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Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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Comments

  • #1052
    frankbrett
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭frankbrett


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    The OP would have you believe that consultants and GP's would be cut to €100K.

    Some pay cuts would be in order ok as outlined above.

    Average consultant pay here is €171k, for their public work, that's without the real lucrative part of their annual take home.

    Average pay for a GP is €119k, well under the €150k mark where SF propose their cuts to start.

    Care to speculate on why they abandoned the policies outlined in the OP?


  • #1053
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Jawgap wrote: »
    ......and the €100k salary cap also proposed in the S F health policy?

    What about it?

    You want HSE cleaners to be able to earn over €100k?


  • #1054
    JacquesDeLad
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 969 ✭✭✭JacquesDeLad


    70 pages in and suddenly the Sinn Fein position on a 100k salary has changed.

    But only on Boards.

    No other media outlet has received this breaking news. What a scoop!


  • #1055
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    frankbrett wrote: »
    Care to speculate on why they abandoned the policies outlined in the OP?

    Which specific policy are you referring to?


  • #1056
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    What about it?

    You want HSE cleaners to be able to earn over €100k?

    Yes, I'd like to live in a country where someone can start in an organisation as a cleaner and finish up in senior management or even as CEO.


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  • #1057
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Yes, I'd like to live in a country where someone can start in an organisation as a cleaner and finish up in senior management or even as CEO.

    Yea, sure a cleaner in the HSE has a clear path open to him/her to eventually head up the HSE.
    Indeed, many cleaners go on to be successful consultants with a thriving private practice in state hospitals.
    Paddy's day is great, isn't it?


  • #1058
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Absolutely.

    I'm sure you'll agree that if what's outlined above is the case, then the howling in the OP was way off the mark though?

    Strictly speaking, no. You need to admit that what's in the actual health policy is misleading at best and contradictory and fully explains the OP.

    The other point which I would raise is that the health policy outlines that the contracts would be public only. It's not clear from what you've posted whether that still stands. In the event that it does, then I think it's fair to suggest that the income cuts for consultants and GPs would be substantially in excess of what you've posted.

    What is interesting is the difference between the contents of the health policy and what you've posted from the 2014 budget submission. It would be interesting to see the reasons for what is financially, quite a substantial change.


  • #1059
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Yea, sure a cleaner in the HSE has a clear path open to him/her to eventually head up the HSE.
    Indeed, many cleaners go on to be successful consultants with a thriving private practice in state hospitals.
    Paddy's day is great, isn't it?

    Sure they have,

    Part-time science degree......easy enough to work studies around cleaning shifts.

    Then into a GEM course to complete your med studies in 4 years (UCD, RCSI, UL, UCC etc) then out for your clinical studies.

    If, eventually, you want to move into clinical governance or leadership, the RCSI leadership and MBA courses are to be recommended.

    It's not impossible - my brother-in-law is a doctor, he started as a labourer / landscape gardener.


  • #1060
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Sure they have,

    Part-time science degree......easy enough to work studies around cleaning shifts.

    Then into a GEM course to complete your med studies in 4 years (UCD, RCSI, UL, UCC etc) then out for your clinical studies.

    If, eventually, you want to move into clinical governance or leadership, the RCSI leadership and MBA courses are to be recommended.

    It's not impossible - my brother-in-law is a doctor, he started as a labourer / landscape gardener.

    About as lightly as me winning the lotto.

    Tell me, in your obviously in depth studies into the Irish health service, how many people have gone on from minimum wage cleaning jobs to senior management in say, the last 10 years?


  • #1061
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    About as lightly as me winning the lotto.

    Tell me, in your obviously in depth studies into the Irish health service, how many people have gone on from minimum wage cleaning jobs to senior management in say, the last 10 years?

    I wouldn't have that info.

    But I know one senior manger as I went to school with him.


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  • #1062
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Jawgap wrote: »

    But I know one senior manger as I went to school with him.

    And? :confused::confused::confused:


  • #1063
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    And? :confused::confused::confused:

    Well it wasn't exactly a posh school and he came from 'fairly humble' beginnings too.

    Bit of effort, a dose of luck and a focused attitude can get you a long way.


  • #1064
    frankbrett
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭frankbrett


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Which specific policy are you referring to?

    The OP was 'debunked' because it was established it was an old policy that SF still had on their website and is different to the policy in the 2014 pre budget submission.

    The 2013 pre budget submission also has the €100k public sector cap but this was shelved for 2014. So I wonder why it has suddenly been abandoned?


  • #1065
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Well it wasn't exactly a posh school and he came from 'fairly humble' beginnings too.

    Bit of effort, a dose of luck and a focused attitude can get you a long way.

    I know.
    Started in a hardware shop myself 30 years ago, have my own business for the last 20.


  • #1066
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    JacquesDeLad wrote: »
    Somebody who pulls up Budget proposal figures to counter analysis of a policy of the same party is taking the absolute piss out of you all. It takes some basic literacy skills to make a connection between the two so they're not as confused as they're letting on to be.

    Stop the personal digs please.
    JacquesDeLad wrote: »
    70 pages in and suddenly the Sinn Fein position on a 100k salary has changed.

    But only on Boards.

    No other media outlet has received this breaking news. What a scoop!

    If you'd covered the thread or kept up with it, you'd see up to date policy was got from the party itself.

    If somebody has a link to same pm me, and I'll update the OP.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1067
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    frankbrett wrote: »
    The OP was 'debunked' because it was established it was an old policy that SF still had on their website and is different to the policy in the 2014 pre budget submission.

    The 2013 pre budget submission also has the €100k public sector cap but this was shelved for 2014. So I wonder why it has suddenly been abandoned?

    Maybe it wasn't possible to implement, what with the stronghold unions have on the civil service and government.

    SF were never given the mandate to attempt implement it though.

    Also, there was never a proposal to cut consultants and NCHD's pay to €100k as per the OP.


  • #1068
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    I know.
    Started in a hardware shop myself 30 years ago, have my own business for the last 20.

    Well there you go then.


  • #1069
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    As you are not an expert in social research, it might be helpful if you read and analysed the following:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_bias#Social_desirability_bias

    Now think about this. You are a doctor in a caring profession in an Irish culture of begrudgery where those that say they want more money at a time of recession are frowned upon. Now consider what type of social desirability bias would you expect from that survey?

    Then you will realise why some of us are looking at empirical evidence of behaviour rather than what some survey says.

    :D:D An organised or highly unlikely coincidental piece of group think in an anonymous survey?
    Just when I thought the antiSFbots couldn't stoop any lower, Godge confounds us again.


  • #1070
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    :D:D An organised or highly unlikely coincidental piece of group think in an anonymous survey?
    Just when I thought the antiSFbots couldn't stoop any lower, Godge confounds us again.


    As I thought, the research critique was too academic for this thread, and some had to resort to personal insults.


  • #1071
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    About as lightly as me winning the lotto.

    Tell me, in your obviously in depth studies into the Irish health service, how many people have gone on from minimum wage cleaning jobs to senior management in say, the last 10 years?

    Public sector careers last up to 40 years, you wouldn't see that kind of change in 10 years but it is often seen in a 40-year career. There are a number of Secretary Generals of government Departments who started off as clerical assistants.


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  • #1072
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Godge wrote: »
    As I thought, the research critique was too academic for this thread, and some had to resort to personal insults.
    You called them liars. I don't think anybody was confused by this, although you seem to be because you tried to hide it and it was transparent.


  • #1073
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    As I thought, the research critique was too academic for this thread, and some had to resort to personal insults.

    Did you miss this bit?
    An organised or highly unlikely coincidental piece of group think in an anonymous survey?


  • #1074
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You called them liars. I don't think anybody was confused by this, although you seem to be because you tried to hide it and it was transparent.


    Eh, Dan, you are the one a bit confused. Happyman and I see were talking about the so-called survey of doctors that said they were not interested in money (I laugh everytime I write that) not the piece of incomplete data analysis carried out by the OECD.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Did you miss this bit?

    Nope, but that is not what I said was going on and there are plenty of other cultural explanations for the answers.


  • #1075
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    Eh, Dan, you are the one a bit confused. Happyman and I see were talking about the so-called survey of doctors that said they were not interested in money (I laugh everytime I write that) not the piece of incomplete data analysis carried out by the OECD.



    Nope, but that is not what I said was going on and there are plenty of other cultural explanations for the answers.

    One piece of research is 'incomplete' and the participants in a professionally conducted survey are 'lying'. And you ask us to believe that you are not stretching recieved information to get it to mean what you want it it mean?


  • #1076
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    One piece of research is 'incomplete' and the participants in a professionally conducted survey are 'lying'. And you ask us to believe that you are not stretching recieved information to get it to mean what you want it it mean?

    I am pointing out the flaws in the surveys.

    I demonstrated, with links, the missing information in relation to the UK from the OECD data.

    I explained (in layman's terms) the response bias in the NUI Galway study.

    Unlike you guys, I rely on my critical faculties to make judgments about what is true and what is not. I don't run off to google and say "aha", I have won the argument. Firstly, don't believe everything you read or accept it at face value and secondly, nobody wins an argument on the net (but it is fun to pretend you win).


  • #1077
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Godge wrote: »
    I am pointing out the flaws in the surveys.
    Yes, you claimed the flaw was expecting doctors not to lie.


  • #1078
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    I am pointing out the flaws in the surveys.


    That just happen to suit what you want to say.

    You interpret them as lies and earlier as some sort of mystery code or euphemism.
    Incidentally, why didn't you quote that Wickipedia page when you made the point about 'euphemism', you wouldn't be trawling google yourself to find stuff to back up your argument? :rolleyes:

    It is not as if you haven't been called on bludgeoning evidence into the odd shaped boxes of your bias before, so don't be feeling too insulted.


  • #1079
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Can we get to actually arguing content of reports and posts, otherwise what's the point in posting them? <br />
    <br />
    The handbags might be fun for some but it's starting to look a bit evasive tbh.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1080
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    They where specifically asked about money and they said (as a group) that money was 'nt key' to their decision.
    To suggest that they where saying this while believing sometthing else is to say they were lying.I said they wouldn't admit to money being a key consideration. What reality? The one you have also invented?
    Many people are not solely interested in money and a group which you admit 'are from a caring profession' would feature quite a high percentage of people who are not solely interested in money.
    If reality was that people migrate solely for money then there would be nobody left in this country at all.
    Unless you can pluck a census off google to show that has come anywhere near to happening, i.e 'a mass exodus of everybody with a marketable skill'?

    Why would there be a mass exodus ? even after the downturn we are for the most part overpaid compared to our fellow Europeans, be it doctors teachers, nurses, esb etc .

    And let stop kidding ourselves at some level it is always about money , but that is never said - some euphemism is used - work life balance , student interests whatever .


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  • #1081
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    marienbad wrote: »
    Why would there be a mass exodus ? even after the downturn we are for the most part overpaid compared to our fellow Europeans, be it doctors teachers, nurses, esb etc .

    And let stop kidding ourselves at some level it is always about money , but that is never said - some euphemism is used - work life balance , student interests whatever .

    People who mention how 'overpaid' various professions are always leave out the second part of the equation - the country also has one of the highest costs of living in the EU and relatively low levels of public service provision.


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