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Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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Comments

  • #1292
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    joe912 wrote: »
    what's a shiner?

    No answer to my question?

    Thought so.

    Another acolyte enters the fray


  • #1293
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Why? How is that anybody's job?
    You could start a new thread "I don't have a clue about SF's policies but I'm attacking them anyway. Feel free to tell me their policies though. Ta."
    Dan, the reason you - or any other Sinn Fein member/supporter on Boards.ie - can't point to a definitive proposal is because there isn't one, or if there is, Sinn Fein are keeping it very quiet.

    It's pretty clear to even the most casual reader that you guys are all scrambling to avoid the question.


  • #1294
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Can you explain why the most basic laws of economics do not apply

    You mean the one that applied to that Australian Doc who came over here for less money?


  • #1295
    frankbrett
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭frankbrett


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Not for this thread which is about SF's health policy.

    But start a thread on the manifesto and I'd be happy to share my thoughts.

    Incidentally when SF say......



    What 'measures' are they talking about? Or is this the old trick of putting in a very specific number (instead of a rounded one) to make it look very precise and authoritative :D

    Cormac Lucey adressed this:


    "Meanwhile measures to improve health system productivity, including strategic purchasing would aim to save €205.9 million. There’s something delightfully artful in that figure. It’s not €200 million. It’s not even €205 million. Instead it’s got the mysterious air of precision that a figure like €205.9 million conjures up. The suggestion is that, if Sinn Féin’s projected saving has been so precisely calculated, it must be capable of delivery.

    Yet anyone who has paid the slightest attention to what has been going on in Health over recent years knows that this is nonsense. The Irish Times reported last month that a consultancy report commissioned by the health service had forecast that the Haddington Road deal may only produce €212 million in savings, plus or minus 20 per cent. That degree of uncertainty is much closer to reality than Sinn Féin’s apparent precision"


  • #1296
    joe912
    Closed Accounts Posts: 267 ✭✭joe912


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Can you explain why the most basic laws of economics do not apply to Irish doctors and foreign doctors who might work in Ireland?

    Please?

    I couldn't explain anything to you. the only person worse than somebody who knows everything is somebody that thinks they do.


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  • #1297
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You mean the one that applied to that Australian Doc who came over here for less money?
    And, oddly enough, left when his pay was cut, citing pay as an issue.


  • #1298
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    you guys

    Who is 'you guys'?


  • #1299
    joe912
    Closed Accounts Posts: 267 ✭✭joe912


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    No answer to my question?

    Thought so.

    Another acolyte enters the fray

    well when you throw in an insult, its never a good start.


  • #1300
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    joe912 wrote: »
    I couldn't explain anything to you. the only person worse than somebody who knows everything is somebody that thinks they do.
    Joe, if you can't answer a question, you can say that. You don't have to make an offensive reply.

    The fact remains that you can't explain why the basic laws of economics should not apply to Irish doctors.


  • #1301
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    And, oddly enough, left when his pay was cut, citing pay as an issue.

    quite clear that pay was not key, but part of the reason. Exactly as the survey I posted said.


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  • #1302
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Who is 'you guys'?
    The Sinn Fein supporters and members here who cannot point to Sinn Fein's definitive policy on consultants' and doctors' pay.

    Spin Fein - trying to convince us that no policy is the best policy.


  • #1303
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Nice try. Well, actually it isn't. It's a fairly useless attempt at a history rewrite.
    This thread is about A SF health policy. The clue is in the first post.
    A policy which it turns out doesn't exist.
    Want to make up something else?

    Well I did specifically address my comment in the context of the 2011 Health policy document, which formed part of their election manifesto.


  • #1304
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    quite clear that pay was not key, but part of the reason. Exactly as the survey I posted said.
    I'm delighted we can agree that cutting pay means fewer doctors will want to stay here or come here to work.


  • #1305
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Eh, it was published a couple of weeks after his departure in the Irish Times - it's not like it was the Third Secret of Fatima.

    So?
    Throw it up for us here then.
    You're the one referencing his reasons for over an hour now, throw it up there and we'll look at his reasons.
    And, before you ask, you're the one who brought him and his resignation letter into the thread, so let's be having it.
    Thanks in advance.


  • #1306
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    So?
    Throw it up for us here then.
    You're the one referencing his reasons for over an hour now, throw it up there and we'll look at his reasons.
    And, before you ask, you're the one who brought him and his resignation letter into the thread, so let's be having it.
    Thanks in advance.
    Lee, if you really want to discuss it, I suggest you post it.

    Thanks in advance.


  • #1307
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    I'm delighted we can agree that cutting pay means fewer doctors will want to stay here or come here to work.

    Are they not very well paid as it is??

    And many junior doctors leave to excessive hours(they nearly went on strick over this??)


  • #1308
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    And, oddly enough, left when his pay was cut, citing pay as an issue.

    Ah, it's an issue now......
    Not the issue though, was it?


  • #1309
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    The Sinn Fein supporters and members here who cannot point to Sinn Fein's definitive policy on consultants' and doctors' pay.

    Spin Fein - trying to convince us that no policy is the best policy.

    Who are the members of SF on here?


  • #1310
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Are they not very well paid as it is??
    Yes, Tom, they are.

    And as I've said elsewhere in the thread, I think they should be paid as little as we (the taxpayers) can get away with paying them. But if Sinn Fein cuts their pay, and they leave/don't move here, we will see the health service get a lot worse.


  • #1311
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    So?
    Throw it up for us here then.
    You're the one referencing his reasons for over an hour now, throw it up there and we'll look at his reasons.
    And, before you ask, you're the one who brought him and his resignation letter into the thread, so let's be having it.
    Thanks in advance.

    It's also since been 'Gonzalez'ed' - so I'll pass on putting it up.


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  • #1312
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Bear with me again for 10 minutes.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1313
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Mod: Thread moved to the main politics forum.

    Please be aware of the politics charter and the higher standard expected here.

    As a guide, nearly everything posted in the last few hours is well below standard.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1314
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    I think they should be paid as little as we (the taxpayers) can get away with paying them. But if Sinn Fein cuts their pay,.

    Is this not essentially splitting hairs in disagreeing on how much to pay them???


  • #1315
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    How sustainable are SF's plans for health provision? In the sense of funding.

    There seems to be a lot of commitments to improve certain areas, but where will the money come from?


  • #1316
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1317
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Ok, just to get the ball rolling in the new venue, this is where we seem to stand:

    1. The 100k public sector cap apparently does not apply to everyone in the public sector. It is not clear if this cap even still exists.

    2. Sinn Fein have also stated that they have no intention of cutting consultants' pay.

    3. At the same time, Sinn Fein plan to cut salaries over 150k by 30% and salaries over 100k by 15%, plus introduce new taxes in incomes over 100k, which will most definitely affect doctors and consultants, bringing their pay down substantially (and of course by more the higher up the chain you go).

    There are two big problems that I can see:

    1. If Sinn Fein, as seems to be the case, intends to cut the pay of doctors and consultants, then it will be harder to retain the doctors we have and recruit new ones from abroad. Already, a third of our doctors are trained in Pakistan other countries, outside Ireland.

    2. At the same time, it is not clear whether Sinn Fein intends the 100k+ and 150k+ tax cuts to apply to doctors, or consultants, or both, or neither. None of the posters who support Sinn Fein can clarify this issue.

    Basically, Sinn Fein's health proposals on this point appear to be a shambles.

    Additionally, Sinn Fein apparently intends to create an Irish 'NHS' - not a goal I have an issue with - and manage this massive increase in services and service efficiency with only a tiny, tiny increase in spending. This seems to be extremely unlikely to succeed without proper resourcing (i.e. greatly increased taxes).


  • #1318
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Jawgap wrote: »
    How sustainable are SF's plans for health provision? In the sense of funding.

    There seems to be a lot of commitments to improve certain areas, but where will the money come from?

    Ok, so now the question has changed completely.
    It's gone from an alleged plan by SF to cut consultant pay to €100k PA to "How sustainable are SF's plans for health provision?"

    Surely that's a completely different thread?

    But, before any one of us can answer that, can we have the DoF's figures for the current year so we can work out how sustainable they are.
    Could probably do with detailed breakdowns of current spending in the HSE too.

    I'll need the above just for a start.


  • #1319
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Is this not essentially splitting hairs in disagreeing on how much to pay them???
    Not at all. I think we should pay them as little as possible, but if we cut their pay at present, basic economics suggests that we will lose doctors and/or have to hire from further down the food chain abroad.

    If and when we can get away with cutting their salaries without damaging the health service, I'm all for it.


  • #1320
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    I predicted this "English speaking countries" line would be aired to justify rock star salaries.
    Do you think doctors in countries across the globe (English is a national language in India for example) can't also speak English? It's just a convenient way to affiliate Irish doctors with the highest pay levels automatically.


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  • #1321
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Ok, so now the question has changed completely.
    It's gone from an alleged plan by SF to cut consultant pay to €100k PA to "How sustainable are SF's plans for health provision?"

    Surely that's a completely different thread?

    But, before any one of us can answer that, can we have the DoF's figures for the current year so we can work out how sustainable they are.
    Could probably do with detailed breakdowns of current spending in the HSE too.

    I'll need the above just for a start.

    No, if they can't fund it efficiently - or can't show how it would be funded - it is most definitely a 'looming' disaster.


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