Finland does education right so why not copy them?

steddyeddy · 25-03-2015 01:25AM #1

Finland has one of the smallest gaps between rich and poor students in the developed world. It's schools consistently rank high on the world stage. There are many variables in the Finnish system. They have no curriculum (no state curriculum), no fee paying schools and most important in my opinion all teachers require a masters to teach.

Now the last one is something we could implement next month if we wanted to. No disrespect to the many hard working teachers out there but there's a lot who have no passion for the job or subject or can't teach the subject. I can only talk about science here but if you want to teach science (chemistry, biology. ect) you can leave with a general science degree. Science in UCD say is four years. You're hardest year is your fourth year and say if you pick biochemistry you do most biochemistry in fourth year. If you want to be a teacher you can leave out this year (the one with the most science) and do a Hdip.

Would it not be better to ensure a masters level qualification? By the way I'm not saying teaching is an easy job. I volunteered as a teacher for months and It's certainly not something I could do.

Mint Aero · 25-03-2015 01:30AM

No one likes a copy cat. Or even a telly telly tattler or a lier lier pants on fire for that matter.

You got that OP? :mad:

Iranoutofideas · 25-03-2015 01:34AM

Having brought up this exact thing in a university here I was told - "Outside ideas are considered "dangerous"."

kneemos · 25-03-2015 01:36AM

It's not that difficult academically really,technique is more important than degrees.
Plus the unions call the shots regarding any changes.

Atlantic Dawn · 25-03-2015 01:36AM

There's a lot to be said about a committee meeting to decide a new unproven way to fix a problem that has already been solved in most of the modern world.

steddyeddy · 25-03-2015 01:36AM

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

Having brought up this exact thing in a university here I was told - "Outside ideas are considered "dangerous"."

There have been many attempts to redesign the science curriculum too all met with huge resistance. As a lecturer in UCD tells first years when they come in "I don't care if you think you know biology, you don't know biology if you learned through the leaving cert. Real biology is similar to chemistry. Not the ecology and plant parts they learn in school.

steddyeddy · 25-03-2015 01:38AM

Could schools not start to only hire teachers with masters?

FrStone · 25-03-2015 01:43AM

Teachers are paid more and have less contact hours in the Finish system. It won't do to just implement parts of the system, like a master requirement for teachers. All parts should be implemented not just parts that suit us.

I don't think we have the political will to move towards the Finish system in Ireland. We seem to be copying many of the failed policies of the UK, like more inspections for teachers.

Teachers are generally respected in Finland, whereas teaching work in Ireland is very much becoming a casual job, with no security and relatively low pay and little respect from the general public.

I'd disagree with your idea that teachers should have a huge knowledge of the subject matter. Much more emphasis should be put on pedagogy.

Steddy, this isn't the first topic you've started about education, you really seem to have a bee in your bonnet about it.

4zn76tysfajdxp · 25-03-2015 01:45AM

One issue that will be brought up is that gifted Finnish students don't get skipped ahead and are left to their own devices.

It's not true. But it'll be brought up.

steddyeddy · 25-03-2015 01:48AM

FrStone wrote: »

Teachers are paid more and have less contact hours in the Finish system. It won't do to just implement parts of the system, like a master requirement for teachers. All parts should be implemented not just parts that suit us.

I don't think we have the political will to move towards the Finish system in Ireland. We seem to be copying many of the failed policies of the UK, like more inspections for teachers.

Teachers are generally respected in Finland, whereas teaching work in Ireland is very much becoming a casual job, with no security and relatively low pay and little respect from the general public.

I'd disagree with your idea that teachers should have a huge knowledge of the subject matter. Much more emphasis should be put on pedagogy.

Steddy, this isn't the first topic you've started about education, you really seem to have a bee in your bonnet about it.

I have a bee in my bonnet about it because I know a lot of people who had their dreams destroyed by it. I had science teachers that nearly turned me off science.

Well they should not be able to teach chemistry with a general science degree!! I think the fact that they do a masters would at least be testament to the fact that they have passion in the subject.

harney · 25-03-2015 01:48AM

You don't need a degree in the UK to go for a masters, so meh!

25-03-2015 01:48AM

Finland are now moving away from subjects to topics, that's a long way from where we're going towards. Also their system doesn't have the same sentimentality that we for some reason cling to.

dogcat · 25-03-2015 01:49AM

Jeffrey Wet Radius wrote: »

One issue that will be brought up is that gifted Finnish students don't get skipped ahead and are left to their own devices.

It's not true. But it'll be brought up.

Despite if a student is ahead, I don't think they should be skipped ahead unless they know everything there is to k ow in a certain year. For example a native French speaker in Ireland shouldn't have to start learning the basics of something they already know.

YFlyer · 25-03-2015 01:49AM

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

Having brought up this exact thing in a university here I was told - "Outside ideas are considered "dangerous"."

Exactly. College of Education Departments will want to do their owe research and submit papers even though successful teaching models have been used elsewhere.

steddyeddy · 25-03-2015 01:51AM

Elsewhere? The leaving cert is used in Libya if I'm not mistaken.

YFlyer · 25-03-2015 01:54AM

I'm saying the teaching system not what countries acknowledge the LC results.

Peregrine · 25-03-2015 01:54AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Elsewhere? The leaving cert is used in Libya if I'm not mistaken.

In one school

I wonder if they got French papers with English and Irish on them..

steddyeddy · 25-03-2015 01:56AM

If pay increased as well as a reduction in contact hours would teachers be happy to do a masters?

Sheldons Brain · 25-03-2015 01:57AM

Whatever the detail here, one very valid point is a general unwillingness to learn from other places and in particular the continued reference to often inappropriate UK examples when places like Finland, Denmark or even Singapore are countries of about similar size with very successful policies in many cases.

steddyeddy · 25-03-2015 02:07AM

harney wrote: »

You don't need a degree in the UK to go for a masters, so meh!

For what masters?

jackofalltrades · 25-03-2015 03:00AM

FrStone wrote: »

Teachers are paid more and have less contact hours in the Finish system.

They seem to start on roughly the same salary, but the upper end of the pay scale in Ireland is a lot higher then Finland.
Are you talking about an hourly rate?

Jeffrey Wet Radius wrote: »

One issue that will be brought up is that gifted Finnish students don't get skipped ahead and are left to their own devices.

It's not true. But it'll be brought up.

They don't seem to get any special treatment and are encouraged to help out the weaker students.

Cookie_Monster · 25-03-2015 04:27AM

Aren't we in the middle of copying the NZ system already?

johnny osbourne · 25-03-2015 04:28AM

...

Macavity. · 25-03-2015 05:02AM

I hear that Finland's educational system teaches students subjects such as Math and English through the medium of salsa dancing. Many of the teachers there are trained dancers.

Nodin · 25-03-2015 06:04AM

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Whatever the detail here, one very valid point is a general unwillingness to learn from other places and in particular the continued reference to often inappropriate UK examples when places like Finland, Denmark or even Singapore are countries of about similar size with very successful policies in many cases.

Yep, if ye want to learn about an urban transport scheme for Ireland, first thing ye do is organise a junket to Los Angeles.

Wompa1 · 25-03-2015 06:20AM

What's so tough about a Masters?

Wompa1 · 25-03-2015 06:21AM

Nodin wrote: »

Yep, if ye want to learn about an urban transport scheme for Ireland, first thing ye do is organise a junket to Los Angeles.

Jesus, No!!

Jawgap · 25-03-2015 06:21AM

The Finnish system works because it's in Finland run by Finns - we lack the national characteristics to run and embrace that type of system.

TheBeardedLady · 25-03-2015 07:37AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I have a bee in my bonnet about it because I know a lot of people who had their dreams destroyed by it. I had science teachers that nearly turned me off science.

Well they should not be able to teach chemistry with a general science degree!! I think the fact that they do a masters would at least be testament to the fact that they have passion in the subject.

Was that not down to their crappy teaching skills?

A passion for teaching is what's important here. As you said yourself, you couldn't do it. Making a subject interesting and explaining it in terms that teenagers get, even the ones that don't like science but are obliged to do it ('till the JC) or the ones who aren't academic but are required to be there by law and having the desire to do that - that's where the talent lies. Teaching is a whole, separate skills set.

People who've never taught before think anyone can do it and they're very wrong.

Teachers are not required to teach up to Master's level, they're required to teach the curriculum.

I've been taught by professors in university who obviously knew their subject but who couldn't teach.

JRant · 25-03-2015 08:09AM

Well if we're going to do anything about our poor education system then something is going to have to be done about the unions.

FrStone · 25-03-2015 08:13AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well they should not be able to teach chemistry with a general science degree!! I think the fact that they do a masters would at least be testament to the fact that they have passion in the subject.

It's a masters in education, that the Finish system look for. Not a masters in your subject area.

Finland does education right so why not copy them?

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