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Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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Comments

  • #1442
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Dog of Tears wrote: »






    By doing what exactly?

    For me it would be very simple.
    From the top down carry out a complete root and branch survey of productivity among all management. A fundamental questioning of what is it you re doing and show me(the Minister) what it is you have done.
    By doing that you would get an overview of effectiveness and waste at management level. Which is where I perceive the main problems are.
    You do that all the way down and then you take stock and decide how to implement change, same as you would in any business...start at the roof and work down.
    Whether that chimes with what SF would do I have no idea.


  • #1443
    Dog of Tears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Dog of Tears


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    For me it would be very simple.
    From the top down carry out a complete root and branch survey of productivity among all management. A fundamental questioning of what is it you re doing and show me(the Minister) what it is you have done.
    By doing that you would get an overview of effectiveness and waste at management level. Which is where I perceive the main problems are.
    You do that all the way down and then you take stock and decide how to implement change, same as you would in any business...start at the roof and work down.
    Whether that chimes with what SF would do I have no idea.

    So pretty much what's been trotted out at every election by every Party for the last 30 years.

    But you (or SF) would be able to break the Union intransigence and actually get it to work?


  • #1444
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1445
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Dog of Tears wrote: »
    So pretty much what's been trotted out at every election by every Party for the last 30 years.

    But you (or SF) would be able to break the Union intransigence and actually get it to work?

    But none of them have actually done it, I will live in hope that somebody will.
    And you don't need to 'break' anybody if it is done properly and fairly with no vested interest being allowed to dictate what their productivity levels should be or indeed their wages.


  • #1446
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    For me it would be very simple.
    From the top down carry out a complete root and branch survey of productivity among all management. A fundamental questioning of what is it you re doing and show me(the Minister) what it is you have done.
    By doing that you would get an overview of effectiveness and waste at management level. Which is where I perceive the main problems are.
    You do that all the way down and then you take stock and decide how to implement change, same as you would in any business...start at the roof and work down.
    Whether that chimes with what SF would do I have no idea.

    All done. There are any amount of management consultant, working group and committee reports available.

    As I said - it's like the Untouchables - "Mr. Ness, everybody knows where the booze is. The problem isn't finding it, the problem is who wants to cross Capone."


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  • #1447
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    But none of them have actually done it, I will live in hope that somebody will.
    And you don't need to 'break' anybody if it is done properly and fairly with no vested interest being allowed to dictate what their productivity levels should be or indeed their wages.

    Can you point to one example where any Irish government managed to close a local hospital and the local electorate agreed? There's people get elected to the Dail on the single issue of local hospital closures.


  • #1448
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    with no vested interest being allowed to dictate what their productivity levels should be or indeed their wages.

    No unions then.

    If only someone had thought of that before!


  • #1449
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    But none of them have actually done it, I will live in hope that somebody will.
    And you don't need to 'break' anybody if it is done properly and fairly with no vested interest being allowed to dictate what their productivity levels should be or indeed their wages.

    Are you proposing the HSE (or whatever successor organisations crops up) negotiates individual contracts with consultants on a person-by-person basis?


  • #1450
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1451
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Jawgap wrote: »
    All done. There are any amount of management consultant, working group and committee reports available.

    You missed the bit where I said...'implement'
    I am well aware of the huge sums of money wasted on these continual reviews and reports right across the PS, I have a number of them sitting on my shelf here in the office.


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  • #1452
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Are you proposing the HSE (or whatever successor organisations crops up) negotiates individual contracts with consultants on a person-by-person basis?

    I am proposing what I proposed, a complete root and branch, top down review, an assessment of the information and 'implementation' of findings.


  • #1453
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1454
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    I seriously doubt Sinn Fein would propose ignoring or "breaking" unions since they're actively courting them at the moment. Or if they were, they wouldn't be publicising it before the next election.


  • #1455
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    It's also very expensive to do a "root and branch" restructuring. Given that SF is out at every opportunity to criticise every cent spent by Irish Water, I don't imagine they would get away with an expensive restructuring of the HSÉ without spending a bomb.

    Then the problem would be after spending a boatload of money doing the "review", they would bow to union pressure and make little to no changes.


  • #1456
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Well even if that was what I said, it would be a bit more realistic than shoring up a broken system, with more money we need to take from elsewhere, and pushing the PS wage purse up to oil rich state levels, when they are patently leaving already for other reasons.


  • #1457
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You missed the bit where I said...'implement'
    I am well aware of the huge sums of money wasted on these continual reviews and reports right across the PS, I have a number of them sitting on my shelf here in the office.

    Nice bit of selective posting there.

    The first part of my post
    Jawgap wrote: »
    All done. There are any amount of management consultant, working group and committee reports available.

    referred to the first part of yours.....
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    For me it would be very simple.
    From the top down carry out a complete root and branch survey of productivity among all management. A fundamental questioning of what is it you re doing and show me(the Minister) what it is you have done.
    By doing that you would get an overview of effectiveness and waste at management level. Which is where I perceive the main problems are.
    ..........

    the second part of my post
    Jawgap wrote: »
    .......

    As I said - it's like the Untouchables - "Mr. Ness, everybody knows where the booze is. The problem isn't finding it, the problem is who wants to cross Capone."

    referred to implementation......(the second part of yours)
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    ........
    You do that all the way down and then you take stock and decide how to implement change, same as you would in any business...start at the roof and work down.
    Whether that chimes with what SF would do I have no idea.


  • #1458
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I am proposing what I proposed, a complete root and branch, top down review, an assessment of the information and 'implementation' of findings.

    ......no offence, but I worked for a long time in the PS and that's a typical PS response - kick the can down the road by having reviews, working goups, steering committees, implementation taskforces, expert groups etc....


  • #1459
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1460
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1461
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Not much I can do here, consensus seems to be, leave it alone because it can't be fixed and keep paying PS's what they say they need to stay here. Future is bright.
    I'll leave youse to work some more on it. :rolleyes:


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  • #1462
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Not much I can do here, consensus seems to be, leave it alone because it can't be fixed and keep paying PS's what they say they need to stay here. Future is bright.
    I'll leave youse to work some more on it. :rolleyes:
    The thread isn't about coming up with a way of fixing the health system. The thread is about how SF's plan is not only not going to work, but is highly likely to compound and increase the problems.


  • #1463
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    I asked you a few minutes ago what would happen if the system lost even more doctors, and what effect that would have on the working conditions of the remaining doctors.

    How many doctors do you think the system could afford to lose under Sinn Fein's proposals* before it would be in effective collapse?

    *those who leave due to pay cuts, the lower standard of doctor that can be hired, and the consequent effects on the working conditions of those remaining, who may then in turn leave

    I think your reasoning at it's core is flawed.

    Jumping on a wandwaggon and pontificating about unknowns will not solve the problem.
    The current systems is unsustainable, I could suggest do nothing and watch the whole thing implode also.

    We need to be realistic.

    If you look at the average salary of a GP in Ireland some polls had them at 80K -100K some as high as 116K.

    This however this is in line with a lot of other european countries and the UK will pay GP's.

    The issue with Ireland is we are corrupt as f##k!
    Specialists in Ireland are amoung the highest paid on the plannet why?
    The idea of a mass exodus of good doctors is propaganda scaremongering.

    We have a below average health care system in this country but the ladder of power it seems it rotten through the core of everything we do here.

    So called "Specilists" are paid too much they need to be rained in, if they leave they leave, we could lower this to bring it inline with at least the european average of the top paid positions.

    When looking at numbers a political party will promise A but will deliver somewhere in the middle B, C or D, I would not let the numbers get in the way of a good idea!


  • #1464
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    The thread isn't about coming up with a way of fixing the health system. The thread is about how SF's plan is not only not going to work, but is highly likely to compound and increase the problems.

    I disagree, I think the idea is workable, the numbers might need to be adjusted.


  • #1465
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    ShowMeTheCash wrote: »
    I think your reasoning at it's core is flawed.

    Jumping on a wandwaggon and pontificating about unknowns will not solve the problem.
    The current systems is unsustainable, I could suggest do nothing and watch the whole thing implode also.

    We need to be realistic.

    If you look at the average salary of a GP in Ireland some polls had them at 80K -100K some as high as 116K.

    This however this is in line with a lot of other european countries and the UK will pay GP's.

    The issue with Ireland is we are corrupt as f##k!
    Specialists in Ireland are amoung the highest paid on the plannet why?
    The idea of a mass exodus of good doctors is propaganda scaremongering.

    We have a below average health care system in this country but the ladder of power it seems it rotten through the core of everything we do here.

    So called "Specilists" are paid too much they need to be rained in, if they leave they leave, we could lower this to bring it inline with at least the european average of the top paid positions.

    When looking at numbers a political party will promise A but will deliver somewhere in the middle B, C or D, I would not let the numbers get in the way of a good idea!

    Why can't they draw doctors into General Practice then?

    The ESRI have forecast will be 1800 GPs below where we should be by 2021. Also general practice gets squeezed - from an earlier article I posted up....
    International research has suggested that those medical students who graduate with debt are less inclined to consider general practice as a career.15 It is worth noting though that others have suggested that it is students from high-income families who are most likely to pursue surgery and surgery specialties as opposed to family practice.

    Nearly half of recently qualified GPs in one study said they were 'definitely' or 'possibly' emigrating - a further 24% were undecided and only 28% had ruled it out (ICGP - "Planning for the Future Irish General Practitioner Workforce -informed by a national survey of GP trainees and recent GP graduates)


  • #1466
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    ShowMeTheCash wrote: »
    I disagree, I think the idea is workable, the numbers might need to be adjusted.

    Which numbers?


  • #1467
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Which numbers?
    ...and which idea?


  • #1468
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Which numbers?

    First line of this post

    Sinn Fein promises to cap public sector salaries at €100,000.


  • #1469
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    ...and which idea?

    To cap salaries.


  • #1470
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    ShowMeTheCash wrote: »
    First line of this post

    Sinn Fein promises to cap public sector salaries at €100,000.
    Apparently that idea has been abandoned for some reason.


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  • #1471
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    ShowMeTheCash wrote: »
    First line of this post

    Sinn Fein promises to cap public sector salaries at €100,000.

    The Shinners have already abandoned that.

    The proposal is now pay cut of 15% on income above €100k but less than €150k and 30% cut of any income in excess of €150k.


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