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Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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Comments

  • #1112
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    You think James Reilly, from a small GP surgery in Lusk, Co. Dublin and who was the head of the IMO, representing consultants and doctors in wage negotiations with the then FFail governments, was ever going to be capable of running and changing for the better, a massive health system like the HSE?

    He made it worse FFS, during his tenure the levels of management increased while the amount of doctors decreased.

    No he failed and failed miserably and now Leo thinks by 'not failing' as dramatically, he's 'succeeding' - given that what makes you think a former bank official from Monaghan with no experience of working in or with the country's health services, and no ministerial experience can do any better?


  • #1113
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Okay, I'm quite happy to concede that they don't mention a pay cap. However they do specifically mention a salary cut.



    Can we agree on this? Then can we go back to this point that I raised previously? Which still absolutely applies in the presence of a cut and not a cap.



    And the idea that this isn't a useful indicator of what might happen?

    We can certainly discuss it.
    It has to be pointed out that the OP is based on a lie and perhaps someone could modify it and the thread title to reflect this.

    Studies I've produced on this thread suggest that the reasons for the drop in numbers isn't due to cuts in salary.

    That has some effect ok, but in the main the reasons doctors are leaving is because of poor working conditions, poor work/life balance due to extreme (and illegal in the eyes of the EU) working hours, an undefined career path in that a majority of NCHD's are still just that 10 years after acquiring the relevant qualifications and being discouraged, indeed disgusted, by the way the HSE is ran etc etc.


  • #1114
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Obfuscation - the Shinner health doc from 2011 mentioned 2 potential salary caps - one at €100k and one at €150k - which was the figure that correctly reflected their intent?

    As usual with anti-SF posters, you're living in the past.
    This is 2015, not 2011.


  • #1115
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So in return for waiting "a year or two" they get paid twice the UK equivalent for the rest of their lives? Do you think medical students are incapable of doing this fiendishly difficult maths for themselves or are they just lying about the money again?

    Ok, you need to read what's being written.

    They have to wait a year or two for the training spot to open up - then they actually have to do the training, then wait for the next spot to open up, then do that training and so on......

    Combine that with the fact that some Irish medical degrees are a year longer than those elsewhere, and the fact that HST and GP training rotations are up to a year longer than other countries and it becomes apparent why the typical length of time it takes to reach a consultancy in Ireland is 12 to 15 years - from graduation! Which is five years longer than the UK.

    It also means that when clinical teams are competing for funding countries like the UK are at an advantage because, on paper at least, the clinical leaders have been in leadership posts for longer, despite being in the same age cohort.


  • #1116
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    According to Enda.;)

    Oh dear, do the maths.

    They forgot to say the budget submission replaced the manifesto pledge - then they tripped up trying to sort it out while everyone did the maths. Admittedly, it probably did or they intended for it to replace it - but it just reinforced (as if reinforcement were needed) that SF are a tax and spend party.

    So, does the budget submission trump the manifesto pledge - voters want to know?


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  • #1117
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    Listen, you edit and twist people's posts so that your responses can have a semblance of sense. It is pointless dealing with you.

    As for your latest response, "lying" is a pejorative word and "lying" takes many forms, including the three you mention above but there are degrees and some "lying" is not "lying" (I know this might be difficult to cogitate but I will give an example). Responding to an inconsequential survey with the answer you are expected to give and giving the answer you expect the survey is looking for and wanting to look good can be considered lying in your mind but it is not considered lying by anyone else.

    Seeing as we are on a SF thread, contrast that with you saying that Gerry Adams didn't lie about his neice's sexual abuse even though he told one story to the Spotlight programme and a different one under oath. Now, we all know he lied to the programme and there was probably an element of telling the questioner what he wanted to hear and hoping to look good but it wasn't a meaningless survey, it was a serious issue on a serious investigative programme. To conclude, excuse me if I think your standards of what a lie is are more than a little off.
    Which is just saying 'I will dictate what version of 'lying' I mean.
    Mistruth, Mislead, call it whatever rocks your boat to suit your argument. We know what you meant before you tried to dilute it. And we also seen what you tried to do by calling a survey backed by some of the policy makers and advisors to policy makers as ' inconsequential'.


  • #1118
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    No, I'm afraid I am referencing data. That Irish consultants get effectively twice what a UK consultant gets is nowhere presented as an "opinion" by anybody.
    Unless you are now proposing maths is an "opinion".

    It is amazing how quickly people forget posts they read yesterday. Here is one I posted in response to you Dan, pointing out how the OECD data is flawed and another one with greater detail.

    Maths isn't an opinion but research depends on assumptions. Too often in research there are flawed assumptions. The flaw in the OECD study is that it looked at base salaries only.

    Godge wrote: »
    There is no data.

    The OECD data is based on a number of false premises -

    (1) that the salary for UK doctors is purely the salary scale, I have produced links to show that is wrong

    (2) it leaves NCHDs out of the Irish data.

    I don't have the raw data to be able to calculate the correct comparison (if I did, I would) but I have enough expert analytical skills to see the OECD comparison is flawed.
    Godge wrote: »
    I have figured out how SF will be able to do it.

    In the UK the base salaries are well below the Irish scales. However, any consultant who turns up and does his job is eligible for a Clinical Excellence Award worth nearly as much as their salary.

    http://www.hospitaldr.co.uk/guidance/applying-for-clinical-excellence-awards

    Given the lower income tax rates in the UK, net income would be higher than in Ireland if you have a clinical excellence award.

    As I pointed out to someone else, in the absence of data on how many specialists hold clinical excellence awards, it is impossible to know how a UK consultant salary compares with an Irish one. In fact, if it is possible to use Irish experience in order to get a CEA in the UK, a move to the UK will probably be financially attractive to many Irish doctors.


  • #1119
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    As usual with anti-SF posters, you're living in the past.
    This is 2015, not 2011.

    Yes, you have a good point.

    In 2011, SF were proposing to cap all public sector salaries at €100k. They later moved to exempting consultants. Still later in 2015, they are now proposing a 15% cut on income between 100k and 150k and an undefined cut of 30% over 150k (not clear if this applies to the whole salary or just the bit over 150k).

    The empirical evidence of this change demonstrates that someone in the SF backoffice has figured out that cutting salaries to 100k just won't work and that people will leave.

    It is a pity the message hadn't got through to the front-ranks, as there were many of them blindly defending such a cut in the first few pages of this thread.


  • #1120
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Which is just saying 'I will dictate what version of 'lying' I mean.
    Mistruth, Mislead, call it whatever rocks your boat to suit your argument. We know what you meant before you tried to dilute it. And we also seen what you tried to do by calling a survey backed by some of the policy makers and advisors to policy makers as ' inconsequential'.

    Not at all, I am using critical judgement to distinguish between telling someone conducting a survey what they want to hear and lying about your niece's child sexual abuse.


  • #1121
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    Not at all, I am using critical judgement to distinguish between telling someone conducting a survey what they want to hear and lying about your niece's child sexual abuse.

    I'll just quote that post so that people can see for themselves just how clutching and desperate you are.


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  • #1122
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Godge wrote: »
    I don't have the raw data to be able to calculate the correct comparison
    As I said, I think I'll trust the OECD then ahead of boards randomer with no data.


  • #1123
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »

    It is a pity the message hadn't got through to the front-ranks, as there were many of them blindly defending such a cut in the first few pages of this thread.

    Which kinda demolishes your own theory that we are all card carrying members. Foot in mouth there.


  • #1124
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Godge wrote: »
    It is a pity the message hadn't got through to the front-ranks, as there were many of them blindly defending such a cut in the first few pages of this thread.
    Not as many as were blindly attacking a non-existent cut though, eh?


  • #1125
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1126
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1127
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Not as many as were blindly attacking a non-existent cut though, eh?

    What exactly do you mean, non-existent cut? We have established that SF have modified their figures in their 2014 Alternative Budgets to still be a cut, not quite as draconian, and no one has clarifed whether they are public only contracts still.


  • #1128
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Calina wrote: »
    What exactly do you mean, non-existent cut?
    The specific cut under discussion is non-existent.
    Some other cut proposals may exist, but that's a different question.
    No contradiction I'm afraid. Hard luck.


  • #1129
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    Christ,
    These Shinners are getting Orwellian!
    So when we're discussing a cut that doesn't exist we are actually discussing a different cut that does exist all along... yeah, sure.
    You know that two proposed cuts that are different are, well, different proposed cuts, right?


  • #1130
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The specific cut under discussion is non-existent.
    Some other cut proposals may exist, but that's a different question.
    No contradiction I'm afraid. Hard luck.

    It's not Dan. What matters is the underlying principle. I dislike it when people try to get off on a technicality, don't you?


  • #1131
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Yea,grand.

    Now, maybe you can answer my question.
    What are the qualifications required to be a minister for health?

    FG have appointed 2 GP's who's only answer is to increase management by 13% while overseeing a reduction in doctor numbers.

    Not great on this 'phone posting' thing so might have to get back to you later...


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  • #1132
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Calina wrote: »
    It's not Dan. What matters is the underlying principle. I dislike it when people try to get off on a technicality, don't you?
    Ah, I see. So numbers don't matter at all now. Shifting sands, eh?


  • #1133
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1134
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Hang on a second there now. This is from a guy moaning about 2013 data being quoted in a 2014 Irish Times article?

    The question was......
    LeeMajors wrote: »
    The original OP never once showed SF's intention to cut consultant and NCHD's pay to €100,000 pa.
    Minor detail, eh?

    Read the thread.

    The document in question clearly shows that SF did have an intention to cap salaries at €100k - unless you are going to argue that NCHDs do not draw from the public purse.

    You're observation would be correct if the original question had been couched in the present tense......for example....if it had been posited thus.....
    SF have no intention to cut consultant and NCHD's pay to €100,000 pa.
    Minor detail, eh?

    Read the thread.

    Then criticism for me going back to 2011 would be entirely valid.

    As I said, obfuscation and a poor attempt at it to boot.


  • #1135
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    No, I'm afraid I am referencing data. That Irish consultants get effectively twice what a UK consultant gets is nowhere presented as an "opinion" by anybody.
    Unless you are now proposing maths is an "opinion".

    Yes, again happy to quote OECD data when it suits the view that Irish consultants are paid twice the going rate in the UK.....

    ......less willing to accept OECD data when it shows that we enjoy a higher cost of living!

    My resurrecting of the OECD as a source was in relation to their view that disposable household income in Ireland is, on average, the equivalent of nearly $2000 less than the UK.


  • #1136
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    As usual with anti-SF posters, you're living in the past.
    This is 2015, not 2011.

    It is and as I said earlier your original post was expressed thus...
    LeeMajors wrote: »
    The original OP never once showed SF's intention to cut consultant and NCHD's pay to €100,000 pa.
    Minor detail, eh?

    Read the thread.

    The 2011 Health Doc seems pretty clear that SF intended to cap salaries at €100k - that may well not be policy to day but the document, when published, showed SF's intention to cut consultant and NCHD's pay, and the figure of €100k is mentioned quite specifically as a salary cap in the public sector.


  • #1137
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Ah, I see. So numbers don't matter at all now. Shifting sands, eh?

    I didn't say that, Dan.


  • #1138
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Then criticism for me going back to 2011 would be entirely valid.

    As I said, obfuscation and a poor attempt at it to boot.
    Ah, I see now. This is a history thread and we're discussion old outdated policy proposals.
    Seriously.


  • #1139
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Not as many as were blindly attacking a non-existent cut though, eh?

    Eh Dan, it went like this.

    OP quoted a radical SF policy of cutting public servants salaries to 100k. Sane posters questioned the policy saying it will never work and consultants will leave and we won't have any doctors. Shinnerbots rushed to defend said policy misquoting and misinterpreting various newspaper articles and data.

    It later emerges that SF have since backed off their policy and backed down along the lines the sane posters originally suggested. Shinnerbots who defended original policy left a bit embarrassed.

    Yet you think those who criticised the original earlier SF policy are the ones who were blind???:confused:


  • #1140
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Calina wrote: »
    I didn't say that, Dan.
    You did actually Calina when you said what the cut details weren't important "it's the principle".


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  • #1141
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    Christ,
    These Shinners are getting Orwellian!

    No, they are revisionist.


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