07:52AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

You haven't actually read much of the bible, have you?

We are not presented with "a god who does not have a problem getting his message across"; in fact he persistently has considerable problems getting his message across - "hardness of heart" preventing people (including prophets, as well as their audience) from listening, understanding or accepting is a constant theme.

As for it being "logical to assume" that God would deal quickly with an off-message prophet, why would you make any assumption at all? Unless, perhaps, assuming that the bible says something [that you want it to say] saves you the trouble of reading it to see whether it says that [and the risk of finding, inconveniently, that it doesn't].

in the case being mentioned doesnt God reject Saul later for disobeying God? If apologetics is just "god never said that" for any event that is awkward then it just becomes a nonsense

Peregrinus · 31-03-2015 08:13AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

I find that offensive! I take what I read in the bible at face value . . .

No, you don't. You just tell yourself that you do.

I have already pointed out, several times, that you have cited Jn 3:16 in support of your claim that Christianity teaches that only believers can go to heaven, despite the fact, taken at face value, the plain words of Jn 3:16 do not say this.

You flatly refuse to engage with this. You don't explain why you think Jn 3:16 supports your claim. You don't engage with other gospel texts which address the same claim but are are even more at variance with it than Jn 3:16 is. And in fact the more I invite you to join the dots between the evidence on offer and the beliefs you hold, do this the angrier you become.

What do you expect me to make of this behaviour? What would you make of it in someone else?

I'm sorry that you find what I'm saying offensive but, to be honest, it's hard for me to draw any conclusions from your position that won't upset you. This goes back to the point I was making earlier. You have chosen a set of beliefs. You present evidence that seems to you to support your beliefs but, (a) you are ignoring equally relevant evidence that doesn't support them, and (b) so firm are your beliefs, that even the evidence that you have selected doesn't, when examined, support them in quite the way you assumed.

jaffusmax wrote: »

I am Atheist and do not need to read your bible back to front and accept your interpretation of it.

Of course. But if you want to make claims about what Christianity teaches, you're going to have to engage with the bible, and with Christian interpretations of it. Simply being an atheist doesn't enable you to proclaim authoritatively what Christianity teaches.

jaffusmax wrote: »

If I told you that you have no right to discuss Atheism with an Atheist because you dont fully undertsand it I bet you would find that just as offensive as I find your comment if I Atheism was being thought to your child!

I have never said that you have no right to discuss religion because you don't understand it. On the contrary, you have every right to discuss religion. But if you are going to make a claim about religion ("It's religion's job to make me believe under threat of eternal damnation") you had better be prepared to justify that claim. You are in the Christianity forum, after all; you are making this claim to people who you must know are likely to disagree with it. Do you expect them to fall over backwards at your authority, as an atheist, to tell them what religion's job is? My assumption is that you come to this forum and make such a claim because you wish to discuss it, and you're happy to discuss it in a forum where it's likely to be challenged. It turns out that you're not as happy as I had assumed, but that's hardly my fault.

Peregrinus · 31-03-2015 08:14AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

Maybe you cannot but the Church says that I will go to hell!

No, it doesn't.

If you continue to claim that it does, cite, please, for this teaching.

MaxWig · 31-03-2015 08:18AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, it doesn't.

If you continue to claim that it does, cite, please, for this teaching.

Peregrinus stop trying to take away everyone's sense of injustice.

Can't a man just be oppressed for a little while?

I mean, if we're not being oppressed, how come my life isn't better?

jaffusmax · 31-03-2015 08:28AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, you don't. You just tell yourself that you do.

I have already pointed out, several times, that you have cited Jn 3:16 in support of your claim that Christianity teaches that only believers can go to heaven, despite the fact, taken at face value, the plain words of Jn 3:16 do not say this.

You flatly refuse to engage with this. You don't explain why you think Jn 3:16 supports your claim. You don't engage with other gospel texts which address the same claim but are are even more at variance with it than Jn 3:16 is. And in fact the more I invite you to join the dots between the evidence on offer and the beliefs you hold, do this the angrier you become.

What do you expect me to make of this behaviour? What would you make of it in someone else?

I'm sorry that you find what I'm saying offensive but, to be honest, it's hard for me to draw any conclusions from your position that won't upset you. This goes back to the point I was making earlier. You have chosen a set of beliefs. Your present evidence that seems to you to support your beliefs but, you are ignoring equally relevant evidence that doesn't support them, and 9b) so firm are your beliefs, that even the evidence that you have selected doesn't, when examined, support them in quite the way you assumed.

Of course. But if you want to make claims about what Christianity teaches, you're going to have to engage with the bible, and with Christian interpretations of it. Simply being an atheist doesn't enable you to proclaim authoritatively what Christianity teaches.

I have never said that you have no right to discuss religion because you don't understand it. On the contrary, you have every right to discuss religion. But if you are going to make a claim about religion ("It's religion's job to make me believe under threat of eternal damnation") you had better be prepared to justify that claim. You are in the Christianity forum, after all; you are making this claim to people who you must know are likely to disagree with it. Do you expect them to fall over backwards at your authority, as an atheist, to tell them what religion's job is? My assumption is that you come to this forum and make such a claim because you wish to discuss it, and you're happy to discuss it in a forum where it's likely to be challenged. It turns out that you're not as happy as I had assumed, but that's hardly my fault.

I am not trying to convert anybody here or make you not believe in Christianity. I am here to present my argument that Religion is Immoral and a force for bad in the world.

You are also in the Atheist thread of the Christainity forum so you should expect to be challenged also and as far as I am concerned I have presented valid arguments and I will leave that to reader to decide for themselves if I have.

I have asked you a number of times what happens to persons whom do not accept god/jesus when they die. The very act of you saying I have a choice is a way of saying that god/jesus has given us a choice. Let me say this I reject even being told a supernatural being has given me choices!

Have I misinterpreted all the below too or am I just not intelligent enough to grasp their true meaning?

Mark 16:16English Standard Version (ESV)

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Matthew 25:41English Standard Version (ESV)

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

John, Chapter 3 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

marienbad · 31-03-2015 08:33AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

You're ignoring my point, Jaffusmax.

When John 3:16 says that those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, you're reading that as a claim that only those who believe in Jesus will have everlasting life. The word "only" isn't in the text; you're reading it in. That's a choice. Nobody makes you do that; you choose to do it.

Similarly, when Mt 25 contradicts your reading of Jn 3, you choose to ignore that. You - nobody else - decide that your understanding of what Christianity teaches will be shaped by your (somewhat embroidered) reading of what Jn 3 says and not at all by what Mt 25 says.

Stop trying to blame religion for this. These are your choices. Refusing to accept responsibility for them is not a good look. Refusing even to ask yourself why you feel driven to make these choices is also not a good look.

That might be your interpretation Peregrinus , but are there not major Christian domination that do say that belief in Christ is the only way to eternal life and those that are offerd that belief but do not accept are more certainly damned ?

jaffusmax · 31-03-2015 08:39AM

MaxWig wrote: »

Peregrinus stop trying to take away everyone's sense of injustice.

Can't a man just be oppressed for a little while?

I mean, if we're not being oppressed, how come my life isn't better?

Stop sticking your oar in! :P:P:P:P

hinault · 31-03-2015 08:46AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

You do realise that, far from backing up your claims, your quotes undermine them?

Your first quote, from John 3, says that those who believe in Jesus will have everlasting life. It conspicuously does not say that those who don't believe in Jesus won't. It presents belief in Jesus as a route to everlasting life, not the only route. To claim that it's the only route, you have to not only assume things that Jn 3 does not say, but also ignore passages like Mt 25, which says precisely the opposite.

And your second quote, from Rev 21, seems to me to focus on your behaviour and your actions as leading to damnation, not just your beliefs.

Of course, you're free to believe that the bible teaches that unbelievers are damned. You can even back that up with a selective reading of scripture (though, to be honest, you'd want to be a bit more selective than you have been so far). But if you want my respect for that position you are going to have to acknowledge that it is your choice, that nobody else is forcing you to embrace one a particular interpretation of one particular selection of texts from the bible, and to disregard other interpretations and other texts. And, for bonus points, you should probably be prepared to analyse why you feel the need to embrace this belief. Why is it the belief that religion is oppressive so necessary to you that you will disregard - genuinely not even notice - evidence which fails to confirm this belief?

It's laughable, Peregrinus.

They're blaming an entity (God) which they don't believe exists for forcing them to believe

marienbad · 31-03-2015 09:10AM

hinault wrote: »

It's laughable, Peregrinus.

They're blaming an entity (God) which they don't believe exists for forcing them to believe

Yeah isn't it , but not as vain as one who has been given that belief laughing at those that haven't

jaffusmax · 31-03-2015 09:15AM

hinault wrote: »

It's laughable, Peregrinus.

They're blaming an entity (God) which they don't believe exists for forcing them to believe

It happens right to this day, not a laughing matter!

A forced conversion is the religious conversion or acceptance of a philosophy against the will of the subject, often with the threatened consequence of earthly penalties or harm. These consequences range from job loss and social isolation to incarceration, torture or death. It is a form of religious cleansing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion

hinault · 31-03-2015 09:18AM

MaxWig wrote: »

Peregrinus stop trying to take away everyone's sense of injustice.

Can't a man just be oppressed for a little while?

I mean, if we're not being oppressed, how come my life isn't better?

I feel your oppression, Max

Won't somebody, anybody, help my oppression

MaxWig · 31-03-2015 09:23AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

It happens right to this day, not a laughing matter!

A forced conversion is the religious conversion or acceptance of a philosophy against the will of the subject, often with the threatened consequence of earthly penalties or harm. These consequences range from job loss and social isolation to incarceration, torture or death. It is a form of religious cleansing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw

Worth a look. They're stuck in the same loop!

jaffusmax · 31-03-2015 09:25AM

hinault wrote: »

I feel your oppression, Max

Won't somebody, anybody, help my oppression

You are already oppressed and don't even know it. A totalitarian god watches you when you sleep, convicts you of thought crime, tells you what you should and should not do and the fun only starts when you die, because after a life of being his slave you get to go to a North Korea in the sky and worship him for eternity!

At least in North Korea you die and escape oppression as a Christian death is just the beginning!

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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