Safety and the rules/regulations/law of open road racing.

wav1 · 20-03-2015 06:06AM

Beasty wrote: »

Maybe the day will come when we have to adopt something similar to the Ulster model, where at least the PSNI are fully bought into road racing but they have imposed some restrictions to get there

TBH I hope that situation is a long way off..I know of one rider who hasn't been successful in getting entered for a single race up North so far this year.

Lusk_Doyle · 20-03-2015 08:11AM

Cond0r wrote: »

I think it's widely known that the problem here is the Superintendent in Balbriggan. That was stated in the statement from Balbriggan CC.

Quite right. I didn't see the "Balbriggan" in the reference to the Gardai previously.

Chips Lovell · 20-03-2015 08:16AM

Fair play to Balbriggan. It must have been very hard to let their races go but I think it was the right call.

Aside from the danger of creating a precedent, I don't think any race promoter in their right mind could sign up to "road closures that aren't really road closures". On most race circuits, the majority of traffic is likely to be local traffic. You're left in a very dubious situation where the roads are meant to be closed but there's still traffic on the circuit.

Inquitus · 20-03-2015 09:12AM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Fair play to Balbriggan. It must have been very hard to let their races go but I think it was the right call.

Aside from the danger of creating a precedent, I don't think any race promoter in their right mind could sign up to "road closures that aren't really road closures". On most race circuits, the majority of traffic is likely to be local traffic. You're left in a very dubious situation where the roads are meant to be closed but there's still traffic on the circuit.

I am not sure that's correct, it depends on the legal status of the roads while under the "Road Closure Order" and the associated liabilities. If CI Insurance reaches the required 6.5m of liability and the Club concerned are indemnified against any claims that might arise, closing the roads would require little or no additional manpower to what we use today, 2 marshalls at each corner, this time with the law on their side with regards to stopping and directing traffic.

maloner · 20-03-2015 09:24AM

Also wouldn't different courses become an option with closed roads (as I understand them under these rules anyway)? More right turns are now on the menu for example.

lennymc · 20-03-2015 09:37AM

Closed roads will lead to higher running costs for organisers, and with many of them just about breaking even, I would imagine closed roads would kill off a lot of races.

maloner · 20-03-2015 09:46AM

lennymc wrote: »

Closed roads will lead to higher running costs for organisers, and with many of them just about breaking even, I would imagine closed roads would kill off a lot of races.

I agree.

CramCycle · 20-03-2015 09:47AM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Aside from the danger of creating a precedent, I don't think any race promoter in their right mind could sign up to "road closures that aren't really road closures". On most race circuits, the majority of traffic is likely to be local traffic. You're left in a very dubious situation where the roads are meant to be closed but there's still traffic on the circuit.

Inquitus wrote: »

I am not sure that's correct, it depends on the legal status of the roads while under the "Road Closure Order" and the associated liabilities. If CI Insurance reaches the required 6.5m of liability and the Club concerned are indemnified against any claims that might arise, closing the roads would require little or no additional manpower to what we use today, 2 marshalls at each corner, this time with the law on their side with regards to stopping and directing traffic.

I presume it depends on what the Gardai think of your road traffic management plan, presumably if it was a regular occurance (eg a club league) you would be expected to provide a reasonabable level of access to homes and workplaces during the races, kind of how most club leagues are run and have been run for years.

maloner wrote: »

Also wouldn't different courses become an option with closed roads (as I understand them under these rules anyway)? More right turns are now on the menu for example.

In regards to my above comments, for open races, sure but for regular events etc. I wouldn't be attempting it, I would be trying to stick to as much left turn only/mainly routes as possible.

lennymc wrote: »

Closed roads will lead to higher running costs for organisers, and with many of them just about breaking even, I would imagine closed roads would kill off a lot of races.

Depends on the nature of the closed road, what the gardai agree too and what is in your road traffic management plan. Like I said, if the road closures were granted, therefore giving powers to marshalls to stop traffic when necessary, it would not increase the cost at all as it would be exactly what it is now, only marshalls would be able to wave down traffic without fear of reprisal from some one reporting them to the Gardai for stopping traffic, so long as councils covered the admin and registration fee and the Gardai were satisfied that their presence was not needed, the only extra cost would be the advertising in the papers.

lennymc · 20-03-2015 10:06AM

CramCycle wrote: »

Depends on the nature of the closed road, what the gardai agree too and what is in your road traffic management plan. Like I said, if the road closures were granted, therefore giving powers to marshalls to stop traffic when necessary, it would not increase the cost at all as it would be exactly what it is now, only marshalls would be able to wave down traffic without fear of reprisal from some one reporting them to the Gardai for stopping traffic, so long as councils covered the admin and registration fee and the Gardai were satisfied that their presence was not needed, the only extra cost would be the advertising in the papers.

The marshalls don't normally cost anything (they may get a sandwich or lunch) so I agree that there would be no increase in cost there, but there is a background cost to getting a road closed, and even if a CC waives the fee the first time, they probably wouldnt do that every time. On top of that, if the gardai are there, they are within their rights (afaik) to charge for their time. I heard the figure of about 80 euros per hour per garda, so, for a 6 hour event, with three gardai, and closed roads and admin/advertising costs, you could be looking at about 4k.

The stephen roche crit cost about 1500 to close 1km of road in a housing estate last year iirc.

I would also imagine that it would set a precedent for all cycling events, including sportives, that there must be a road closure, which would skyjack the cost of those aswell. Mandatory road closures, while great in theory (yay we can cycle on the 'wrong' side of the road and turn right), have the potential to kill organised cycles in Ireland IMHO.

Beasty · 20-03-2015 10:12AM

Inquitus wrote: »

I am not sure that's correct, it depends on the legal status of the roads while under the "Road Closure Order" and the associated liabilities. If CI Insurance reaches the required 6.5m of liability and the Club concerned are indemnified against any claims that might arise, closing the roads would require little or no additional manpower to what we use today, 2 marshalls at each corner, this time with the law on their side with regards to stopping and directing traffic.

One of the problems I forsee with closed roads is it may restrict the length of circuit to avoid any busy roads, or alternatively you could end up having to incorporate more junctions to avoid those roads (which would mean more marshals). In addition you do have to put in place adequate diversions which may require more manpower (to avoid motorists heading up what turns into a no through road when they do hit the circuit)

There is one big plus though as it opens up additional roads that may previously have been considered too narrow - with no risk of oncoming traffic riders no longer have to worry about keeping to the correct side of the road

dermabrasion · 20-03-2015 10:48AM

How does it work in Northern Ireland? I've raced there a few times (which are very well organised IMHO), but where do the CC and the PSNI fit into the planning of a race?

Chips Lovell · 20-03-2015 10:53AM

It's not so much that additional manpower may be need to close roads but that the conditions attached meant the amount of traffic on the course wouldn't be reduced by much.

You have the situation where officially, there's a road closure order in place and participants believe it to be the case, but in actuality, there's still going to be vehicles on the circuit. I'd be very wary of that.

Cond0r · 20-03-2015 10:57AM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

It's not so much that additional manpower may be need to close roads but that the conditions attached meant the amount of traffic on the course wouldn't be reduced by much.

You have the situation where officially, there's a road closure order in place and participants believe it to be the case, but in actuality, there's still going to be vehicles on the circuit. I'd be very wary of that.

If you have the temporary road closure order, you could implement a traffic management system whereby traffic on the circuit is only allowed to travel in the direction of the race. This still allows local access, albeit with a detour in some cases, but also makes it safe for riders.

Chips Lovell · 20-03-2015 11:03AM

My understanding of the situation was that they were asked to have a traffic management system that would allow the locals come and go as they pleased without restriction.

Now maybe the person who told me that had misunderstood it, but if that's the case, it's a second good reason for not going along with it.

Beasty · 20-03-2015 12:11PM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

My understanding of the situation was that they were asked to have a traffic management system that would allow the locals come and go as they pleased without restriction.

Now maybe the person who told me that had misunderstood it, but if that's the case, it's a second good reason for not going along with it.

I suspect they had misunderstood. There was a road closure outside my own house last year to facilitate a Triathlon event, and traffic was only allowed to enter in the direction of the cyclists. I stood on one corner and was telling motorists the road was closed but they could travel that way if they avoided overtaking anyone (road was very narrow anyway). Having said that I was not a marshal, just offering "advice" (and giving "moral support" to the person who did end up trying to manage the traffic)!!

pprendeville · 20-03-2015 01:09PM

So is Stamullen going ahead for now?

Chips Lovell · 20-03-2015 01:14PM

I was in two minds about the Fingal County Council press release. I initially saw it as a mealy mouthed "not our fault gov" statement. But now I'm wondering if it may serve to put the spotlight on the people who're causing the problems. So far they've been operating in the background but they may find themselves now having to publicly defend their actions.

wav1 · 20-03-2015 01:37PM

pprendeville wrote: »

So is Stamullen going ahead for now?

See post 200

Beasty · 20-03-2015 01:38PM

pprendeville wrote: »

So is Stamullen going ahead for now?

They are certainly not cancelled at this stage, and the suggestion is they are re-routing to avoid Fingal. I guess it would be very odd for the Gardai to permit racing on the roads of Fingal simply because the race is largely in Co Meath, unless the Co Meath Gardaí accept responsibility and actively "police" the races

pprendeville · 20-03-2015 01:42PM

wav1 wrote: »

See post 200

Thanks wav. I don't mean to come across as only caring about whether races go ahead or not. I just don't have the experience in dealing with the Gardai to offer any worthwhile comments on the subject matter but what I do feel is important is building relationships with the powers that be. One would imagine that someone within CI would be designated this responsibility. I guess this matter is one for the AGM this year. Also it looks like us riders need to be a lot more conscious of what we're doing out on the roads especially if there are people out with cameras with the sole intention of creating evidence against riders but that's besides the point. The rules of the road should be adhered to.

Beasty · 20-03-2015 01:49PM

pprendeville wrote: »

I guess this matter is one for the AGM this year.

This is were we really miss a Road Commission. The problem at the CI level is road racing is only one of its many responsibilities with limited resources to deal with everything everyone thinks they should be dealing with

wav1 · 20-03-2015 04:23PM

Cond0r wrote: »

Except the ones that are on closed roads, eg. the elite and vets national championships last year.

Fair point but very much the exception.Dont think I ever seen a road closure for a normal one day race in Ireland.Exception to this was Stephen Roche GP last yr which was forced on them as a contagen of events elsewhere,The ras is not even on closed roads

CramCycle · 20-03-2015 04:34PM

MOD VOICE: I am shutting down discussion on the O'Laughlin crash in Carrick, presumably there is an investigation and until more details are released on official news sites, it will not be discussed here.

Posts will be deleted shortly.

Feel free to PM if you have any queries on this.

Cond0r · 20-03-2015 05:03PM

wav1 wrote: »

Fair point but very much the exception.Dont think I ever seen a road closure for a normal one day race in Ireland.Exception to this was Stephen Roche GP last yr which was forced on them as a contagen of events elsewhere,The ras is not even on closed roads

I think that to say that this was due to "contagion" suggests that you think the current way races are run is perfectly fine? I don't see how a crit could be run on anything other than closed roads. How could you have riders hammering around a small circuit like that with traffic on it? Clearly the road was being closed but it wasn't formalised via the Council in previous years, and last year the Gardaí finally insisted on it - probably due to lack of resources to facilitate the closure themselves.

The Rás is effectively run on closed roads, because it has a large Garda presence who close the road on a rolling basis, stopping traffic at junctions, etc.

While I think that the situation in Fingal is deplorable and that the Gardaí are being vindictive by withdrawing their support, I also think that things need to change with regard to safety at races. I think people have their heads in the sand if they think this isn't the case.

The bunch sizes in A3 and A4 this year are so huge that it seems to me that it's becoming less and less possible to run a race can safely on open roads, particularly when CI commisaires don't appear to take any action to sanction riders that ride dangerously.

As an example, this was very evident at the Boyne GP last weekend, the bunch coming down the main road at over 60km/h with riders across the road and traffic coming the opposite direction being forced to pull over. Same on the smaller roads as well, albeit at a slightly slower speed.

When that kind of stuff is going on unchecked, it becomes easier to see why the Gardaí and Councils take a view like Balbriggan and Fingal have (not that I agree with how they're going about it).

In my view, Cycling Ireland have failed miserably to act on this subject, and are maybe the most to blame considering they're supposed to be the governing body for the sport. The representative they sent to meetings with Fingal and the Gardaí didn't even have the first notion about road racing.

wav1 · 20-03-2015 05:21PM

Cond0r wrote: »

I think that to say that this was due to "contagion" suggests that you think the current way races are run is perfectly fine? I don't see how a crit could be run on anything other than closed roads. How could you have riders hammering around a small circuit like that with traffic on it? Clearly the road was being closed but it wasn't formalised via the Council in previous years, and last year the Gardaí finally insisted on it - probably due to lack of resources to facilitate the closure themselves.

The Rás is effectively run on closed roads, because it has a large Garda presence who close the road on a rolling basis, stopping traffic at junctions, etc.

While I think that the situation in Fingal is deplorable and that the Gardaí are being vindictive by withdrawing their support, I also think that things need to change with regard to safety at races. I think people have their heads in the sand if they think this isn't the case.

The bunch sizes in A3 and A4 this year are so huge that it seems to me that it's becoming less and less possible to run a race can safely on open roads, particularly when CI commisaires don't appear to take any action to sanction riders that ride dangerously.

As an example, this was very evident at the Boyne GP last weekend, the bunch coming down the main road at over 60km/h with riders across the road and traffic coming the opposite direction being forced to pull over. Same on the smaller roads as well, albeit at a slightly slower speed.

When that kind of stuff is going on unchecked, it becomes easier to see why the Gardaí and Councils take a view like Balbriggan and Fingal have (not that I agree with how they're going about it).

In my view, Cycling Ireland have failed miserably to act on this subject, and are maybe the most to blame considering they're supposed to be the governing body for the sport. The representative they sent to meetings with Fingal and the Gardaí didn't even have the first notion about road racing.

You have several points all wrapped up together in there and I would agree with some of them in particular to Cycling Irelands input.
1 The ras IS on open roads and most of the marshalls doing the stopping at junctions and lights etc are just civilian marshalls the same as any weekend.I take your point about the garda presence but its the other guys who do the junctions and not the Garda.
2 TBH I do think that most road races are run very well now that you mention it.What you refer to happening on the roads is rider behaviour and is nothing to do with how a race is run/promoted.You are mixing up 2 x totally different issues.
3 There were 88A4 riders in Boyne GP and 136 A3 riders.Whilst large I don't consider that to be excessive for the roads that were being used.
4 I am in receipt of comms report for Boyne GP and had a talk with the Garda on duty and both were very pleased with the event.
Everybody can improve and that's a fact but at the same time I wouldn't be biting off the hand that feeds the riders needs as event promoters on the road will become a very rare breed indeed,if they continue to be slammed for doing what they di,in the best and safest way they can..EG Boyne Gp had 3 x lead cars with each event and a motomarshall with each event plus more than ample static marshalls..As I said rider behaviour can in no way be attributed to a race promoter.Riders last Sunday were spoken to at the start both by myself and the comms and posts on here on boards suggested that it helped in making the race a lot less dodgy than previous weeks.

Cond0r · 20-03-2015 06:05PM

wav1 wrote: »

You have several points all wrapped up together in there and I would agree with some of them in particular to Cycling Irelands input.
1 The ras IS on open roads and most of the marshalls doing the stopping at junctions and lights etc are just civilian marshalls the same as any weekend.I take your point about the garda presence but its the other guys who do the junctions and not the Garda.

If marshals are stopping people at junctions they're in breach of the law, and without a Garda being present the person in a car would be fully within their rights to drive on. I don't think that's a good situation to be in.

wav1 wrote: »

2 TBH I do think that most road races are run very well now that you mention it.What you refer to happening on the roads is rider behaviour and is nothing to do with how a race is run/promoted.You are mixing up 2 x totally different issues.
3 There were 88A4 riders in Boyne GP and 136 A3 riders.Whilst large I don't consider that to be excessive for the roads that were being used.
4 I am in receipt of comms report for Boyne GP and had a talk with the Garda on duty and both were very pleased with the event.
Everybody can improve and that's a fact but at the same time I wouldn't be biting off the hand that feeds the riders needs as event promoters on the road will become a very rare breed indeed,if they continue to be slammed for doing what they di,in the best and safest way they can..EG Boyne Gp had 3 x lead cars with each event and a motomarshall with each event plus more than ample static marshalls..As I said rider behaviour can in no way be attributed to a race promoter.Riders last Sunday were spoken to at the start both by myself and the comms and posts on here on boards suggested that it helped in making the race a lot less dodgy than previous weeks.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not meaning to lay blame at the promoter's door. I'm also not suggesting that promoters don't have safety as their primary concern. You're also mixing two separate issues; I completely understand that it takes a huge (voluntary) effort to put on a race, and that people willing to take the lead on those things are far and few between. However, constructive criticism should to be taken on board without it being taken as 'biting off the hand that feeds it'.

With that said, I was in the A3 bunch last Sunday and I think you guys put on a great day's racing - there were certainly ample marshals and lead cars for sure.

However I have to disagree that all of the roads were suitable for a bunch of 133. On the road between the pub and the main road up the hill around the blind corner, the bunch was ditch to ditch on every lap. I can't see how that could be avoided even with riders being told not to do it. It's unrealistic to suggest that riders in a bunch of that size will ride 2 or 3 abreast while leaving space for cars to come the opposite direction, when there's not even a centre line. In a section of road like that there's a "concertina effect", and there's no way around that.

The situation on the main road in my view is different, and I completely agree is down to incredibly bad rider behaviour. Sanctions from CI commissaires should absolutely be handed out to riders riding on the wrong side of that road. However, I'm doubtful that even this will help. When the red mist of racing descends, people tend to do really stupid things and to suggest different is a little naive in my view.

I think if you polled any of the people driving cars or trucks that were forced to pull over due to the oncoming bunch they'd take a fairly dim view of bike racing.

I think given that the bunch sizes are unlikely to get smaller as popularity continues to increase, this is going to be an increasing problem.

As I see it, first and foremost CI/commisaires need to start handling the problem of dangerous riding in races, and I think promoters should consider restricting bunch sizes, or choosing roads that are larger to handle the volume -- however, I think this is not feasible in the long run and shouldn't be down to the promoters.

I think that the only solution here is that CI need to get their finger out and address this problem in a properly sustainable way by facilitating a process to organise closed roads more easily. Then promoters can manage traffic themselves (via the marshals), for example by implementing a one-way system on circuits. That way locals get their access, and racers don't have to worry about cars coming around corners.

Beasty · 20-03-2015 06:25PM

wav1 wrote: »

1 The ras IS on open roads and most of the marshalls doing the stopping at junctions and lights etc are just civilian marshalls the same as any weekend.I take your point about the garda presence but its the other guys who do the junctions and not the Garda.

I've only marshalled the final stage in Skerries which is a circuit they do 3 times, so this may not be indicative of what happens elsewhere in the race. However what I have always witnessed is the Gardai issuing instructions to close the roads. We then put in place barriers. I have always had a Guard on my corner who has dealt with drivers who kick up a fuss (which has happened quite regularly on the corners I have been on). Essentially what I have done has been under the direction of the Gardai.

It will be interesting to see if this approach is adopted at all junctions within Fingal - I suspect some of the earlier junctions are typically managed from a Gardai perspective by the guys ahead of the race on motorbikes

Cond0r · 20-03-2015 06:27PM

Beasty wrote: »

I've only marshalled the final stage in Skerries which is a circuit they do 3 times, so this may not be indicative of what happens elsewhere in the race. However what I have always witnessed is the Gardai issuing instructions to close the roads. We then put in place barriers. I have always had a Guard on my corner who has dealt with drivers who kick up a fuss (which has happened quite regularly on the corners I have been on). Essentially what I have done has been under the direction of the Gardai.

It will be interesting to see if this approach is adopted at all junctions within Fingal - I suspect some of the earlier junctions are typically managed from a Gardai perspective by the guys ahead of the race on motorbikes

Yes. I was late heading up to watch the finish last year, and arrived to a closed road well in advance of the race approaching, at the top of Shady Lane coming into Skerries. There was also a Garda present at that junction, who not so politely told me the road was closed.

bcmf · 20-03-2015 07:11PM

Beasty wrote: »

I've only marshalled the final stage in Skerries which is a circuit they do 3 times, so this may not be indicative of what happens elsewhere in the race. However what I have always witnessed is the Gardai issuing instructions to close the roads. We then put in place barriers. I have always had a Guard on my corner who has dealt with drivers who kick up a fuss (which has happened quite regularly on the corners I have been on). Essentially what I have done has been under the direction of the Gardai.

It will be interesting to see if this approach is adopted at all junctions within Fingal - I suspect some of the earlier junctions are typically managed from a Gardai perspective by the guys ahead of the race on motorbikes

I usually do Cross of the Cage. Even with a Garda presence people will do everything they can to get onto the circuit. Without a Garda presence EVEN WITH A CLOSURE ORDER it would be impossible and dangerous.

wav1 · 20-03-2015 07:47PM

Beasty wrote: »

I've only marshalled the final stage in Skerries which is a circuit they do 3 times, so this may not be indicative of what happens elsewhere in the race. However what I have always witnessed is the Gardai issuing instructions to close the roads. We then put in place barriers. I have always had a Guard on my corner who has dealt with drivers who kick up a fuss (which has happened quite regularly on the corners I have been on). Essentially what I have done has been under the direction of the Gardai.

It will be interesting to see if this approach is adopted at all junctions within Fingal - I suspect some of the earlier junctions are typically managed from a Gardai perspective by the guys ahead of the race on motorbikes

Very much the exception because its on a circuit..Every other day whens its A to B its just a rolling marshall system similar to lots of other events.There is the GARDA presence of the moto cops but they drive at the front of the race.Normal type marshalling assignments are designated in the race officials manual to a particular marshall or marshalls,so its just the same as any weekend albeit on a bigger scale.Of course there would be a garda presence passing through the main towns and citys..This I suppose is because the race enjoys a healthy support from the Garda.At the end of the day though there is a fee payable to them for their services for the 8 days.

Safety and the rules/regulations/law of open road racing.

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