Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

jaffusmax · 30-03-2015 01:08PM

MaxWig wrote: »

jaffusmax wrote: »

For sake of argument - US Army, university educated, non-religious soldier fighting for British Army in Afghanistan. His group engage the enemy and kill all of them.

Doesn't have to be head. Just ordered to shoot - and shot!

Are they protecting civilians from Taliban insurgents enacting genocide and rape on the population in the name of Allah?

I would consider them good people doing good work! I fully support him and hope he gets a commendation!

MaxWig · 30-03-2015 01:13PM

jaffusmax wrote: »

MaxWig wrote: »

Are they protecting civilians from Taliban insurgents enacting genocide and rape on the population in the name of Allah?

I would consider them good people doing good work! I fully support him and hope he gets a commendation!

Yes because that is why, typically, western armies have been active in middle eastern territories.

But ok - you are saying that its an impossibility for a non-religious example of someone doing something bad in the belief that it is right.

I think I've pointed out the flaw in that argument. I fail to see how anyone could hold the view

jaffusmax · 30-03-2015 01:15PM

MaxWig wrote: »

jaffusmax wrote: »

Yes because that is why, typically, western armies have been active in middle eastern territories.

But ok - you are saying that its an impossibility for a non-religious example of someone doing something bad in the belief that it is right.

I think I've pointed out the flaw in that argument. I fail to see how anyone could hold the view

I think you are clutching at straws

silverharp · 30-03-2015 01:18PM

hinault wrote: »

Greek Law was codified at the earliest 900 B.C.

Moses lived long before 900 B.C., SH.

You've cited Brehon Law earlier, Roman Law earlier and now Greek Law to try to justify your argument that somehow society can derive first what the Mosaic Law had already codified.

I only need to show that they were independant . I have given you examples brehon law pre dated Christianity in Ireland so even a basic society could come up with basic right and wrong ideas.
I should have added that the Greek system developed from the Egyptian system there are examples of theft cases under Rameses ix which was the 12 hundreds bce.

MaxWig · 30-03-2015 01:24PM

jaffusmax wrote: »

MaxWig wrote: »

I think you are clutching at straws

I'm literally astounded at your narrow view of the world.

You are ignoring some pretty basic principles.

That we must decide what is evil. That evil is not an objective label.

That evil - no matter how you describe it - is very often the result of neutral objectives.

People have beliefs. A handful are religious. All of them influence our actions.

So everything we do is in accordance with our beliefs.

The idea that what you do is never wrong, or bad, because you don't believe it to be so is borderline delusion.

Something as simple as refusing to give money to a beggar because one thinks they'll spend it on alcohol or drugs is an example of one doing something 'evil' because of beliefs.

jaffusmax · 30-03-2015 01:34PM

MaxWig wrote: »

I'm literally astounded at your narrow view of the world.

You are ignoring some pretty basic principles.

That we must decide what is evil. That evil is not an objective label.

That evil - no matter how you describe it - is very often the result of neutral objectives.

People have beliefs. A handful are religious. All of them influence our actions.

So everything we do is in accordance with our beliefs.

The idea that what you do is never wrong, or bad, because you don't believe it to be so is borderline delusion.

Something as simple as refusing to give money to a beggar because one thinks they'll spend it on alcohol or drugs is an example of one doing something 'evil' because of beliefs.

http://www.avert.org/worldwide-hiv-aids-statistics.htm

Here is a link to how many are dying and effected with the HIV Virus

Good people in the Catholic Church based on their religious beliefs demand of Catholics that they do not use condoms and command them to procreate to fill the world with gods children. This in turn spreads this awful disease at a terrifying rate all because of a religious belief! This to me is one of the greatest evils the Catholic Church has inflicted on the world!

Now you can either bury your head in the sand and say its not just religion, but I have more faith in the basic decency of human nature to believe no good person would order such a thing unless they have belief in the divine and claim to know its mind!

Whomever reads these posts can make up their own minds but I am steadfast in mine that

l. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion."

MaxWig · 30-03-2015 01:38PM

jaffusmax wrote: »

MaxWig wrote: »

http://www.avert.org/worldwide-hiv-aids-statistics.htm

Here is a link to how many are dying and effected with the HIV Virus

Good people in the Catholic Church based on their religious beliefs demand of Catholics that they do not use condoms and command them to procreate to fill the world with gods children. This in turn spreads this awful disease at a terrifying rate all because of a religious belief! This to me is one of the greatest evils the Catholic Church has inflicted on the world!

Now you can either bury your head in the sand and say its not just religion, but I have more faith in the basic decency of human nature to believe no good person would order such a thing unless they have belief in the divine and claim to know its mind!

Whomever reads these posts can make up their own minds but I am steadfast in my that

l. With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion."

Your comeback, once again, is an example of an outrageous church policy.

I'm sure you do have faith in the basic decency of human nature. It sure sounds that way.

Lucky break that - evolution giving us a basic decency!

jaffusmax · 30-03-2015 01:43PM

MaxWig wrote: »

jaffusmax wrote: »

Your comeback, once again, is an example of an outrageous church policy.

I'm sure you do have faith in the basic decency of human nature. It sure sounds that way.

Lucky break that - evolution giving us a basic decency!

Most species like apes, elephants, dolphins show common solidarity, decency and concern for each other!

MaxWig · 30-03-2015 01:48PM

jaffusmax wrote: »

MaxWig wrote: »

Most species like apes, elephants, dolphins show common solidarity, decency and concern for each other!

And the tendency, every now and then, to destroy each other!

Is there no god?

Oh the humanity!

jaffusmax · 30-03-2015 01:56PM

MaxWig wrote: »

And the tendency, every now and then, to destroy each other!

Is there no god?

Oh the humanity!

I'm pretty positive that if dolphins create some sort of aquatic dolphin god they would have wars and genocides too!

Oh the Dophinity

galljga1 · 30-03-2015 01:57PM

silverharp wrote: »

I only need to show that they were independant . I have given you examples brehon law pre dated Christianity in Ireland so even a basic society could come up with basic right and wrong ideas.
I should have added that the Greek system developed from the Egyptian system there are examples of theft cases under Rameses ix which was the 12 hundreds bce.

Indeed the Greeks were influenced by the Egyptians. Coincidentially, so was MOSES.

At the risk of getting infracted myself, I have to ask: can you get infracted for being an idiot? Although I am on his ignore list, I cannot help but respond to idiotic arguments.

MaxWig · 30-03-2015 02:12PM

jaffusmax wrote: »

MaxWig wrote: »

I'm pretty positive that if dolphins create some sort of aquatic dolphin god they would have wars and genocides too!

Oh the Dophinity

I think what I find a little frightening about your position, is it hints at a belief that you (not you specifically, but this position ) feel you are incapable of an evil act.

You feel you are good (again - not you specifically) - and as a good person who is free from religion, you are only putting goodness in the world. You may make a mistake, but you'll realise and apologise. Oopsie!!

But really, you are guilt free ( and of course those who are 'good' are also free to judge. Why wouldn't they be? )

But we all know, that given a choice between having something dreadful happen to you, or the guy next to you - you're gonna pick the guy next to you.

Is that common decency? Or is that the grim reality of existence.

silverharp · 30-03-2015 02:13PM

galljga1 wrote: »

Indeed the Greeks were influenced by the Egyptians. Coincidentially, so was MOSES.

At the risk of getting infracted myself, I have to ask: can you get infracted for being an idiot? Although I am on his ignore list, I cannot help but respond to idiotic arguments.

The Egyptian system goes back to 3000 bce . if I am to believe the tone of the argument is that a legal system without moses would be impossible. The more likely explanation is that to run any urban or trade based society one needs laws against theft , murder etc.
As was mentioned before the mosaic law probably developed out of Egyptian law

jaffusmax · 30-03-2015 02:20PM

MaxWig wrote: »

I think what I find a little frightening about your position, is it hints at a belief that you (not you specifically, but this position ) feel you are incapable of an evil act.

You feel you are good (again - not you specifically) - and as a good person who is free from religion, you are only putting goodness in the world. You may make a mistake, but you'll realise and apologise. Oopsie!!

But really, you are guilt free ( and of course those who are 'good' are also free to judge. Why wouldn't they be? )

But we all know, that given a choice between having something dreadful happen to you, or the guy next to you - you're gonna pick the guy next to you.

Is that common decency? Or is that the grim reality of existence.

I think we discussed earlier that I would never make the claim that non belief in religion leads to paradise. I do make the claim that religion brings out the worst in otherwise good people and getting rid of it would be one less (but big) problem blighting humanities progress!

silverharp · 30-03-2015 02:23PM

MaxWig wrote: »

jaffusmax wrote: »

I think what I find a little frightening about your position, is it hints at a belief that you (not you specifically, but this position ) feel you are incapable of an evil act.

You feel you are good (again - not you specifically) - and as a good person who is free from religion, you are only putting goodness in the world. You may make a mistake, but you'll realise and apologise. Oopsie!!

But really, you are guilt free ( and of course those who are 'good' are also free to judge. Why wouldn't they be? )

But we all know, that given a choice between having something dreadful happen to you, or the guy next to you - you're gonna pick the guy next to you.

Is that common decency? Or is that the grim reality of existence.

I know thst even low crime societies like japan or switzerland lock their doors and have bank vaults and police forces. Whatever way you set it up the american saying of "am armed society is a polite society" holds.

galljga1 · 30-03-2015 02:25PM

silverharp wrote: »

The Egyptian system goes back to 3000 bce . if I am to believe the tone of the argument is that a legal system without moses would be impossible. The more likely explanation is that to run any urban or trade based society one needs laws against theft , murder etc.
As was mentioned before the mosaic law probably developed out of Egyptian law

Seems entirely logical to me.

I cannot find the link but from memory the 10 commandments are a steal from the book of the dead. Now how would Moses the Egyptian prince have come across the book of the dead? And I dare not mention Horus and Osiris.

galljga1 · 30-03-2015 02:35PM

This is off topic so apologies but you guys may be a good pool to whom to pose this query. A number of years ago, I read a book about the foundation of freemasonry tracing it back to ancient Egypt and forward to modern times through various religious change. It also lists a number of religions (i think in the region of 20 or so) having virgin births, miracle doers, death and resurrection etc. It was an interesting read and I would like to get it again.

Any ideas of the name?

hinault · 30-03-2015 03:41PM

silverharp wrote: »

I only need to show that they were independant . I have given you examples brehon law pre dated Christianity in Ireland so even a basic society could come up with basic right and wrong ideas.
I should have added that the Greek system developed from the Egyptian system there are examples of theft cases under Rameses ix which was the 12 hundreds bce.

No one is arguing that Brehon society in Ireland predated Christianity in Ireland.

I agree with you that society can derive laws.

What isn't in any doubt is that the Mosaic Law predated Brehon Law, Roman Law and Greek Law.

jaffusmax · 30-03-2015 03:48PM

hinault wrote: »

No one is arguing that Brehon society in Ireland predated Christianity in Ireland.

I agree with you that society can derive laws.

What isn't in any doubt is that the Mosaic Law predated Brehon Law, Roman Law and Greek Law.

Does a law being older give them authority over others or make it divine? Unlike the ten commandments there are actually evidence of the below laws, and they were written on stone what a coincidence but no sign of gods handwriting on them!

In fact I would argue the mosaic laws are just plagiarized copies of pre-existing laws!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu

The Code of Ur-Nammu is the oldest known law code surviving today. It is from Mesopotamia and is written on tablets, in the Sumerian language c. 2100–2050 BC.

silverharp · 30-03-2015 04:01PM

hinault wrote: »

No one is arguing that Brehon society in Ireland predated Christianity in Ireland.

I agree with you that society can derive laws.

What isn't in any doubt is that the Mosaic Law predated Brehon Law, Roman Law and Greek Law.

OK but it doesn't tell me anything . the only possibly unique thing about Mosaic law is the ability to commit an offence against a deity. Otherwise other legal systems in the region predate the Jewish one. Israel was intended to be a theocracy not a monarchy.

hinault · 30-03-2015 04:10PM

silverharp wrote: »

OK but it doesn't tell me anything . the only possibly unique thing about Mosaic law is the ability to commit an offence against a deity. Otherwise other legal systems in the region predate the Jewish one. Israel was intended to be a theocracy not a monarchy.

Honour your mother and your father is not something which is set in law anywhere to the best of my knowledge.

jaffusmax · 30-03-2015 04:13PM

hinault wrote: »

Honour your mother and your father is not something which is set in law anywhere to the best of my knowledge.

Nor should it be, abusive and violent parents do not deserve to be honoured!

marienbad · 30-03-2015 04:55PM

hinault wrote: »

No one is arguing that Brehon society in Ireland predated Christianity in Ireland.

I agree with you that society can derive laws.

What isn't in any doubt is that the Mosaic Law predated Brehon Law, Roman Law and Greek Law.

And the significance is that is what ?

galljga1 · 30-03-2015 05:10PM

marienbad wrote: »

And the significance is that is what ?

We need to set up a club of hinault ignored members who cannot help but respond to idiotic posts even though the responses will not be seen.

Any other potential members?

jaffusmax · 30-03-2015 05:12PM

galljga1 wrote: »

We need to set up a club of hinault ignored members who cannot help but respond to idiotic posts even though the responses will not be seen.

Any other potential members?

He has done more with his posts for the Atheist cause then anyone else here!

MaxWig · 30-03-2015 05:19PM

jaffusmax wrote: »

He has done more with his posts for the Atheist cause then anyone else here!

Cause?

Was that a slip Jaffus???

jaffusmax · 30-03-2015 05:30PM

MaxWig wrote: »

Cause?

Was that a slip Jaffus???

I'm speaking for myself as a Militant Atheistic! :P

marienbad · 30-03-2015 05:50PM

galljga1 wrote: »

We need to set up a club of hinault ignored members who cannot help but respond to idiotic posts even though the responses will not be seen.

Any other potential members?

Can you see if you are on someone's ignore list ?

djerk · 30-03-2015 11:07PM

Life and mind, mind and life?

I brought up questions that challenge myself and my entire being. I don't think anyone even cared to answer, it's the usual rhetoric. Religion is a piece of mind.. through space and time, not peace, for our minds.

The world is lacking in self definition, common sense and intuition. It relies on submission and tradition, and lack of experience to change at all.

Each time we try to move a little bit forward, we have religious dogma beating the rest of us down.

Oh ye devil worshipers, thine witches upon which thorns i bleed! burn them all! burn all those who made this thing unto which i speak!

obplayer · 30-03-2015 11:26PM

hinault wrote: »

No one is arguing that Brehon society in Ireland predated Christianity in Ireland.

I agree with you that society can derive laws.

What isn't in any doubt is that the Mosaic Law predated Brehon Law, Roman Law and Greek Law.

Just as astrology predated astronomy and alchemy predated chemistry.

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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