Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

jaffusmax · 28-03-2015 02:26PM

MaxWig wrote: »

People claim authority. They say they know the correct way to live. Some look to this book or that book. Some to science, some to politics.

None of them are telling the truth. So we each follow the one that provides us the surest route to our own heroism. The one that allows us to look favourably upon ourselves.

Preciously why we should use our innate intelligence and follow what the evidence shows us to be true.

jaffusmax · 28-03-2015 02:29PM

MaxWig wrote: »

If people didn't feel they needed religion, I'm sure they'd abandon it

Evolution is a long process, homo sapiens are only occupying a tiny fraction of the time that the earth has been hospitable to life.

Delirium · 28-03-2015 02:58PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Well I was going to come back to a point raised earlier but the thread has taken a turn for the worst since. I'm not sure it's worth trying g to have a civilised discussion with some of the posters here. On both sides their a refusal to budge from any position and let the discussion developed.
The atheist side seems not so much to lack a belief in God as a it's driven by a hatred of religion, the theist side seem not to be interested if discussing God as engaging in special pleading.
I might come back if the idiots who seem to regard religion as the greatest evil cop on and the theists stop refuting with " but....God"

And for a while their we were playing so nice!

Please don't refer to posters on the thread as idiots.

Thanks for your attention.

MaxWig · 28-03-2015 03:40PM

jaffusmax wrote:

Evolution is a long process, homo sapiens are only occupying a tiny fraction of the time that the earth has been hospitable to life.

What's evolution got to do with anything? Apart from the fact that its got us into this bind in the first place

jaffusmax · 28-03-2015 03:52PM

MaxWig wrote: »

What's evolution got to do with anything? Apart from the fact that its got us into this bind in the first place

Evolution predicts that when something that was once vital to survival become irrelevant and useless it gets discarded! I nominate Religion as a candidate for the evolutionary trash heap!

MaxWig · 28-03-2015 04:01PM

jaffusmax wrote:

Preciously why we should use our innate intelligence and follow what the evidence shows us to be true.

And you have evidence that if religion is abandoned, the world will be a better place?

jaffusmax · 28-03-2015 04:04PM

MaxWig wrote: »

And you have evidence that if religion is abandoned, the world will be a better place?

Unlike religion I do not make prophecies or predictions, but going on the past history of religion things could not get any worse without it!

MaxWig · 28-03-2015 04:20PM

jaffusmax wrote:

Evolution predicts that when something that was once vital to survival become irrelevant and useless it gets discarded! I nominate Religion as a candidate for the evolutionary trash heap!

Religion was vital to survival? When?

MaxWig · 28-03-2015 04:20PM

jaffusmax wrote:

Unlike religion I do not make prophecies or predictions, but going on the past history of religion things could not get any worse without it!

I do not make predictions but my prediction is ...........

indioblack · 28-03-2015 04:42PM

MaxWig wrote: »

People claim authority. They say they know the correct way to live. Some look to this book or that book. Some to science, some to politics.

None of them are telling the truth. So we each follow the one that provides us the surest route to our own heroism. The one that allows us to look favourably upon ourselves.

The relevance to this book is in the thread.
I don't know if none of them are telling the truth. I would have to be the possessor of absolute truth to judge them.

MaxWig · 28-03-2015 04:48PM

indioblack wrote:

The relevance to this book is in the thread. I don't know if none of them are telling the truth. I would have to be the possessor of absolute truth to judge them.

I don't mean they're lying as such. I mean they claim to know a way to live that offers the greatest chance of transcending our situation.
The way each of us lives is contrived though

jaffusmax · 28-03-2015 05:34PM

MaxWig wrote: »

I do not make predictions but my prediction is ...........

Lol

There is a difference between a prediction based of supernatural insight and a calculated prediction based on evidence.
Many scientific theories have made predictions that turned out to be true.
Maybe I should have said, unlike religion I do not make supernatural prediction's.

Would you get on a plane if an astrologer said go ahead its fine or if a meteorologist said no a hurricane is coming stay on the ground?

jaffusmax · 28-03-2015 05:41PM

MaxWig wrote: »

Religion was vital to survival? When?

It was vital for survival in times were u would be put to death for not believing in the gods/god of your same tribe/society. And I'm sure it may have provided comfort and security in times when natural disasters, plague and war was very prevalent were unexplainable events.

tommy2bad · 28-03-2015 06:08PM

silverharp wrote: »

but imagine or even if you do accept that Christianity and Judaism are false. Then it would be insanity to look to them for moral guides as it would be to base a society on any primitive society. Again I will revert to the blow back that homosexual people have had to suffer for the last several hundred years.

Every society since time began is based on a primitive society, that's how society works, we build on the foundations of what went before.
The alternative is a year zero policy, they tried that in Cambodia, didn't end well!

MaxWig · 28-03-2015 06:09PM

jaffusmax wrote:

It was vital for survival in times were u would be put to death for not believing in the gods/god of your same tribe/society. And I'm sure it may have provided comfort and security in times when natural disasters, plague and war was very prevalent were unexplainable events.

So it was vital to agree with those in power? Some things never change.

Are you saying that it was acceptable, even vital to be religious when death was unexplainable, but now we understand death we shouldn't need any solace.
As though a scientific explanation provides comfort for the situations we find ourselves in. That is my point. For all our progress nothing changes. That's the bad joke at the heart of our reality. We have so much knowledge, but it doesn't protect us from our fears.
Our scientific endeavour is not much use on our deathbed. Or by the graveside.

Harika · 28-03-2015 06:12PM

MaxWig wrote: »

Religion was vital to survival? When?

Religion bound and binds people together, at a time where tribes where rampaging through the land a single person or family was lost, but people massed together could withstand such a foe. But who should be the leader, this defo would be a major problem, but who is better for that than someone who was told by god, cause if you don't obey, thunder or no eternal life.

MaxWig · 28-03-2015 06:12PM

jaffusmax wrote:

There is a difference between a prediction based of supernatural insight and a calculated prediction based on evidence. Many scientific theories have made predictions that turned out to be true. Maybe I should have said, unlike religion I do not make supernatural prediction's.

Predicting a utopia based on the eradication of religion is pretty far out. Supernatural or not.
Sounds nice in a John Lennon song. No religion, no borders, no differences among us. Sure. Sounds amazing. But it is not realistic

jaffusmax · 28-03-2015 06:17PM

MaxWig wrote: »

So it was vital to agree with those in power? Some things never change.

Are you saying that it was acceptable, even vital to be religious when death was unexplainable, but now we understand death we shouldn't need any solace.
As though a scientific explanation provides comfort for the situations we find ourselves in. That is my point. For all our progress nothing changes. That's the bad joke at the heart of our reality. We have so much knowledge, but it doesn't protect us from our fears.
Our scientific endeavour is not much use on our deathbed. Or by the graveside.

If religion gives people solace and a sense of warmth in the face of death then I am genuinely happy for them and wish them well but keep please keep their delusion to themselves . I draw the line at being told damnation awaits the rest of us when the curtain falls and that we need to repent and accept their god into our hearts. This is what religions do, it not uncommon to have priests hover near the dying to try and "save" a soul before it passes on!

tommy2bad · 28-03-2015 06:18PM

indioblack wrote: »

You say you have no problem reconciling the existence of god with the reality you experience.
Why is this not a problem for you?

Why would it be? I might have difficulty reconciling superman with reality but as God is not superman, that's not an issue. I think you presume I believe in some variation of superman, can't blame you, a lot of believers treat God like this and when Clark Kent / Jesus const come flying down to swoop them up, fix their kidney or fix it so United win the game fall back into blaming themselves or making excuses like it wasn't " for the best" .
That God has no trace in reality.

tommy2bad · 28-03-2015 06:21PM

silverharp wrote: »

I disagree ,people move on , Christians do not. Who is legally allowed discriminate against gay people? Religious schools and other organisations. Who will as an organised body oppose gay marriage? Christians will.

In fact Christians do move on, Christianity itself is a move on from Judaism. The movement might be glacial slow but their is movement.

silverharp · 28-03-2015 06:23PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Every society since time began is based on a primitive society, that's how society works, we build on the foundations of what went before.
The alternative is a year zero policy, they tried that in Cambodia, didn't end well!

I dont know how you read that into what I said. the more a society advances the possibility exists to drop ideas that are wrong or backward. Religious people are stuck with the backward ideas. which is also one of the many indicators that the particular religion is wrong in the first place

jaffusmax · 28-03-2015 06:25PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

In fact Christians do move on, Christianity itself is a move on from Judaism. The movement might be glacial slow but their is movement.

And atheism is a move on from theism! Monotheist did well to get it down to one god but they took it one god too far!

tommy2bad · 28-03-2015 06:29PM

jaffusmax wrote: »

If religion gives people solace and a sense of warmth in the face of death then I am genuinely happy for them and wish them well but keep please keep their delusion to themselves . I draw the line at being told damnation awaits the rest of us when the curtain falls and that we need to repent and accept their god into our hearts. This is what religions do, it not uncommon to have priests hover near the dying to try and "save" a soul before it passes on!

Ahh the old generalised ad hominem, a cheap attempt to portray atheists as superior , smarter, less deluded more realist than the poor ddeluded frightened primitives!
Don't patronize me with your indulgence. If you truly believe religion is so dangerous be man enough to insist it's wiped out. Not left as a folk memory which might return with all its evil intensity if things get rough enough.

jaffusmax · 28-03-2015 06:37PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Ahh the old generalised ad hominem, a cheap attempt to portray atheists as superior , smarter, less deluded more realist than the poor ddeluded frightened primitives!
Don't patronize me with your indulgence. If you truly believe religion is so dangerous be man enough to insist it's wiped out. Not left as a folk memory which might return with all its evil intensity if things get rough enough.

I'm just being as honest as I can be, I would not dare try take anyone belief off them just don't expect others to believe it too!
Religion takes away people right to die in peace! Not so long ago churches refused to bury unbaptized baby on church grounds or those that committed suicide! Not only did parents have their children die tragically on them they had to endure the mental torture of being told their child was not welcome on church property and heaven!

MaxWig · 28-03-2015 06:41PM

silverharp wrote:

I dont know how you read that into what I said. the more a society advances the possibility exists to drop ideas that are wrong or backward. Religious people are stuck with the backward ideas. which is also one of the many indicators that the particular religion is wrong in the first place

We're all 'wrong'. We're all stuck with backward ideas. Or, more accurately, we're lumbered with an animal psychology that ensures we act within a narrow focus that serves our own individual needs first and foremost.

That is not to say that we don't continue to grow in terms of our knowledge of our world, and ourselves. Religion may well fade into the blackness at some point, but suggesting that it is the 'reason' people are backwards is not correct.

Homophobia and other prejudices exist without religion.

MaxWig · 28-03-2015 06:43PM

Harika wrote:

Religion bound and binds people together, at a time where tribes where rampaging through the land a single person or family was lost, but people massed together could withstand such a foe. But who should be the leader, this defo would be a major problem, but who is better for that than someone who was told by god, cause if you don't obey, thunder or no eternal life.

Finding a leader is never a problem for a group of humans. Stick fifty in a warehouse, lock the door, and call back 24/hours later. You'll see a leader

silverharp · 28-03-2015 07:02PM

MaxWig wrote: »

We're all 'wrong'. We're all stuck with backward ideas. Or, more accurately, we're lumbered with an animal psychology that ensures we act within a narrow focus that serves our own individual needs first and foremost.

That is not to say that we don't continue to grow in terms of our knowledge of our world, and ourselves. Religion may well fade into the blackness at some point, but suggesting that it is the 'reason' people are backwards is not correct.

Homophobia and other prejudices exist without religion.

you have a strange way of arguing. we are stuck with the fact that ignorant parents can raise ignorant kids but at the same time we live in an open society where there can be progression. the church is an obstacle but you seem to be saying ignore church prejudice because there are other types. And remember the church is made up of smart people not the kunckle draggers that beat gay people up outside pubs. Also the knuckle draggers do not lobby the government nor do they get media time.

MaxWig · 28-03-2015 07:31PM

That's my point. I don't believe the church is made up of the knuckle draggers you portray.
I don't believe the homophobic attacks you refer to can be blamed on the church, although obv I can't speak with any certainty about such things.
My parents generation were 'religious'/but I never felt my parents were ignorant. Or do I feel ignorant myself.

The church contains homophobes, homosexuals, professors and 'knuckle draggers' too I'm sure.
Religion is as much to blame for someone religious being violent as it is for the catholic professor's PhD.

hinault · 28-03-2015 08:21PM

obplayer wrote: »

Evidence that it did? Oh, sorry, I forgot that religious people don't do evidence. They just "know".

Evidence that it didn't?

hinault · 28-03-2015 08:22PM

Harika wrote: »

No idea.

Which translates to zero.

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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