Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

Godge wrote: »

If you think about it logically, if pay is a consideration now for two-thirds of potential doctors, cutting pay will only increase that percentage. You would need pay as a consideration to be as low as say 20% in order for cutting pay to have little or no effect.

You could probably 'get away' if graduate debt levels were lower.

This paper - "The national and international implications of a decade of doctor migration in the Irish context" (Health Policy, Volume 110, Issue 1, April 2013, Pages 29–38) identified salary as an issue, and presumably if you are not getting a grant to pay for your training you've to fork out for it yourself.....

However, in 2008 the economic downturn heavily affected the functioning of the health care system and spending restrictions resulted in salary reductions, loss of training grants [27] and non-payment of overtime.

Permabear wrote: »

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And paying them based on what they might get in Qatar would be what exactly? Pretending we are an oil rich state? :rolleyes:

Doctors have given us the main reasons why they are leaving, it stands to reason that if you want to stop them leaving then you need to fix those.
You don't have to be an oil rich state to run an efficient service that offers those working in it decent working conditions and a proper work life balance.

Doctors are not migrating from here primarily for money. The survey and other evidence clearly says that.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Doctors have given us the main reasons why they are leaving, it stands to reason that if you want to stop them leaving then you need to fix those.

Other than trite platitudes and slashing Consultant's salaries, what are the grand plans of SF to address these issues out of interest?

RecordStraight wrote: »

Regardless, the notion that cutting doctors' pay will have no impact on hiring and recruiting doctors is ludicrous.

Could you PLEASE show us where it was said by me, or anybody else for that matter, that cutting pay would have NO impact.
Be mindful of the fact that it was you who said the the impact would be 'mass exodus' and 'system collapse'.
It is clear, that not fixing the problems in the service is what is having the 'impact' at the moment. 'Pay' is not helping in stemming the flow is it?

The factors most influencing their decision to leave were career opportunities (85%), working conditions (83%), and lifestyle (80%).

......followed by salary at 65%.

The journal article makes it clear (to me anyway) that lifestyle is a function of many things, not the least of which is salary.....

This suggests that although financial remuneration is a factor, it must also be accompanied by a change to the lifestyle of a junior doctor as depicted by McGowan et al. [19], where they feel underappreciated and undervalued.

I'd also suggest things like overtime (and actually getting paid for it), working patterns etc dictate pay received and the acceptability or attractiveness of working conditions.

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Happyman42 wrote: »

The current status is; We can't recruit enough of them at the current pay scales and tax rates the current government is paying.

Just to be clear here; is the proposal from you guys that we increase their pay to whatever it takes to keep them here?

that or some other policy formulation to encourage them to stay - for example, free tuition for a medical student if they agree to spend 5 years post qualification working in the Irish health system or have the government provide zero interest loans to medical students, repayable only after they hit a certain salary point in their career, part or all of which may be ultimately forgiven if they go into certain areas of practice where there are chronic shortages.....

......GPs would be an example. GPs are 'greying' and graduates are not attracted to that line of work because of it's perceived poor pay and working patterns - no debt makes it more attractive, more GPs positively impact working patterns.

Much more beneficial than hacking at salaries and has the added bonus of helping clever kids from lower socio-economic groups get into medicine.

Jawgap wrote: »

that or some other policy formulation to encourage them to stay - for example, free tuition for a medical student if they agree to spend 5 years post qualification working in the Irish health system or have the government provide zero interest loans to medical students, repayable only after they hit a certain salary point in their career, part or all of which may be ultimately forgiven if they go into certain areas of practice where there are chronic shortages.....

......GPs would be an example. GPs are 'greying' and graduates are not attracted to that line of work because of it's perceived poor pay and working patterns - no debt makes it more attractive, more GPs positively impact working patterns.

Much more beneficial than hacking at salaries and has the added bonus of helping clever kids from lower socio-economic groups get into medicine.

I don't know what SF's health policy is exactly but I have heard plenty of SF TD's and indeed Independent TD's pinpoint what exactly is wrong in the Health service and speak quite strongly and frankly about the incompetence of the current HSE.
My own opinion would be that the Health Service needs fixed first, then look at salaries because it is also my opinion that they are too high for a PS in a country this size and we cannot afford it.

Happyman42 wrote: »

I don't know what SF's health policy is exactly but I have heard plenty of SF TD's and indeed Independent TD's pinpoint what exactly is wrong in the Health service and speak quite strongly and frankly about the incompetence of the current HSE.
My own opinion would be that the Health Service needs fixed first, then look at salaries because it is also my opinion that they are too high for a PS in a country this size and we cannot afford it.

Well they've published a couple of docs on it.

And everyone knows what's wrong with the HSE - and the TDs have not pinpointed it because they know there is no way in hell they can get through the measures needed to fix the service.

The HSE has itty-bitty units scattered all over the place - that kind of operation has no scale and is costly in the extreme. No TD gets re-elected by proposing to close any of these, they do get re-elected by suggesting more money is thrown into the system.

But someone has to be blamed, and if not the politicians withing whose power it is to address the issues, why not the fat-cat 'Sir Lancelot Spratt' consultants?

Happyman42 wrote: »

I have read that, it isn't current. As I say I am not an expert on SF health policy, I cam on this thread to reject the notion in the OP that a cut in wage would lead to a 'mass exodus' and a 'system collapse'.

Well the system won't collapse - we'll keep sucking in foreign doctors to keep it going.

The proportion of foreign-trained doctors rose from 13.4% of all registered doctors in 2000 to 33.4% by 2010. The largest increase was in foreign-trained doctors from outside the EU, rising from 972 (7.4%) in 2000 to 4740 (25.3%) of registered doctors in 2010. The biggest source country in 2000 was Pakistan. By 2010, South Africa had become the biggest source country. The number of foreign-trained doctors from other EU countries doubled from 780 in 2000 to 1521 in 2010.