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Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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Comments

  • #1322
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Ok, just to get the ball rolling in the new venue, this is where we seem to stand:

    1. The 100k public sector cap apparently does not apply to everyone in the public sector. It is not clear if this cap even still exists.

    2. Sinn Fein have also stated that they have no intention of cutting consultants' pay.

    3. At the same time, Sinn Fein plan to cut salaries over 150k by 30% and salaries over 100k by 15%, plus introduce new taxes in incomes over 100k, which will most definitely affect doctors and consultants, bringing their pay down substantially (and of course by more the higher up the chain you go).

    Point 1. Never did apply to everyone in the PS.

    Point 2. Can you show us a source for this?

    Point 3. Could probably do with your source for this too, as your figures are different from SF's budget 2015 proposals.


  • #1323
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I predicted this "English speaking countries" line would be aired to justify rock star salaries.
    Do you think doctors in countries across the globe (English is a national language in India for example) can't also speak English? It's just a convenient way to affiliate Irish doctors with the highest pay levels automatically.
    It's just indicative of the fact that we are competing in a global market for these doctors.

    Why are Irish hospitals not staffed with thousands of Australian, American, New Zealand, Canadian and British doctors if our salaries are so appealing to them?

    Conversely, why do so many Irish-qualified doctors leave for foreign shores that fully ONE THIRD of our doctors are trained abroad?


  • #1324
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1325
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Point 2. Can you show us a source for this?

    Point 3. Could probably do with your source for this too, as your figures are different from SF's budget 2015 proposals.
    These are up thread, Lee. Have a look if you are interested.

    Or perhaps just scan the Sinn Fein health policy documents? I'm sure the information must be in there...somewhere...


  • #1326
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    ...Sinn Fein plan to cut salaries over 150k by 30% and salaries over 100k by 15%...

    So someone who was on 155k will be reduced to 108.5k; someone on 145k will be reduced to 123.25k; someone on 105k will be reduced to 89.25k; but someone on 95k will remain on 95k?

    Makes sense.


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  • #1327
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Jawgap wrote: »
    No, if they can't fund it efficiently - or can't show how it would be funded - it is most definitely a 'looming' disaster.

    Look, it's you guys making all the claims so it's up to you guys to show us where SF are wrong, in your opinions.
    That's how a board like this works, whoever makes the claims should be able to back them up when asked.
    I'm really not sure what's so hard to understand regarding this.


  • #1328
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    The cod concern is touching.
    It's a free market. Of course we should take them. How many Sudanese doctors are there anyway?


  • #1329
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I predicted this "English speaking countries" line would be aired to justify rock star salaries.
    Do you think doctors in countries across the globe (English is a national language in India for example) can't also speak English? It's just a convenient way to affiliate Irish doctors with the highest pay levels automatically.

    Dan, do you approve of siphoning doctors from India and Pakistan where provision per capita is about a quarter of what it is in Ireland?

    Because I have no objection to hiring doctors from Italy where doctors per 1000 people is 4.1 but in India it is 0.7 and in Pakistan I think it's 0.8 and I feel that hiring Indian subcontinent doctors just because they are cheaper is amoral. You can argue that getting cheaper doctors from abroad is okay but you would be denying poorer countries access to med staff that might have stayed at home.


  • #1330
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    So someone who was on 155k will be reduced to 108.5k; someone on 145k will be reduced to 123.25k; someone on 105k will be reduced to 89.25k; but someone on 95k will remain on 95k?

    Makes sense.

    That's not in the 2014 or 2015 budget proposals put forward by Sinn Fein.

    You can read it yourself here...

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinnfein.ie%2Ffiles%2F2014%2FPre-Budget_October2014.pdf&ei=ogMKVYLHBuXm7gaO44DIAw&usg=AFQjCNGuYk2MVFF3ultysjKaYxOJEU43zw&bvm=bv.88528373,d.ZGU


  • #1331
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    So someone who was on 155k will be reduced to 108.5k; someone on 145k will be reduced to 123.25k; someone on 105k will be reduced to 89.25k; but someone on 95k will remain on 95k?

    Makes sense.
    Presumably the 30% cut applies on earnings over 150k only, but this is not clear.


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  • #1332
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    It's just indicative of the fact that we are competing in a global market for these doctors.

    Why are Irish hospitals not staffed with thousands of Australian, American, New Zealand, Canadian and British doctors if our salaries are so appealing to them?

    Conversely, why do so many Irish-qualified doctors leave for foreign shores that fully ONE THIRD of our doctors are trained abroad?
    Well why aren't our hospitals full of doctors from lower paid countries already then?
    That doesn't fit the "all about the money" narrative though so we'd best ignore it, yes?


  • #1333
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Calina wrote: »
    Dan, do you approve of siphoning doctors from India and Pakistan where provision per capita is about a quarter of what it is in Ireland?

    Because I have no objection to hiring doctors from Italy where doctors per 1000 people is 4.1 but in India it is 0.7 and in Pakistan I think it's 0.8 and I feel that hiring Indian subcontinent doctors just because they are cheaper is amoral. You can argue that getting cheaper doctors from abroad is okay but you would be denying poorer countries access to med staff that might have stayed at home.

    How many Indian or Pakistani doctors are working in the HSE and who hired them?


  • #1334
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    That's not in the 2014 or 2015 budget proposals put forward by Sinn Fein.

    You can read it yourself here...

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sinnfein.ie%2Ffiles%2F2014%2FPre-Budget_October2014.pdf&ei=ogMKVYLHBuXm7gaO44DIAw&usg=AFQjCNGuYk2MVFF3ultysjKaYxOJEU43zw&bvm=bv.88528373,d.ZGU
    Page 23:
    In Budget 2015 we would:
    Reduce by 15% public sector salary income
    between €100,000 and €150,000 and reduce
    by 30% public sector salary income in excess
    of €150,000.


  • #1335
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Calina wrote: »
    Dan, do you approve of siphoning doctors from India and Pakistan where provision per capita is about a quarter of what it is in Ireland?

    Because I have no objection to hiring doctors from Italy where doctors per 1000 people is 4.1 but in India it is 0.7 and in Pakistan I think it's 0.8 and I feel that hiring Indian subcontinent doctors just because they are cheaper is amoral. You can argue that getting cheaper doctors from abroad is okay but you would be denying poorer countries access to med staff that might have stayed at home.
    I don't see anyone calling Irish doctors traitors when they leave for the US and Canada for better (whatever it is) leaving us in the lurch.
    Should we do that?


  • #1336
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Well why aren't our hospitals full of doctors from lower paid countries already then?
    That doesn't fit the "all about the money" narrative though so we'd best ignore it, yes?
    They are. Last time I was in hospital, 2 of the 4 doctors I dealt with were Pakistani.

    One third of our doctors are trained abroad.


  • #1337
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1338
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    They are. Last time I was in hospital, 2 of the 4 doctors I dealt with were Pakistani.

    One third of our doctors are trained abroad.

    Been pretty much that way in two hospitals I frequent regularly for the last 30 years or so.


  • #1339
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I don't see anyone calling Irish doctors traitors when they leave for the US and Canada for better (whatever it is) leaving us in the lurch.
    Should we do that?

    Point out where I called anyone a traitor Dan.


  • #1340
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Can you find anywhere that SF say they are against free market economics?
    Great. We'll just recruit more foreigners who will work for the (now) almost rock star salaries. Problem solved.


  • #1341
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    It seems that there were 400 Sudanese doctors in Ireland in 2010. I wonder are there that many Sudanese doctors in Sudan?


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  • #1342
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Been pretty much that way in two hospitals I frequent regularly for the last 30 years or so.
    Well that's precisely it. Much like these "high value" guys we're supposed to be so afraid of losing: was nice knowing you, there's cottages in Conemara if you ever want to visit.


  • #1343
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    SF's alternative 2015 budget proposes the following
    Reductions in public sector pay and pensions, including 15% reduction in public sector salaries between €100,000 & €150,000 and 30% on income over €150,000.

    In one part of the document (pg 13) they say this will save €23m but in another they say it will save only €4.5m (pg23) :confused:

    They also seem to endorse the idea of a sugar tax.


  • #1344
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Calina wrote: »
    Point out where I called anyone a traitor Dan.
    Well you said it was immoral for us to take Sudanese doctors.
    Is it immoral for the US to take our doctors? Who exactly is immoral anyway? The poaching country or the doctor who is already very well paid where he is?


  • #1345
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Look, it's you guys making all the claims so it's up to you guys to show us where SF are wrong, in your opinions.
    That's how a board like this works, whoever makes the claims should be able to back them up when asked.
    I'm really not sure what's so hard to understand regarding this.

    I'm not saying they can't fund it - I'm asking where's the funding coming from?


  • #1346
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight



    2000     :13.4 %
    2005 :25.3
    2010: 33.4

    Above is the trend in the percentage of non-Irish qualified doctors registered in Ireland. Why are we having to import so many doctors? How will cutting pay help retain/attract them?


  • #1347
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    RecordStraight wrote: »

    2000     :13.4 %
    2005 :25.3
    2010: 33.4

    Above is the trend in the percentage of non-Irish qualified doctors registered in Ireland.
    Delighted. Keep them coming.


  • #1348
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »

    2000     :13.4 %
    2005 :25.3
    2010: 33.4

    Above is the trend in the percentage of non-Irish qualified doctors registered in Ireland.

    source as well please?


  • #1349
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1350
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Page 23:

    Perhaps you should quote the bit relevant to this thread, the bit about consultant pay.
    That's with regard to management level in the public sector, it doesn't mention consultants.
    It doesn't even show a cap of €100k pa on PS pay as is the premise for your whole thread.


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  • #1351
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    So?


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