Finland does education right so why not copy them?

steddyeddy

Finland has one of the smallest gaps between rich and poor students in the developed world. It's schools consistently rank high on the world stage. There are many variables in the Finnish system. They have no curriculum (no state curriculum), no fee paying schools and most important in my opinion all teachers require a masters to teach.

Now the last one is something we could implement next month if we wanted to. No disrespect to the many hard working teachers out there but there's a lot who have no passion for the job or subject or can't teach the subject. I can only talk about science here but if you want to teach science (chemistry, biology. ect) you can leave with a general science degree. Science in UCD say is four years. You're hardest year is your fourth year and say if you pick biochemistry you do most biochemistry in fourth year. If you want to be a teacher you can leave out this year (the one with the most science) and do a Hdip.

Would it not be better to ensure a masters level qualification? By the way I'm not saying teaching is an easy job. I volunteered as a teacher for months and It's certainly not something I could do.

Mint Aero

No one likes a copy cat. Or even a telly telly tattler or a lier lier pants on fire for that matter.

You got that OP? :mad:

Iranoutofideas

Having brought up this exact thing in a university here I was told - "Outside ideas are considered "dangerous"."

kneemos

It's not that difficult academically really,technique is more important than degrees.
Plus the unions call the shots regarding any changes.

Atlantic Dawn

There's a lot to be said about a committee meeting to decide a new unproven way to fix a problem that has already been solved in most of the modern world.

steddyeddy

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

Having brought up this exact thing in a university here I was told - "Outside ideas are considered "dangerous"."

There have been many attempts to redesign the science curriculum too all met with huge resistance. As a lecturer in UCD tells first years when they come in "I don't care if you think you know biology, you don't know biology if you learned through the leaving cert. Real biology is similar to chemistry. Not the ecology and plant parts they learn in school.

steddyeddy

Could schools not start to only hire teachers with masters?

FrStone

Teachers are paid more and have less contact hours in the Finish system. It won't do to just implement parts of the system, like a master requirement for teachers. All parts should be implemented not just parts that suit us.

I don't think we have the political will to move towards the Finish system in Ireland. We seem to be copying many of the failed policies of the UK, like more inspections for teachers.

Teachers are generally respected in Finland, whereas teaching work in Ireland is very much becoming a casual job, with no security and relatively low pay and little respect from the general public.

I'd disagree with your idea that teachers should have a huge knowledge of the subject matter. Much more emphasis should be put on pedagogy.

Steddy, this isn't the first topic you've started about education, you really seem to have a bee in your bonnet about it.

4zn76tysfajdxp

One issue that will be brought up is that gifted Finnish students don't get skipped ahead and are left to their own devices.


It's not true. But it'll be brought up.

steddyeddy

FrStone wrote: »

Teachers are paid more and have less contact hours in the Finish system. It won't do to just implement parts of the system, like a master requirement for teachers. All parts should be implemented not just parts that suit us.

I don't think we have the political will to move towards the Finish system in Ireland. We seem to be copying many of the failed policies of the UK, like more inspections for teachers.

Teachers are generally respected in Finland, whereas teaching work in Ireland is very much becoming a casual job, with no security and relatively low pay and little respect from the general public.

I'd disagree with your idea that teachers should have a huge knowledge of the subject matter. Much more emphasis should be put on pedagogy.

Steddy, this isn't the first topic you've started about education, you really seem to have a bee in your bonnet about it.

I have a bee in my bonnet about it because I know a lot of people who had their dreams destroyed by it. I had science teachers that nearly turned me off science.

Well they should not be able to teach chemistry with a general science degree!! I think the fact that they do a masters would at least be testament to the fact that they have passion in the subject.

harney

You don't need a degree in the UK to go for a masters, so meh!

Finland are now moving away from subjects to topics, that's a long way from where we're going towards. Also their system doesn't have the same sentimentality that we for some reason cling to.

dogcat

Jeffrey Wet Radius wrote: »

One issue that will be brought up is that gifted Finnish students don't get skipped ahead and are left to their own devices.


It's not true. But it'll be brought up.

Despite if a student is ahead, I don't think they should be skipped ahead unless they know everything there is to k ow in a certain year. For example a native French speaker in Ireland shouldn't have to start learning the basics of something they already know.

YFlyer

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

Having brought up this exact thing in a university here I was told - "Outside ideas are considered "dangerous"."

Exactly. College of Education Departments will want to do their owe research and submit papers even though successful teaching models have been used elsewhere.

steddyeddy

Elsewhere? The leaving cert is used in Libya if I'm not mistaken.

YFlyer

I'm saying the teaching system not what countries acknowledge the LC results.

Peregrine

steddyeddy wrote: »

Elsewhere? The leaving cert is used in Libya if I'm not mistaken.

In one school


I wonder if they got French papers with English and Irish on them..

steddyeddy

If pay increased as well as a reduction in contact hours would teachers be happy to do a masters?

Sheldons Brain

Whatever the detail here, one very valid point is a general unwillingness to learn from other places and in particular the continued reference to often inappropriate UK examples when places like Finland, Denmark or even Singapore are countries of about similar size with very successful policies in many cases.

steddyeddy

harney wrote: »

You don't need a degree in the UK to go for a masters, so meh!

For what masters?

jackofalltrades

FrStone wrote: »

Teachers are paid more and have less contact hours in the Finish system.

They seem to start on roughly the same salary, but the upper end of the pay scale in Ireland is a lot higher then Finland.
Are you talking about an hourly rate?

Jeffrey Wet Radius wrote: »

One issue that will be brought up is that gifted Finnish students don't get skipped ahead and are left to their own devices.


It's not true. But it'll be brought up.

They don't seem to get any special treatment and are encouraged to help out the weaker students.

Cookie_Monster

Aren't we in the middle of copying the NZ system already?

johnny osbourne

...

Macavity.

I hear that Finland's educational system teaches students subjects such as Math and English through the medium of salsa dancing. Many of the teachers there are trained dancers.

Nodin

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Whatever the detail here, one very valid point is a general unwillingness to learn from other places and in particular the continued reference to often inappropriate UK examples when places like Finland, Denmark or even Singapore are countries of about similar size with very successful policies in many cases.

Yep, if ye want to learn about an urban transport scheme for Ireland, first thing ye do is organise a junket to Los Angeles.

Wompa1

What's so tough about a Masters?

Wompa1

Nodin wrote: »

Yep, if ye want to learn about an urban transport scheme for Ireland, first thing ye do is organise a junket to Los Angeles.

Jesus, No!!

Jawgap

The Finnish system works because it's in Finland run by Finns - we lack the national characteristics to run and embrace that type of system.

TheBeardedLady

steddyeddy wrote: »

I have a bee in my bonnet about it because I know a lot of people who had their dreams destroyed by it. I had science teachers that nearly turned me off science.

Well they should not be able to teach chemistry with a general science degree!! I think the fact that they do a masters would at least be testament to the fact that they have passion in the subject.

Was that not down to their crappy teaching skills?

A passion for teaching is what's important here. As you said yourself, you couldn't do it. Making a subject interesting and explaining it in terms that teenagers get, even the ones that don't like science but are obliged to do it ('till the JC) or the ones who aren't academic but are required to be there by law and having the desire to do that - that's where the talent lies. Teaching is a whole, separate skills set.

People who've never taught before think anyone can do it and they're very wrong.

Teachers are not required to teach up to Master's level, they're required to teach the curriculum.

I've been taught by professors in university who obviously knew their subject but who couldn't teach.

JRant

Well if we're going to do anything about our poor education system then something is going to have to be done about the unions.

FrStone

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well they should not be able to teach chemistry with a general science degree!! I think the fact that they do a masters would at least be testament to the fact that they have passion in the subject.

It's a masters in education, that the Finish system look for. Not a masters in your subject area.

evolving_doors

JRant wrote: »

Well if we're going to do anything about our poor education system then something is going to have to be done about the unions.

Actually all reforms in Finland are done by agreement with Unions and teachers.

Its not rocket science folks.. if you want small class sizes you gotta pay.. reforming Ireland by ramming through the failed UK system does not make it Finland.

Einhard

Three things to note:

1. Ireland's education system is actually pretty good. Of course it could (and should) be improved, but it consistently trumps the likes of the UK and the US.

2. Class sizes are hugely important. You can't compare a system in which a teacher might have 28-33 students under her charge to one in which the ratio is half that.

3. Masters are all well and good, but the fact is that, at least in secondary training, the emphasis is very much on teaching skills, rather than subject knowledge. It's assumed that one knows the subject matter. So if a person is somewhat deficient in chemistry, a Masters in Education is going to do little to rectify that.

Day Lewin

An advanced knowledge of a subject has nothing got to do with the trade of primary or secondary teacher. The critical thing is an ability to TEACH it. Some people can't teach anything - it's a very particular skill: it calls for an ability to simplify, to communicate, and to listen and watch.

To some extent, educational attainment is a self-propagating thing: a high background level of literacy (in the parents) will tend to repeat itself in the young generation.
And the children in Finland don't start formal education until 6 or 7.
http://www.businessinsider.com/finland-education-school-2011-12?op=1&IR=T
(Who pays for their pre-schooling, if any?)

Its an interesting idea, OP: and worth the thoughtful considering, for sure: there could be inspiration here.
But "keeping up with the Joneses" is a very dubious starting point.

Terri26

I know people with a PhD never mind a Master's who can't teach (very true for me at university). My good friend has a PhD in chemistry and cannot understand why he is not seen as a good teacher. He's not unfortunately and hasn't been able to secure a long term contract. It's a lot more than subject knowledge.

tritium

Terri26 wrote: »

I know people with a PhD never mind a Master's who can't teach (very true for me at university). My good friend has a PhD in chemistry and cannot understand why he is not seen as a good teacher. He's not unfortunately and hasn't been able to secure a long term contract. It's a lot more than subject knowledge.

I remember one in particular of my undergraduate science lecturers. PhD, pushing to get a senior college title (thankfully the college seemed to realise she was basically crazy and held off on that), well published and possibly the worst I've ever met in terms of ability to teach. Tldr: having a masters isn't the same as being a better teacher, actually in so.e areas, like accounting, it may actually be less useful than other options.

A first step to improving education standards here might be to acknowledge that the model based on farming needs is outdated and ask teachers (and pupils) to work for an extra 4-6 weeks of the summer, given that (at least those with tenure) are paid for it

tritium

tritium wrote: »

A first step to improving education standards here might be to acknowledge that the model based on farming needs is outdated and ask teachers (and pupils) to work for an extra 4-6 weeks of the summer, given that (at least those with tenure) are paid for it

Ha, I'd love to see how this would go down over in the teaching forum.

All this lofty talk of drastic reorganisation of teaching in Ireland...when we can't even make a few small changes to the junior cert, essentially a slightly more important summer exam.

StudentDad

The main problem with this country I've noticed over the years is getting past the, 'you're not in (insert country) now mate,' attitude.

No matter how good the idea.

SD

Wacker The Attacker

Look at them finland. They think they're great with all their bleedin' education and all.

Red Alert

tritium wrote: »

A first step to improving education standards here might be to acknowledge that the model based on farming needs is outdated and ask teachers (and pupils) to work for an extra 4-6 weeks of the summer, given that (at least those with tenure) are paid for it

A lot of this attitude comes from parents who aren't happy about childcare costs during the summer and ascribe to an attitude of presenteeism in the workplace. To be honest I learned a lot more during the summer holidays than in certain years in school. I think it's important for kids to learn to amuse themselves and value their own company.

Wacker The Attacker

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

It doesnt necessarily have to be finland but any improvement we make to the current system is more than welcome

To everyone except teachers.

Wacker The Attacker

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

To everyone except teachers.

So it would appear. How do you get around that without union breaking?

Eugene Norman

In european PISA results ireland isn't far behind Finland. It's second behind Finland in reading ability for instance.

And the idea that we should always copy other countries misses the cultural differences between countries. The Finish system might work despite the masters degree for all we know.

Eugene Norman

Jawgap wrote: »

The Finnish system works because it's in Finland run by Finns - we lack the national characteristics to run and embrace that type of system.

This. And there is too much angst over a system which is in fact working.

Jawgap

Einhard wrote: »

Three things to note:

1. Ireland's education system is actually pretty good. Of course it could (and should) be improved, but it consistently trumps the likes of the UK and the US.

2. Class sizes are hugely important. You can't compare a system in which a teacher might have 28-33 students under her charge to one in which the ratio is half that.

3. Masters are all well and good, but the fact is that, at least in secondary training, the emphasis is very much on teaching skills, rather than subject knowledge. It's assumed that one knows the subject matter. So if a person is somewhat deficient in chemistry, a Masters in Education is going to do little to rectify that.

it depends on the metrics you use and how you define the education system.

we like to kid ourselves that the system here is world class - it's not. That is not to say it's a bad system - it's middle of the road.

Or put it another way, if our system "consistently trumps the likes of the UK and the US" - how come 18 of the top 20 universities of the world are in the US or UK (the other two are in Switzerland and Canada).

Our system turns out competent graduates, but let's not pretend it's any more than it actually is.

tritium

Red Alert wrote: »

A lot of this attitude comes from parents who aren't happy about childcare costs during the summer and ascribe to an attitude of presenteeism in the workplace. To be honest I learned a lot more during the summer holidays than in certain years in school. I think it's important for kids to learn to amuse themselves and value their own company.

Yet strangely enough many other countries manage to teach this skill to their children with a much shorter summer break.....

The reasons you've posted above are not the reasons for the current system. Its a throw back to an agriculturally based Ireland where kids were most certainly not learning to amuse themselves in the summer months.

crockholm

Not entirely sure if true or not,but when speaking to Swedes about Finlands high ranking in PISA,the swedes Always seem to want to Point out that the finnish numbers are "massaged" by the fact that the Finns don't include the "special students" therefore getting a higher average.

Don't know how true that is,maybe the Swedes are just butthurt at dropping down into second World territory regards PISA.

The gifted kids issue was acknowledged as an issue by a principal there before, last i read. There are also articles saying they're left to help the weaker students. Meanwhile nobody seems to help or challenge them
If some get skipped, good, but i wouldn't call it an ideal system yet

CarpeDiem85

Blame everything on the teachers eh.

First things first. Invest in new school buildings, better resources especially ICT, invest in special education, get class sizes down/lower pupil teacher ratios etc etc etc.

Stop getting parents to fundraise the bulk of capital money a school needs to pay for simple things like water, ESB, heating when this money should be going on buying new resources.

I'll think about doing a masters when there is an incentive to do so. My friend self funded a masters which she completed over 2 years in her evenings after work.

She was due to graduate on say the 12th of December. The government cut the additional masters allowance on the 11th of December, how cheeky.

Jawgap

Eugene Norman wrote: »

This. And there is too much angst over a system which is in fact working.

Working, yes.

Delivering value? Maybe.

......imv, if we made Irish optional we'd do a lot better in terms of educational performance. The amount of resources that sucks up is unbelievable and given the level of everyday usage of language I think teaching it has failed and we need to try another way (of teaching it) - or try another way altogether.

mickstupp

Eugene Norman wrote: »

This. And there is too much angst over a system which is in fact working.

Not sure how the Irish system could be considered 'working' when the majority of students reach third level without the skills necessary to deal wth third level education. Why is it consistently shocking to them, year in year out, to hear that analysis, not regurgitation, is what's expected of them?