How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

c montgomery wrote: »

Never said I agree with the premise
To be honest it doesn't bother me either way

I don't doubt that anybody who is willing to vote against the referendum for "bullying" by the yes side.

Firstly, anybody who views people arguing for their equality, even if they argue firmly, as the bullying clearly isn't sympathetic to any equality based argument.

That's not to say I believe the yes side have argued that firmly - particularly those making media appearances.

Secondly, there are few equality advocates who would view one side of a debate being challenged robustly as a greater wrong than the other side being discriminated against as a matter of law.

I therefore find these sentiments rather disingenuous - either the person making it never really supported the yes side to any appreciable effect, or they just completely fail to understand the nature of the issues and of public debate and free speech - and have no desire to even begin to try to understand them.

Let me extreme it so that it becomes clear.

"I'm not against women, I like women and they are great and I mean them no harm, but I'm against giving them the vote".


Can your really say that that person isn't harming women? Cos it seems to me that denying people equal treatment is harm.

CaptainKern wrote: »

I'd vote yes but I can't figure out how to register for voting.

http://vote.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&Itemid=35

Do it asap! Every vote counts!

has may 22nd been confirmed as the voting day as yet?

lavdad wrote: »

A child may not be physically developed enough for some forms of intercourse, but is for others. As for "physically mentally or emotionally", what evidence do you have for your assertion? Can you give an objective argument?

That is the scariest thing I have read on boards for quite some time.

StewartGriffin wrote: »

As you say yourself, you are EXTREMING it, extreme is never representative or a good example of normal behaviour, be it in religion, sex, or politics.
Here, we are not talking about the extreme, we are talking perhaps about a little old lady who wishes no harm to anyone but believes marriage should be exclusive to a man and a woman.

I won't come here to argue that she is right, but I will come here to argue that she is not against the gays and not a nasty ignorant bigot as some have tried to label all who will vote no in this referendum.

By the same token as the 20th century dawned there were perfectly pleasant older gentlemen who believed the rough and tumble of politics was better suited to men and ladies should be shielded from such nastiness. Did this stance harm women? Yes, because it denied them equality.

Our little old lady may have also believed that marriage was for life - yet here we are with divorce - which is the thing that really redefined marriage by the way - Did this position cause harm? Yes. It denied people the right to end a contract that was not in their best interests.

The introduction of Divorce meant marriage is considered, by the State, as a legal contract (as opposed to a 'sacrament') and as such has a 'get out clause'. SSM is about extending who can enter into that legal contract. Denying that ability to a particular category of citizens is to deny them equality. To deny equality is to cause harm regardless of intent.

lavdad wrote: »

She is capable of choosing though isn't she?

She's capable of choosing to swallow rat poison, but that does not mean she is consenting to kill herself.

eviltwin wrote: »

I know one of those little old ladies, my auntie who would never say anything rude or offensive about gay people but who still thinks they shouldn't be allowed marry and is therefore voting no. Is it harming people? Yes it harming my gay daughter who hates this woman now, who feels judged by her, who feel she and her girlfriend are playing second fiddle to the cousins who are in heterosexual relationships. All because she loves someone of the same sex. As her parent I feel offended and hurt by it so I can only imagine how she feels. Add every little old lady and others who will vote no and its potentially very harmful to a gay person especially if you have one or two of these people in your family, your place of work etc and you have to confront it on a regular basis.

The outcome of this referendum will send a very strong message to the gay community about how we as a society see their relationships and if its a No, well, I think its naive to think that won't cause harm to a vulnerable person.

My aunt is one of those little old ladies but in her case her sisters - 2 older and one younger - challenged her as to why she believed one of her nieces is not entitled to the same rights as her children. Her adult children told her she better not dare vote to say their cousin isn't equal to them.
She was shocked to the core but admitted she had been thinking in abstracts - homosexuality is 'wrong' as she was taught - and not considering what this meant to a now grown woman who had stayed with her every Summer as a child. A woman she loved. A woman she knew from the day she was born. Her niece. Family.

I don't know how she will vote but I do know that next June she is going to the wedding of one of her grand nieces to her partner. Her two older sisters will be there, her younger sister died of lung cancer but would have loved it.
Aunt has a choice - choose family or choose bigotry.

Lets also not forget that the majority of No voters are not "little old ladies". They are the David Quinns of the world. Well aware of what they are doing and in their mind fighting a religious and social war which requires them to fight every step against equality because to accept gays as equals is disgusting to them.

The attack dogs of the catholic church who, while they stand off wringing their hands, are perfectly willing to allow the Iona Institute represent them on the media airwaves again and again.

Little old ladies... they ain't.

DeVore wrote: »

She IS harming them, she might not be completely aware of that but it doesn't change the fact that she is DOING it.

Lets gloss over the fact that most No voters aren't nice little old ladies who aren't aware of the consequences of their actions.

When someone is walking towards me with a hot cup of coffee while looking a their phone, I'm going to shout at them. Loud and sharp enough to make them aware of the impending harm they are about to do to me.
Now, I'm the very person who insisted on the "civil discourse" rule we have on Boards... which allows this place to be a freakin' oasis of discussion in an internet full of screaming matches, so yes.. I disagree with calling people names and insulting them but I can understand why gay folk who want to get married are shouting loudly to make the coffee-carriers of society aware of the consequences of their actions.

The little old lady IS harming gay people by denying them equality. She may not know it but its understandable if someone is going to shout at her to mind what she is doing.

So who are most no voters then?
To be honest your hot coffee analogy is ridiculous,it's the same as claiming that this referendum is simply about exchanging rings and cutting a cake.
And this little old lady you don't seem to mind being abused has more right than any of use to vote no in this referendum.She and hundreds of thousands like her made this country what it is today.A life based on Christian values she raised her family with her husband.Every child in this country has a right to a mother and father figure in their lives to give them the balance and support needed to develop just as nature intended.That unfortunately doesn't happen in some cases naturally but to legislate and create a manmade circumstance for this is wrong and immoral.And that is what this referendum,if passed,will do.Redefine the family for some deluded perception of equality.

DeVore wrote: »

Lets also not forget that the majority of No voters are not "little old ladies". They are the David Quinns of the world. Well aware of what they are doing and in their mind fighting a religious and social war which requires them to fight every step against equality because to accept gays as equals is disgusting to them.

The attack dogs of the catholic church who, while they stand off wringing their hands, are perfectly willing to allow the Iona Institute represent them on the media airwaves again and again.

Little old ladies... they ain't.

Y'know, all this stereotyping of your 'typical' no voter kinda tends to miss the point that the same attitudes will still be there in society no matter what happens come referendum day. For many more people, I suspect the reason they will vote no to marriage equality for LGBT people is simply - because they can. That's all the reason they need. It doesn't have to be based on a religious or social war or anything else.

It's simply based on the fact that they feel they're now the people being ignored and excluded from society, and they're getting pissed off about it, so while everyone thought Ireland was lovely and welcoming and modern society and all the rest of it, I still see examples of the kind of frustration with being ignored that breeds an irrational hatred towards people who they perceive are being treated better in society than them, and so you get posters like this -

NSFW

http://omg.wthax.org/56Emmk.jpg


This is why I think sometimes on the Internet people can tend to be misled into a false sense of power, which feeds into the group think, that they have the referendum result in the bag, and so they can abuse "no" voters, because "yes" voters are in the majority, apparently.

I don't want to see families and friends split by this referendum, so instead of going after people who are voting no, and suggesting that nobody has come up with a valid reason why they're voting no... How about we give people enough reasons to vote "yes" instead?

That way at least, when we show people that we understand them and their concerns, they're more likely to be amenable to supporting us and our concerns. That's how a society is supposed to work - together!

Or, I dunno, we could just continue to put our head in the clouds and ignore other people, then expect them to support us, when we previously turned our backs on them.

DeVore wrote: »

Lets also not forget that the majority of No voters are not "little old ladies". They are the David Quinns of the world. Well aware of what they are doing and in their mind fighting a religious and social war which requires them to fight every step against equality because to accept gays as equals is disgusting to them.

The attack dogs of the catholic church who, while they stand off wringing their hands, are perfectly willing to allow the Iona Institute represent them on the media airwaves again and again.

Little old ladies... they ain't.

At least you don't jump to conclusions...

I discussed with a broadcaster on RTE about guests on shows. I was told by this well known broadcaster who does current affairs that it is very hard to get people to go onto shows when they are to give equal time to both arguments and there is only a small pool of people willing to debate live on air.

Fact is most people don't care about same sex marriage or voting age, or voting at all.
Look at the children's referendum just 30% turn out.

The loudest people appear in the media, most couldn't care less and it will be the same for the upcoming referendum.
Most are fed up already before it even gets going...

fran17 wrote: »

So who are most no voters then?
To be honest your hot coffee analogy is ridiculous,it's the same as claiming that this referendum is simply about exchanging rings and cutting a cake.
And this little old lady you don't seem to mind being abused has more right than any of use to vote no in this referendum.She and hundreds of thousands like her made this country what it is today.A life based on Christian values she raised her family with her husband.Every child in this country has a right to a mother and father figure in their lives to give them the balance and support needed to develop just as nature intended.That unfortunately doesn't happen in some cases naturally but to legislate and create a manmade circumstance for this is wrong and immoral.And that is what this referendum,if passed,will do.Redefine the family for some deluded perception of equality.

So we should all live by christian values even if we aren't christian? How very sharia law of you