Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
If we do not hit our goal we will be forced to close the site.

Current status: https://keepboardsalive.com/

Annual subs are best for most impact. If you are still undecided on going Ad Free - you can also donate using the Paypal Donate option. All contribution helps. Thank you.

Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

1…4344464849…51

Comments

  • #1352
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    source as well please?
    Here.

    It seems that your hospital experience is not typical at all. The figures show that we are becoming increasingly reliant on importing doctors (who are presumably not coming here for the caint agus ceol).


  • #1353
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Grand, so SF have changed their 4 year old policy, formulated when the country was flat broke and changed a few things to reflect the current economic climate.

    Should political parties set their position in stone in your opinion?

    As an aside, are property taxes still 'immoral and unjust' in FG land?


    Excellent, an end to the criticism from SF supporters of policy u-turns.

    I take it is now ok that Labour support Irish Water given it is not 2011 any more?

    Or is the futility of consistency only applicable to SF?


  • #1354
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Presumably the 30% cut applies on earnings over 150k only, but this is not clear.


    Correct.


  • #1355
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Perhaps you should quote the bit relevant to this thread, the bit about consultant pay.
    That's with regard to management level in the public sector, it doesn't mention consultants.
    I'm sure you can furnish us definitive information on Sinn Fein's plans for doctors' and consultants' pay.
    LeeMajors wrote: »
    It doesn't even show a cap of €100k pa on PS pay as is the premise for your whole thread.
    Indeed. That went up in a puff of smoke, the 100k limit, didn't it?


  • #1356
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Indeed. That went up in a puff of smoke, the 100k limit, didn't it?
    Much like the entire idea behind your latest SF attack thread, yeah.


  • Advertisement
  • #1357
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    They are. Last time I was in hospital, 2 of the 4 doctors I dealt with were Pakistani.

    One third of our doctors are trained abroad.

    Sinn Fein have never been in government here.
    How has this alleged fact anything to do with SF?


  • #1358
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Sinn Fein have never been in government here.
    How has this alleged fact anything to do with SF?
    It's their historical policy proposal from 2011. Word must have got out.


  • #1359
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1360
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Here.

    It seems that your hospital experience is not typical at all. The figures show that we are becoming increasingly reliant on importing doctors (who are presumably not coming here for the caint agus ceol).

    If that 'thing' is indicative of competency then we are doomed. It crashed my browser twice. What a mess of a document.


  • #1361
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Well you said it was immoral for us to take Sudanese doctors.
    Is it immoral for the US to take our doctors? Who exactly is immoral anyway? The poaching country or the doctor who is already very well paid where he is?

    I didn't. I specifically mentioned India and Pakistan. The figure for the Sudan is worse again at 0.3.

    As it happens the figure for the US is very slightly lower than it is for Ireland so no, I don't think you can compare Ireland siphoning from the Indian subcontinent where provision is extremely low with the US siphoning from Ireland where provision is broadly similar.


  • Advertisement
  • #1362
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Godge wrote: »
    Excellent, an end to the criticism from SF supporters of policy u-turns.

    I take it is now ok that Labour support Irish Water given it is not 2011 any more?

    Or is the futility of consistency only applicable to SF?

    SF proposed some cuts in 2011.
    Since then cuts have been implemented by FG and Labour.

    Why would SF now call for even more severe cuts when the cuts have been made?:confused:



    Labour canvassed for votes on the promise of no water charges.

    Article from The Irish Times, dated 19/02/2011

    "Labour TD Brendan Howlin backed comments by Mr Gilmore yesterday that the party would not support the installation of water meters in the next government.

    "We are not in favour of water charges, we don't believe in a flat rate and you couldn't meter everybody within years," he said.


    The Labour Party manifesto says the party "does not favour water charges".

    Mr Howlin re-affirmed this yesterday. He was the Labour Environment Minister in 1996 who originally abolished water charges. He said Labour's priority would be to spend the hundreds of millions of euro needed to pay for water metering on upgrading pipes to save the 50-60pc of water which leaks out of the system.


  • #1363
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    On the subject of foreign doctors ....

    Foreign medics fill hospital jobs as Irish doctors leave
    One in three doctors treating patients here is now from abroad, while home-grown medics - educated at a cost of €100,000 each - are emigrating.

    The foreign doctors mainly come from Pakistan, South Africa, the UK, Sudan and India - highlighting the ongoing reliance on non-Irish doctors to keep health services from grinding to a halt.

    Many are working as junior doctors in hospitals across the country and are vital to the running of services such as emergency departments, although they are not in traditional training posts.

    The revelation comes amid warnings about the risk of depending on doctors who are likely to return to their home country, as well as the morality of recruiting them from areas of the world which are short of medics.


  • #1364
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    I'm sure you can furnish us definitive information on Sinn Fein's plans for doctors' and consultants' pay.

    Indeed. That went up in a puff of smoke, the 100k limit, didn't it?

    As I said to you a hundred times now, you're making claims about SF in regard to consultant pay.
    You set this thread up claiming they wanted it capped at €100k pa.
    It's up to you, as the one making these claims, to show us where that is stated and then we can discuss it.
    That is the only way this board can function properly.
    I'm not privy to internal SF workings nor do I make their policy.
    You, on the other hand, seem to know what SF have in store for consultants so perhaps you can share that with us if you don't mind.


  • #1365
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Jawgap wrote: »
    On the subject of foreign doctors ....

    Foreign medics fill hospital jobs as Irish doctors leave

    Grand, have you any problem with foreign doctors working here?


  • #1366
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    As I said to you a hundred times now, you're making claims about SF in regard to consultant pay.
    You set this thread up claiming they wanted it capped at €100k pa.
    It's up to you, as the one making these claims, to show us where that is stated and then we can discuss it.
    That is the only way this board can function properly.
    I'm not privy to internal SF workings nor do I make their policy.
    You, on the other hand, seem to know what SF have in store for consultants so perhaps you can share that with us if you don't mind.

    I think the 2011 election manifesto is pretty clear - they wanted a €100k cap then.

    They have abandoned that policy since then, but fact is that it was a policy objective.


  • #1367
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Grand, have you any problem with foreign doctors working here?

    Morally? ethically? Legally?

    I think we have excellent medical teaching facilities here, we have the money to pay our own graduates but the HSE needs a serious overhaul.

    There's no intrinsic reason why we need to source medics from abroad but if they want to come here for training' experience etc and are going to take that knowledge back, then why not?


  • #1368
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    SF proposed some cuts in 2011.
    Since then cuts have been implemented by FG and Labour.

    Why would SF now call for even more severe cuts when the cuts have been made?:confused:



    Labour canvassed for votes on the promise of no water charges.

    Article from The Irish Times, dated 19/02/2011

    "Labour TD Brendan Howlin backed comments by Mr Gilmore yesterday that the party would not support the installation of water meters in the next government.

    "We are not in favour of water charges, we don't believe in a flat rate and you couldn't meter everybody within years," he said.


    The Labour Party manifesto says the party "does not favour water charges".

    Mr Howlin re-affirmed this yesterday. He was the Labour Environment Minister in 1996 who originally abolished water charges. He said Labour's priority would be to spend the hundreds of millions of euro needed to pay for water metering on upgrading pipes to save the 50-60pc of water which leaks out of the system.

    FG put different cuts in place so does that mean that if SF are dropping their alternatives, they are agreeing that the FG cuts were correct and don't need to be reversed?


  • #1369
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    So we have established that successive governments and the HSE has managed to make a mess. anything else?


  • #1370
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Godge wrote: »
    FG put different cuts in place so does that mean that if SF are dropping their alternatives, they are agreeing that the FG cuts were correct and don't need to be reversed?

    Their 2015 budget proposal suggests they are quite happy in a number if areas to leave certain measures in place and harvest the revenue!


  • #1371
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Advertisement
  • #1372
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Have you found a way to blame SF for this yet?


  • #1373
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    What's this?
    An article showing how legislation brought in in 2007 is forcing doctors to leave Ireland to further their careers? (the lack of a defined career path I mentioned several times)
    Not a mention of money either.

    So, an act, brought in by FFail and kept by FG is forcing doctors from these shores.


    And look here,


    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDIQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth%2Fnine-in-10-medical-students-may-leave-ireland-on-qualifying-1.2135857&ei=IhIKVeK5OsiP7AaFpIHQBQ&usg=AFQjCNHrnFtqilIDsrBCLtOeY21p-ZwAoQ


    An Irish Times article from last week detailing the top three reasons why graduates are determined to leave......



    First reason,
    Career opportunities, i.e defined career path.

    Second reason,
    Working conditions, quite obvious really, long hours, bad facilities etc

    Third reason,
    Lifestyle, speaks for itself.



    No mention of money.

    Point proved, thread debunked.



    Goodnight.


  • #1374
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    What's this?
    An article showing how legislation brought in in 2007 is forcing doctors to leave Ireland to further their careers? (the lack of a defined career path I mentioned several times)
    Not a mention of money either.

    So, an act, brought in by FFail and kept by FG is forcing doctors from these shores.


    And look here,


    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDIQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth%2Fnine-in-10-medical-students-may-leave-ireland-on-qualifying-1.2135857&ei=IhIKVeK5OsiP7AaFpIHQBQ&usg=AFQjCNHrnFtqilIDsrBCLtOeY21p-ZwAoQ


    An Irish Times article from last week detailing the top three reasons why graduates are determined to leave......



    First reason,
    Career opportunities, i.e defined career path.

    Second reason,
    Working conditions, quite obvious really, long hours, bad facilities etc

    Third reason,
    Lifestyle, speaks for itself.



    No mention of money.

    Point proved, thread debunked.



    Goodnight.

    This is why you shouldn't use newspaper articles.....

    Almost 90% of medical students consider emigration
    Cuts to consultant salaries and perceptions about working conditions in Irish hospitals are informing the thinking of the next generation of doctors.

    And from the ACTUAL report......
    Those who were definitely or contemplating going abroad were asked for the reasons influencing their decision (Figure 2). The main reasons given were career opportunities (85%), working conditions in Ireland (83% n = 1 102), lifestyle (80% n = 1 066), pay (65% n = 871), and the standard of training (60% n = 803). There were no significant differences in reasons given by sex (p > 0.05).

    The proportion citing salary (χ2 = 10.122, df = 2, p = 0.006), working conditions in Ireland (χ2 = 38.659, df = 2, p = 0.000), the standard of training (χ2 = 11.466, df = 2, p = 0.003), and debt (χ2 = 196.934, df = 2, p = 0.000) as reasons was significantly greater in the older age groups (over 23 compared to 21–23 and 18–20). Conversely, a significantly lower proportion of the older age groups reported independence as a reason (χ2 = 32.768, df = 2, p = 0.000).

    The 48 respondents definitely not going abroad primarily cited family (81%, n = 39) as an issue influencing their decision not to migrate.


  • #1375
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    What's this?
    An article showing how legislation brought in in 2007 is forcing doctors to leave Ireland to further their careers? (the lack of a defined career path I mentioned several times)
    Not a mention of money either.

    So, an act, brought in by FFail and kept by FG is forcing doctors from these shores.


    And look here,


    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDIQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth%2Fnine-in-10-medical-students-may-leave-ireland-on-qualifying-1.2135857&ei=IhIKVeK5OsiP7AaFpIHQBQ&usg=AFQjCNHrnFtqilIDsrBCLtOeY21p-ZwAoQ


    An Irish Times article from last week detailing the top three reasons why graduates are determined to leave......



    First reason,
    Career opportunities, i.e defined career path.

    Second reason,
    Working conditions, quite obvious really, long hours, bad facilities etc

    Third reason,
    Lifestyle, speaks for itself.



    No mention of money.

    Point proved, thread debunked.



    Goodnight.

    The actual study also notes......
    Salary was reported as a key factor influencing intentions to migrate (65%). This is supported by studies that show that debt and perceived income also influence the career paths of both medical students and qualified physicians [35,36].

    Medical students have a high-debt burden in the undergraduate phase and also incur further substantial debt during training [37]. It is therefore inevitable that salary is an increasingly important migration factor

    their conclusion
    The Irish healthcare system finds itself in a position with a shortage of qualified doctors and a significant proportion of medical students indicating an intention to leave.

    The potential future emigration of 88% of Irish national medical students poses an immediate and severe threat to the sustainability of the Irish healthcare service. Urgent interventions are needed at an undergraduate level including providing a better understanding of career structures and the organisation of the health service.

    Interventions at the postgraduate level may include streamlining specialty training pathways, addressing pay and working conditions in training programmes, and clearer workforce planning for more senior posts, in order to retain medical graduates and entice those that have already emigrated to return.

    ....as I said sometime earlier - journos write articles to sell newspapers that's why the IT can look at something like this and pull out the bits that suit their editorial position and RTE can look at the same work and pull out different bits.

    In fact, I doubt any journo went past the press release which is written, not to reflect the work, but to garner attention - because attention translates, ultimately, to funding.


  • #1376
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Just wondering if people really think that a person who starts their career with a high level of debt isn't influenced by salary considerations.......

    From Haugh C, Doyle B, O’Flynn S. Debt crisis ahead for Irish medical students. Ir Med J. 2014;107:185–6.......
    The survey found that the average level of personal debt among the graduate entry cohort was €79,554 with 36(61%) of students on this programme availing of a specialised term loan.

    Prior to 2013 a typical loan package offered GEM students approval for a €100,000 personal loan to cover the full cost of tuition and living expenses during the four years of the programme.

    Currently, the typical loan package offers students up to €60,000 to cover tuition fees only.

    With a monthly salary after tax of €2,072 for newly qualified interns, many graduates are struggling to meet repayments in the order of €1,300 per month to service a €100,000 Graduate Medicine Loan. Graduates are voting with their feet with many opting to leave Ireland in search of better working conditions abroad.

    A number of factors are at play but past research has established that debt is an important predictor of medical workforce migration.

    Is the salary you're paid not a condition of, and relating, your work?


  • #1377
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Jawgap wrote: »
    This is why you shouldn't use newspaper articles.....

    Almost 90% of medical students consider emigration



    And from the ACTUAL report......
    You'll be blaming SF for current TRAINEE doctor salary now I suppose?


  • #1378
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Is the salary you're paid not a condition of, and relating, your work?
    "related"? Tenuous.
    I wonder why they call it "pay and conditions" when you are now claiming these are synonyms?


  • #1379
    Dog of Tears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Dog of Tears


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You'll be blaming SF for current TRAINEE doctor salary now I suppose?

    No.

    SF are being blamed for coming up with populist, poorly thought-out policy statements that will inevitably worsen what is already a underfunded health service.

    I would have thought that much was obvious.


  • #1380
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You'll be blaming SF for current TRAINEE doctor salary now I suppose?

    Eh, no.

    I'm just pointing to the original source study. I believe the person who brought the newspaper article to this part of the thread said their was no mention of money.

    That is correct. There is no mention of money in the Irish Times article (whereas there is in the RTE article).

    However, the actual study is quite clear that salary is ".....a key factor influencing intentions to migrate" (their words, not mine).

    To quote Jimmy Malone "If you're afraid of getting a rotten apple, don't go to the barrel. Get it off the tree." ;)


  • Advertisement
  • #1381
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    You are now also claiming doctors need higher salaries to pay off heir debt. Free third level education for all solves this.


Advertisement