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A discussion on the rules.

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Comments

  • #2282
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    If I looked at the premiership table and seen Liverpool in 4th or 5th, I wouldn't claim they were Premiership champions.

    (Much and all as I'd like them to be. :))


  • #2283
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2284
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    If the politics forum is there for more serious discussion then why are poster permitted to be left post 'witty' one liners that add nothing to the debate and attempt to drag it off topic.


  • #2285
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Oh come on ffs.

    Studies and surveys of the very people in question are 'not definitive'?

    So, when the thousands of doctors surveyed gave their top 3 answers for leaving as, working conditions, no clear career path and work/life balance, they were wrong and a couple of anonymous posters here who claimed it was about salary are right?

    What parallel universe is this we are in?


    Of course not.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_bias

    I have posted that link before, to demonstrate possible reasons why the survey doesn't tell the full story.

    There is also the target audience. Young pre-meds who have no experience of life, no ties may well cite issues like lifestyle. 50-year old doctors with three kids in college may well cite money.

    All of the above casts doubt on the survey, so you look for empirical evidence i.e. cold hard facts, to back up the survey. In this case, the cold hard facts are that the HSE cannot attract doctors with the salary on offer.

    So we ended up with a debate between one side who had a single survey on their side and another side who had cold hard facts on their side. I know which side I would pick in those circumstances.


  • #2286
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #2287
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Was the thread in question originally in the Politics Cafe forum?

    What is disappointing is that a mod stepped into the breach here to law down the standard of debate.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94534906&postcount=30

    A further mod warning later on specially mentioned that one-liners are not welcome in the debate, yet it still continued.

    I reported a post that contravened both warnings and no action was taken.

    What is the use of Mod's laying down the rules of the debate when posters continue in the same form anyway and reported posts and thus ignored. If this is the case, then merge Politics Cafe with the main forum.


  • #2288
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    jank wrote: »
    Was the thread in question originally in the Politics Cafe forum?

    What is disappointing is that a mod stepped into the breach here to law down the standard of debate.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94534906&postcount=30

    A further mod warning later on specially mentioned that one-liners are not welcome in the debate, yet it still continued.

    I reported a post that contravened both warnings and no action was taken.

    What is the use of Mod's laying down the rules of the debate when posters continue in the same form anyway and reported posts and thus ignored. If this is the case, then merge Politics Cafe with the main forum.

    Have you any specific reasoning why 'one liners' should not be allowed in political debate other than having a very serious outlook on life? If they are on message I enjoy them. Have a book or two of them from around the world. Of themselves there is nothing wrong with them, but like any other post it is how you react to them that is relevant surely?


  • #2289
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Have you any specific reasoning why 'one liners' should not be allowed in political debate other than having a very serious outlook on life? If they are on message I enjoy them. Have a book or two of them from around the world. Of themselves there is nothing wrong with them, but like any other post it is how you react to them that is relevant surely?

    You should direct that question to the mods who specifically stated users to stop using one liners as a method of debating. If we want to cultivate a culture of political discourse and debate in the main politics forum then one liner comebacks should be discouraged and left to the cafe.


  • #2290
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    jank wrote: »
    You should direct that question to the mods who specifically stated users to stop using one liners as a method of debating. If we want to cultivate a culture of political discourse and debate in the main politics forum then one liner comebacks should be discouraged and left to the cafe.

    When there isn't an appetite to discourage single words designed to deflect then I think you are barking up the wrong tree.


  • #2291
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Absolutely.
    As long as we're all treated as equals regarding our opinions.;)
    Unfortunately for you, in the real world some people's opinions are worth more than others. Society is more likely to listen to an individual educated and practised in a field than some intellectually stunted nobody who has an "opinion" on things.

    You must realise that?


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  • #2292
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Thread temporarily closed for essential maintenance. We apologise to our customers for any inconvenience. If your posts magically disappear as a result of such maintenance, feel free to take that as a sign that we should focus on the topic at hand

    I've deleted a lot of posts that were off topic. No sanctions but this is the second time in the last week or so that this thread has become derailed.

    There is a wide latitude on this thread for people to illustrate their point, but there are limits to that.

    So to be clear:

    "Do we allow X like in Y thread" type comments are fine.

    "This happened in Y but not in Z" comments are fine, but only if they add to the discussion on the rules. If you have a concern about the moderation in one of those threads please report the posts. If you are not happy with the outcome of the reported post, please PM a moderator in case it slipped through the cracks (there are an awful lot of reported posts these days).

    "I'm unhappy with the moderation in thread Y" posts are not fine and will be deleted or infracted.
    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Why, out of interest, were 2 posts just removed from this thread?

    This one in particular, a blatant abuse of the rules being discussed, i.e flaming or baiting.

    I think you've answered your own question there. Please don't drag up deleted posts or question moderation on the thread. You can PM about such deletions if they relate to your own posts


  • #2293
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    jank wrote: »
    Was the thread in question originally in the Politics Cafe forum?

    What is disappointing is that a mod stepped into the breach here to law down the standard of debate.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94534906&postcount=30

    A further mod warning later on specially mentioned that one-liners are not welcome in the debate, yet it still continued.

    I reported a post that contravened both warnings and no action was taken.

    What is the use of Mod's laying down the rules of the debate when posters continue in the same form anyway and reported posts and thus ignored. If this is the case, then merge Politics Cafe with the main forum.

    Please PM me the relevant posts and I'll take a look. Not guaranteeing that I'll take action, but I'll at least look at them. But otherwise, as above this is not the place for suggesting that no action was taken when, in your view it ought to have been.


  • #2294
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2295
    Just a little Samba
    Closed Accounts Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Just a little Samba


    Question?

    How many times do people get warned to keep threads on topic before cautions or is it a discretionary basis?

    Sorry if this isn't the sort of question I should ask here, I'll gladly pm a mod to talk about it I'm not trying to question mods, just trying to figure out how this place works as I go.


  • #2296
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    What are the rules on deleting posts?
    A poster on the Irish Water thread brought a murdered journalist into the thread in what looked like an attempt to smear water protesters.
    That post has now been deleted but the poster in question claims he didn't delete it.

    Are moderators allowed or able to delete peoples posts to save them having to issue warnings or cards to the poster in question for what could only be considered flaming or baiting?


  • #2297
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    It depends really, sometimes a few posts are deleted to clean up a mess, sometimes the mess is so big it would take all day.

    Admins, CMods and fellow forum mods can see all deleted posts.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #2298
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    K-9 wrote: »
    It depends really, sometimes a few posts are deleted to clean up a mess, sometimes the mess is so big it would take all day.

    Admins, CMods and fellow forum mods can see all deleted posts.

    So it would be quite possible that posts from say one side of an argument would be deleted by a moderator rather than them being given the obvious red or yellow cards or even bans they deserve?


  • #2299
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    So it would be quite possible that posts from say one side of an argument would be deleted by a moderator rather than them being given the obvious red or yellow cards or even bans they deserve?

    If a moderator decides to delete, card or ban a user, that is a matter within the discretion of the role. With respect, it is up to the moderators and not anyone else to decide what sanction is or is not deserved, although the input from posters via reported posts and more general feedback on this thread is very welcome.

    Actions are taken based on a number of factors including the type of breach (e.g. personal abuse, off topic etc), the forum (cafe vs elsewhere), the severity of the breach, the poster in question, the effect on the thread (was it taken in jest and responded to, or did it cause the thread to shut down/go off the rails etc), whether there are multiple reports from different users, mod warnings on the thread, the topic is particularly sensitive etc. There are probably a dozen other factors to take into account at any given stage.

    So the fact that two broad categories of breach are not treated equally does not mean there is no consistency, nor does it imply bias or favouritism etc.

    Any user unhappy with a moderator action taken against them can go to DRP. Any poster unhappy with a moderation decision or series of decisions in repsect of other posters can use PM, Feedback etc.

    The suggestion that a thread or indeed forum is being moderated partially such that one "side" has inflammatory posts deleted but the other side gets carded is a serious one. Anyone who feels that such is happening can take that complaint higher up the food chain if they wish.

    This thread is for discussion on the rules and I hope Ive covered all aspects of this issue. If you have a specific complaint to make you can do so, but this thread is not the place for it.


  • #2300
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2301
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »



    The suggestion that a thread or indeed forum is being moderated partially such that one "side" has inflammatory posts deleted but the other side gets carded is a serious one. Anyone who feels that such is happening can take that complaint higher up the food chain if they wish.

    I already have done johnny.
    I'm awaiting a response from admin.


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  • #2302
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    I already have done johnny.
    I'm awaiting a response from admin.

    Great. In which case, the rules are clear and it is not appropriate to discuss an ongoing Admin issue in this thread.


  • #2303
    lochderg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 118 ✭✭lochderg


    Just listening to Ian O'Doherty spouting his 'Man's Man' views on Newstalk-advocating elitism-between G.Hook crying 'Begrudger' and 'They're threatening the state' & this Free Marketeer(O'Doherty) confidently espousing the values of 'Me,MIne' and the tea party having their say every Monday Newstalk is leading the way in allowing the far right in the back door


  • #2304
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2305
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Then you are saying trolling and abusive posts have lead to bans that weren't announced on thread?
    I don't see how secret punishments are supposed to help illustrate to anybody the standards expected in a forum. Why not have a hard and fast rule that they are all announced? What could possibly be the advantage of secrecy?


  • #2306
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Also, why isn't "mod hat always in bold" a rule to avoid ambiguity? What advantage could there ever be not to use bold, so why not make a rule of it?


  • #2307
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2308
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Then you are saying trolling and abusive posts have lead to bans that weren't announced on thread?
    I don't see how secret punishments are supposed to help illustrate to anybody the standards expected in a forum. Why not have a hard and fast rule that they are all announced? What could possibly be the advantage of secrecy?

    Forum bans dont show up either. I appreciate that on the one hand people need to know the rules and see examples of what is and is not kosher. That is what mod warnings are intended to convey.

    On the other hand the whole purpose of moderation is not to dispense punishments but to keep the threads going. Sometimes deleting will be more condusive to debate. Other times an individual thread will need a visible presence.


  • #2309
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    This makes no sense whatsoever if a ban is issued for trolling/abuse. They can't post then anyway. How can you encourage someone who can't post?
    If it's the best way why is it applied on a discretionary basis?


  • #2310
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Forum bans dont show up either. I appreciate that on the one hand people need to know the rules and see examples of what is and is not kosher. That is what mod warnings are intended to convey.

    On the other hand the whole purpose of moderation is not to dispense punishments but to keep the threads going. Sometimes deleting will be more condusive to debate. Other times an individual thread will need a visible presence.

    Do you think there's a problem with the moderation on the site johnny?

    This thread would suggest there is.

    There's certainly at least two posters who spend their time baiting and flaming on the threads I follow, in a passive aggressive manner, and despite being reported for breaking the rules, no sanction is taken.


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  • #2311
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


This discussion has been closed.
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