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How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

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Comments

  • #3932
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Sorry, but what you state isn't Christian.

    Child abuse is not Christian.
    Selling children is not Christian.
    Homosexuality is not a crime in Christianity, it was and is in law in some countries. The bible states homosexual sex is a sin, not the homosexual.

    The way you put it, it would be like using the Soviet Union under Stalin, China under Mao, or Cambodia under Pol Pot to describe what a state run by an atheist would be like.
    That would be wrong, what you describe as Christian is wrong.

    Christianity supported the idea of the ideal family. Much as we here now about gays, they didnt like it when people went against their definition of mother and father married for life with lots of children. The father works and the mothers role is to take care of children.

    The RCC had no problem being against the decriminalization of homosexuality. Relationships were between a man and a woman, we couldnt allow men and men to be together! It would damage "the family"

    The RCC also felt it was above the law and could do whatever it wanted, any attempts to reel them in is persecution. This allowed them to get away with the child abuse.

    This is what the Christians definition of marriage and family gave us, they have either been at best wrong and at worse destroying peoples lives. Why would anyone want this?

    Unless Mao and Pot had a copy of the God Delusion they followed word for word Im not seeing what atheists have got to do with it, its like comparing theists who have very little in common.


  • #3933
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    , I suspect the reason they will vote no to marriage equality for LGBT people is simply - because they can. That's all the reason they need. It doesn't have to be based on a religious or social war or anything else.
    Interesting. I'd tend to agree with that, though I'd argue it has everything to do with the religious mentality of Irish people. The reason we are having a referendum on this issue is because it would be unconstitutional not to do so; the majority of people accept that same sex marriage is an equal right in a modern and fair society - the option of a NO vote only exists by default, as in there has to be a NO vote option in a referendum.

    So then you have to ask yourself, why would people vote NO? I mean, you can be homophobic, religious, bigoted and prejudiced, and still vote YES in this referendum for equality, or simply abstain - those who are voting NO might not be any of those things I mentioned, but in fact they are worse. Because by actively voting NO in a referendum like this, they are saying that they are right and that equality is wrong, they are saying that their own personal beliefs are so right that they should overwrite equality, and they would happily enforce their beliefs on others through law, rather than simply hold their beliefs themselves like the homophobic, bigoted, religious YES voter or abstainer, without attempting to enforce them on others. This kind of thinking is borne out of religious mentality of control and a we know best attitude, and is a carry on effect of a deeply Catholic country, and a religion which never ceases to look for opportunities to enforce its doctrine on people.


  • #3934
    fran17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭fran17


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    We saw what this kind of life was like. It actually wasnt that great. Remember the child abuse, selling children, homosexuality being a crime?

    Can you show where children have this right? Why are we allowing single parents to raise children? Or are we following the christian values where children of single mothers are lesser so dont have the same rights?

    There are many types of families, there isnt 1 definition.

    EDIT: Just remembered you could rape your wife, its not as if she was going to leave you was it? She had no money anyway with having to quit her job.
    See this is the whole crux of the matter regarding a homosexuals stance on religion.It's the circle one can never square with the conscience.To accept any faith or anyone's faith is to accept ones life as immoral and sinful and this thought must be suppressed at all costs.
    This materialises itself by vilifying the church,it's teachings and attempting to dehumanise the people as crazy or uneducated.The stronger the abuse against religion the stronger the personal struggle is.


  • #3935
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    fran17 wrote: »
    See this is the whole crux of the matter regarding a homosexuals stance on religion.It's the circle one can never square with the conscience.To accept any faith or anyone's faith is to accept ones life as immoral and sinful and this thought must be suppressed at all costs.
    This materialises itself by vilifying the church,it's teachings and attempting to dehumanise the people as crazy or uneducated.The stronger the abuse against religion the stronger the personal struggle is.


    That's great. Care to get back to me re
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94771527&postcount=4015


  • #3936
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    fran17 wrote: »
    See this is the whole crux of the matter regarding a homosexuals stance on religion.It's the circle one can never square with the conscience.To accept any faith or anyone's faith is to accept ones life as immoral and sinful and this thought must be suppressed at all costs.This materialises itself by vilifying the church,it's teachings and attempting to dehumanise the people as crazy or uneducated.The stronger the abuse against religion the stronger the personal struggle is.

    The crux of the matter is people wish to force their religion on others. Vilifying and dehumanising gay people who dont cause any harm and yet allowing them to get married is persecuting Christians and they will ruin children's lives.

    You still have yet to show where children have a right to a mother and a father or explain what this 1 definition of family. Is it the same definition of family that caused misery to many people? Will we go back to taking children from their mothers so they can have the right to a real mother and father who are married? Or is it only when gay people get involved this right appears?


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  • #3937
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    fran17 wrote: »
    See this is the whole crux of the matter regarding a homosexuals stance on religion.It's the circle one can never square with the conscience.To accept any faith or anyone's faith is to accept ones life as immoral and sinful and this thought must be suppressed at all costs.
    This materialises itself by vilifying the church,it's teachings and attempting to dehumanise the people as crazy or uneducated.The stronger the abuse against religion the stronger the personal struggle is.

    'A homosexuals stance on religion' - what exactly does that mean?

    There are many religions - all with vastly differing doctrines and beliefs - so which religion are you referring to?

    There are many homosexuals - from vastly different cultures and beliefs - but apparently, according to you, all share this 'stance'.

    'Vilifying the church' - which church? Do you mean the Roman Catholic Church? Are you aware there are other Christian denominations that 'vilify' the Roman Catholic Church? A vilification which has nothing to do with sexual orientation and everything to do with the actions of that particular organisation.

    This may come as a surprise to you but Ireland is not a Roman Catholic country - it is a country with a lot of Roman Catholics and that is a very different thing. We do not have a State religion. We have a Constitution which states all citizens are equal regardless of their religion, or lack there of - this means Roman Catholic doctrine should have no place in framing our laws.

    You may not be crazy or uneducated but if you believe the Laws of the Irish Republic should be based entirely on Roman Catholic Doctrine then you certainly are a Fundamentalist.


  • #3938
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    Fran, thankfully for us, life isn't actually dictated by archaic Christian beliefs (well, not fully).

    I assume, since you want everyone to follow laws dictated by Christianity, that we should allow people to rape their wives, force women who are raped to marry their rapist, beat and stone our kids, murder gay men, never wear more than one fabric at a time, etc etc?

    I'm assuming here that you're decent enough that you do not rape your wife and kill homosexuals. So, why aren't you following YOUR beliefs, the word of YOUR god's people?


  • #3939
    Zen65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Zen65


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The bible states homosexual sex is a sin, not the homosexual.

    Only the Old Testament, i.e. pre-Christianity. The teachings of Christ as recorded in scripture make no reference to homosexuality.


  • #3940
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Zen65 wrote: »
    Only the Old Testament, i.e. pre-Christianity. The teachings of Christ as recorded in scripture make no reference to homosexuality.

    ~Is it in the letters bit....paul or somebody?


  • #3941
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    Zen65 wrote: »
    Only the Old Testament, i.e. pre-Christianity. The teachings of Christ as recorded in scripture make no reference to homosexuality.


    jesus does specifically say that the old laws stand til the end of time though. That bit is ignored though.


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  • #3942
    floggg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭floggg


    lavdad wrote: »
    No, I addressed the argument in response. I said that although some forms of sexual contact would me physically damaging to a child, others wouldn't and the only reason they would be "emotionally and mentally damaging to a child" is because of irrational social norms, the likes of which currently prohibit homosexuals from marrying. That was my argument and it is yet to be refuted.

    I really hope that someone somewhere (preferably on Harcourt Street or in Templemore) your IP address is being added to a watch list.

    Edit - Not saying you are a pedophile necessarily, but it is deeply unsettling how you cannot seem to see anything wrong in engaging in peadophillia or the abuse of minors who are incapable of giving consent.


  • #3943
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    fran17 wrote: »
    See this is the whole crux of the matter regarding a homosexuals stance on religion.It's the circle one can never square with the conscience.To accept any faith or anyone's faith is to accept ones life as immoral and sinful and this thought must be suppressed at all costs.
    This materialises itself by vilifying the church,it's teachings and attempting to dehumanise the people as crazy or uneducated.The stronger the abuse against religion the stronger the personal struggle is.

    What if there were a referendum being held on whether or not practicing religion should be outlawed?

    An extreme hypothetical scenario I admit, but just think about it for a minute. Whether or not others practice religion has no impact on me either positive or negative, but I am going to vote that it be made illegal, just because I do not agree with religion. I do not care about the terrible affect my vote could have on the lives of religious people.

    How would you feel about a person who would do such a thing?

    How do you think LGBT people should feel about no voters?

    What happened to treating others as you would like to be treated?


  • #3944
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,705 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    K4t wrote: »
    Interesting. I'd tend to agree with that, though I'd argue it has everything to do with the religious mentality of Irish people. The reason we are having a referendum on this issue is because it would be unconstitutional not to do so; the majority of people accept that same sex marriage is an equal right in a modern and fair society - the option of a NO vote only exists by default, as in there has to be a NO vote option in a referendum.

    So then you have to ask yourself, why would people vote NO? I mean, you can be homophobic, religious, bigoted and prejudiced, and still vote YES in this referendum for equality, or simply abstain - those who are voting NO might not be any of those things I mentioned, but in fact they are worse. Because by actively voting NO in a referendum like this, they are saying that they are right and that equality is wrong, they are saying that their own personal beliefs are so right that they should overwrite equality, and they would happily enforce their beliefs on others through law, rather than simply hold their beliefs themselves like the homophobic, bigoted, religious YES voter or abstainer, without attempting to enforce them on others. This kind of thinking is borne out of religious mentality of control and a we know best attitude, and is a carry on effect of a deeply Catholic country, and a religion which never ceases to look for opportunities to enforce its doctrine on people.


    Bit of a non-sequitur there.

    I'm not sure how you got from people who simply hate anyone else who is in any way different to them, to the source of this misanthropic hatred being based on a religious mentality? Some people are just spiteful, and that's all there is to it. It's not that they think "I know better", it's that they think "I am better", than everyone else, and in this case, because we happen to be talking about people who are LGBT, the people who hate everyone equally are focusing on those same people who are LGBT. They don't like the idea of homosexuality or transgender in the same way as you aren't particularly gone on religion.

    You're falling foul of your own prejudices in trying to lay all the source of this hatred on religion, when clearly that's not the case as 78% of the Irish population support marriage equality, and 82% of the Irish population identify as Roman Catholic. Clearly there's a significant overlap in the figures there, that anti-religion campaigners have yet failed to acknowledge. Instead, all they do, like you have done, is suggest that religion is the cause for homophobic sentiment in Irish society. The figures don't bear that out however.

    I suspect you're going to tell me you know better though.


  • #3945
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,775 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    What if there were a referendum being held on whether or not practicing religion should be outlawed?


    They tried it in some countries with no referendum, people still practice their faith.

    We had it here with the penal laws.


  • #3946
    floggg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭floggg


    BoatMad wrote: »
    i dont see this referendum as a LGBT thing at all. To me its a privilege and a sign of a progressive nation , that the majority should understand and agree to specific rights to facilitate a minority. too often this state has practised the tyranny of the majority, steamrollering over minorities and their cultures. This included rights of women, children, religious minorities etc

    We have a lot to answer for , us majority, we acquiesced to the creation of a partisan state, ruled by autocrats and theocrats, we accepted our " betters" knew better, We now know different and it behoves us to look carefully at these " rules" and dispense of any unnecessary and immoral ones. we cannot listen to those that would drag us back to the past, for it wasn't the " good auld past", it was a corrupt and debased one.

    It's a privilege only for the minority.

    Granting the majority the power to determine the rights of the minority doesn't feel very progressive to me.


  • #3947
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    RobertKK wrote: »
    They tried it in some countries with no referendum, people still practice their faith.

    We had it here with the penal laws.

    And how would you feel if others were to vote against your rights in a scenario such as I presented above?


  • #3948
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You're falling foul of your own prejudices in trying to lay all the source of this hatred on religion, when clearly that's not the case as 78% of the Irish population support marriage equality, and 82% of the Irish population identify as Roman Catholic. Clearly there's a significant overlap in the figures there, that anti-religion campaigners have yet failed to acknowledge. Instead, all they do, like you have done, is suggest that religion is the cause for homophobic sentiment in Irish society. The figures don't bear that out however.
    We both know that 82% of the Irish population are not practicing Catholics, or even close to being. And I'm not an anti-religion campaigner, I'm merely a critic of religion and many of its aims; I support freedom of religion and religious belief entirely. Also, I explicitly argued that religion is NOT the cause for homophobic sentiment, but rather that religion aims to enforce its own sentiments on others, and in this case it happens to be related to homophobia in the form of same sex marriage. As I said, you can be homophobic and vote YES or abstain from this referendum and allow equality to prevail, the religious mentality does not understand this and will actively oppose the referendum passing in their divine belief that they are better and that they know better.


  • #3949
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    RobertKK wrote: »
    They tried it in some countries with no referendum, people still practice their faith.

    We had it here with the penal laws.

    No we didn't.
    We absolutely did NOT.

    The Penal Laws were as a result of the United Kingdom and Ireland having a State Religion - The Anglican Church (which is Christian). Because there was a State Religion members of other religions or Christian denominations were penalised. This did NOT apply only to Roman Catholics but also to Presbyterians, Methodists, Quakers etc etc as well non-Christians such as Jews and Muslims.

    Nor were the Penal Laws only in force in Ireland - they applied across the U.K. too.

    In the Irish Free State and Republic Non-Catholics were actively discriminated against so I wouldn't be playing the sectarian card if I were you as it will blow up in your face.

    At NO point in time was religion outlawed in either Ireland or the U.K.

    Stop trying to rewrite history to justify your opposition to equality. That will also blow up in your face as there are people here who know far more about the subject than you as evidenced by the post of yours I just quoted.


  • #3950
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,775 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    No we didn't.
    We absolutely did NOT.

    The Penal Laws were as a result of the United Kingdom and Ireland having a State Religion - The Anglican Church (which is Christian). Because there was a State Religion members of other religions or Christian denominations were penalised. This did NOT apply only to Roman Catholics but also to Presbyterians, Methodists, Quakers etc etc as well non-Christians such as Jews and Muslims.

    Nor were the Penal Laws only in force in Ireland - they applied across the U.K. too.

    In the Irish Free State and Republic Non-Catholics were actively discriminated against so I wouldn't be playing the sectarian card if I were you as it will blow up in your face.

    At NO point in time was religion outlawed in either Ireland or the U.K.

    Stop trying to rewrite history to justify your opposition to equality. That will also blow up in your face as there are people here who know far more about the subject than you as evidenced by the post of yours I just quoted.

    The penal laws were designed to make people turn away from their religion to something else by the state.
    The fact is you can't make people believe something they don't believe.

    Not religion but certain things were not allowed for Catholics like education, ban on buying land, ban on being in parliament, ban on being in the legal profession, plus lots more.

    It was said at the time that Catholics could be used as slaves as they were not Christian and this is how you find people with Irish ancestry in the West Indies.
    In a little over one decade from 1641 to 1652 the Irish population fell from 1.5 million to 600,000 through killing and being exported for slavery.

    You can call it a sectarian card, you can deny the history in this country if you want. Just like Irish slavery is ignored and how being a Catholic was viewed as being non Christian.

    I wasn't even replying with anything to do with equality if you bothered checking. I was replying on how ineffective a ban on practising religion would be.
    They tried it in China but set up state versions, yet underground versions exist, you have the official church in China where the state is head of it so it can control it, but you also have millions who practice illegally and get persecuted for staying loyal to the Pope.
    China set up their own version as they knew they couldn't control it and that is what I was replying to.


  • #3951
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    fran17 wrote: »
    See this is the whole crux of the matter regarding a homosexuals stance on religion.It's the circle one can never square with the conscience.To accept any faith or anyone's faith is to accept ones life as immoral and sinful and this thought must be suppressed at all costs.
    This materialises itself by vilifying the church,it's teachings and attempting to dehumanise the people as crazy or uneducated.The stronger the abuse against religion the stronger the personal struggle is.

    I hate this idea this idea being religious and being lgbt are mutually exclusive. They're not. There are many many lgbt people who are religious.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #3952
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The penal laws were designed to make people turn away from their religion to something else by the state.
    The fact is you can't make people believe something they don't believe.

    Not religion but certain things were not allowed for Catholics like education, ban on buying land, ban on being in parliament, ban on being in the legal profession, plus lots more.

    It was said at the time that Catholics could be used as slaves as they were not Christian and this is how you find people with Irish ancestry in the West Indies.
    In a little over one decade from 1641 to 1652 the Irish population fell from 1.5 million to 600,000 through killing and being exported for slavery.

    You can call it a sectarian card, you can deny the history in this country if you want. Just like Irish slavery is ignored and how being a Catholic was viewed as being non Christian.

    I wasn't even replying with anything to do with equality if you bothered checking. I was replying on how ineffective a ban on practising religion would be.
    They tried it in China but set up state versions, yet underground versions exist, you have the official church in China where the state is head of it so it can control it, but you also have millions who practice illegally and get persecuted for staying loyal to the Pope.
    China set up their own version as they knew they couldn't control it and that is what I was replying to.

    The whole another Christian religion not being Christians is a common theme, not just catholics. Start a thread about Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses in the Christianity forum and watch as Catholics talk about how any true believers in Christ would be catholic. I would bet its common in any religion with subgroups.


  • #3953
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I hate this idea this idea being religious and being lgbt are mutually exclusive. They're not. There are many many lgbt people who are religious.

    And there are religious people that are pro LGBT, plenty in Catholicism which is rather apparent.


  • #3954
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,001 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Sorry fran17.. The little old lady does not have more right than any other voting citizen to vote in the referendum. She has the right to decide which way to cast her vote "yes or No" and that is it. We now live in a multi-cultural republic, not a Christian quasi-theocracy where one branch of it decided what was, and is, best for our country and it's citizens, with regard to Civil Law here.

    With regard to homosexuality and religion, the "NO" side seem to have no problem with accepting into their camp homosexuals who have stated that they are going to vote "NO" in the referendum, so I suspect they view those homosexuals of being able to make valued decisions with regard to traditional marriage, and not have damned those homosexuals the way you have all homosexuals. Time was, and still occasionally is, that the church tried to dehumanize homosexuals as crazy. The stronger the verbal abuse, the more determined we are to attain our goal of equality for civil marriage.


  • #3955
    StewartGriffin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭StewartGriffin


    floggg wrote: »
    It's a privilege only for the minority.

    Granting the majority the power to determine the rights of the minority doesn't feel very progressive to me.

    It's called democracy, it's not perfect but it's about the best we as a species have come up with so far.

    And please stop whining as if the LGBT community are treated as some downtrodden lower caste. They're not.

    We're holding a referendum on same sex marriage so married gay people can have the same legal rights as married heterosexual people, it looks like it will pass very, very comfortably, we're not abolishing slavery here.


  • #3956
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    StewartGriffin wrote: »
    It's called democracy, it's not perfect but it's about the best we as a species have come up with so far.

    And please stop whining as if the LGBT community are treated as some downtrodden lower caste. They're not.

    We're holding a referendum on same sex marriage so married gay people can have the same legal rights as married heterosexual people, it looks like it will pass very, very comfortably, we're not abolishing slavery here.

    Because of the way the Constitution was worded a referendum is required , but there is something fundamentally wrong where one section of society
    grants/refuses a civil right to another section of society .

    If it is a civil right that it applies to all and not something to be given . The same applied to slavery, catholics getting the vote ,women getting the vote .

    You can argue all you want about it being the equal of emancipation but it is on the same continuum.


  • #3957
    Zen65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Zen65


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    jesus does specifically say that the old laws stand til the end of time though. That bit is ignored though.

    Ignored for very good reasons, not least of which is that the Old Testament teachings in Leviticus, Exodus and Deuteronomy are clearly insane. The fact that Leviticus is the primary book in the bible which mentions homosexuality at all is the only reason (IMHO) that the book is not relegated to the waste bin where it belongs. Leviticus is a particularly despicable text.

    The other reason to ignore that quote from Matthew where Jesus talks about observing the old laws is that Jesus himself did not obey them.

    When homophobes are confronted with the prospect of homosexuals receiving equal treatment they often run to the scriptures to justify their hatred, but in doing so they neglect to hate all the others things that Leviticus tells his people to hate.


  • #3958
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    StewartGriffin wrote: »
    It's called democracy, it's not perfect but it's about the best we as a species have come up with so far.

    And please stop whining as if the LGBT community are treated as some downtrodden lower caste. They're not.

    We're holding a referendum on same sex marriage so married gay people can have the same legal rights as married heterosexual people, it looks like it will pass very, very comfortably, we're not abolishing slavery here.

    Given Ireland's historical treatment of the LGBT community prior to 90s, I do think it's a significant part of our social history to make the move.


  • #3959
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,001 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    This made my day


  • #3960
    Littlekittylou
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭Littlekittylou


    aloyisious wrote: »
    This made my day
    thanks for this!


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  • #3961
    DeVore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,387 ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    RobertKK wrote: »
    At least you don't jump to conclusions...

    I discussed with a broadcaster on RTE about guests on shows. I was told by this well known broadcaster who does current affairs that it is very hard to get people to go onto shows when they are to give equal time to both arguments and there is only a small pool of people willing to debate live on air.

    Fact is most people don't care about same sex marriage or voting age, or voting at all.
    Look at the children's referendum just 30% turn out.

    The loudest people appear in the media, most couldn't care less and it will be the same for the upcoming referendum.
    Most are fed up already before it even gets going...
    http://refutationstoantivaccinememes.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/falsebalanceNASA.png


This discussion has been closed.
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