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Poisoning/Shooting of Birds of Prey - Please read guidelines in first post

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  • #242
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,898 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    It's not vague in the slightest. If people consider it vague then its no surprise that other animals are getting poisoned. Aparantly if you lay poison it's not illegal until an eagle decides to eat it! By that logic the eagle is the guilty party.

    I actually think the debate here this evening on this subject served a good purpose as it helped to clear up any doubts on the issue. This can only be of benefit to further progress in the conservation of all protected species that are vulnerable to the misuse of any type of poison, pesticide etc.


  • #243
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    The legislation I quoted outlines how the use of poisoned meat is now banned in all circumstances
    No, it specifies how the use of poisoned meat is now banned in two specific circumstances. I'd be totally in favour of an outright ban, but that's not how it is. Check it again;
    recedite wrote: »
    "A person shall not place, cause to be placed or permit to be placed or
    have with him or her any poisoned or anaesthetic bait that is animal or contains animal substance or other animal derivative in any place to capture, kill, poison, stupefy, anaesthetise, harm or injure or where it is likely to capture, kill, poison, stupefy, anaesthetise, harm or injure:
    (i) any species referred to in Article 1 of the Birds Directive, or
    (ii) any species of wild fauna listed in Annexes IV(a) and V(a) to theHabitats Directive,except in accordance with a licence."


  • #244
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    recedite wrote: »
    No, it specifies how the use of poisoned meat is now banned in two specific circumstances. I'd be totally in favour of an outright ban, but that's not how it is. Check it again;

    It starts by saying any animal or animal derivitive?.


  • #245
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    recedite wrote: »
    No, it specifies how the use of poisoned meat is now banned in two specific circumstances. I'd be totally in favour of an outright ban, but that's not how it is. Check it again;

    I can see what you're basing your argument on, but you're not looking at the breakdown of the quote correctly.

    "A person shall not place, cause to be placed or permit to be placed or
    have with him or her any poisoned or anaesthetic bait that is animal or contains animal substance

    or

    other animal derivative in any place to capture, kill, poison, stupefy, anaesthetise, harm or injure

    or

    where it is likely to capture, kill, poison, stupefy, anaesthetise, harm or injure:
    (i) any species referred to in Article 1 of the Birds Directive, or
    (ii) any species of wild fauna listed in Annexes IV(a) and V(a) to theHabitats Directive,except in accordance with a licence."


    The second 'or' that I've highlighted seems to be the one you're overlooking I think


  • #246
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,898 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    OpenYourEyes wrote: »
    I can see what you're basing your argument on, but you're not looking at the breakdown of the quote correctly.

    "A person shall not place, cause to be placed or permit to be placed or
    have with him or her any poisoned or anaesthetic bait that is animal or contains animal substance

    or

    other animal derivative in any place to capture, kill, poison, stupefy, anaesthetise, harm or injure

    or

    where it is likely to capture, kill, poison, stupefy, anaesthetise, harm or injure:
    (i) any species referred to in Article 1 of the Birds Directive, or
    (ii) any species of wild fauna listed in Annexes IV(a) and V(a) to theHabitats Directive,except in accordance with a licence."


    The second 'or' that I've highlighted seems to be the one you're overlooking I think

    Yes - while the act itself does not refer to foxes, this part covers any circumstances where any protected species could concieviably have access to any poison meat bait. That would include leaving any such bait out in the open or under any such circumstances where a protected animal could get access. This taken in conjunction with the fact that no poison meat baits are licensed by the PCS for use against any mammal or bird in this country effectivly outlaws the use of all types of poison baits against foxes. This fact is clearly stated by the NPWS and MAFF on the link below

    http://www.npws.ie/legislationandconventions/irishlaw/baituserestrictions/

    from the link above:


    "At the same time, the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Mr Brendan Smith, announced that there are now no poisons which can legally be used to kill birds or animals, apart from rats and mice"

    and further down the link

    "The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (DAFF) has confirmed however that there is no pesticide registered or approved in the Republic of Ireland for poisoning of birds or foxes. Alphachloralose was previously registered, and commonly used, to kill crows but this approved use was removed by DAFF, in line with an EU decision, in November 2008. Alphachloralose is now only registered and approved in Ireland for the control of mice. Therefore any poisoning of foxes and crows is illegal in Ireland."


    There you have it folks - probably should have posted this initially to save people from my own rather long winded explanations;)


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  • #247
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    OpenYourEyes wrote: »
    The second 'or' that I've highlighted seems to be the one you're overlooking I think
    I'm not overlooking anything, but you have broken up the sentence into different parts there yourself, which changes the meaning of the thing.
    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Alphachloralose is now only registered and approved in Ireland for the control of mice. Therefore any poisoning of foxes and crows is illegal in Ireland."
    I appreciate that you have taken this straight from a NPWS document, but it is still a faulty conclusion. Just because no pesticides are approved does not mean no poisoning is allowed. For example, if it were possible to kill a fox by leaving out a large quantity of chocolate, that would not be illegal.
    Anyway, I won't go on about this any more, as it could be counterproductive.


  • #248
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,898 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    recedite wrote: »
    I appreciate that you have taken this straight from a NPWS document, but it is still a faulty conclusion. Just because no pesticides are approved does not mean no poisoning is allowed. For example, if it were possible to kill a fox by leaving out a large quantity of chocolate, that would not be illegal.
    Anyway, I won't go on about this any more, as it could be counterproductive.

    There is nothing "faulty" about it - chocolate is not classed as any type of pesticide, agriculture chemical,medicine or known toxic substance under the laws of this country or the EU covering both human and animal health. All of who's use and safe disposal are regulated and under the control of various government bodies including the Dept of Agriculture who jointly with the NPWS issued that clear statement concerning the illegality of poisoning foxes.

    In any case, the PCS as I have stated several times already, is the government body that regulates any type of chemical control of pest species in this country. If they have not licensed any substance for control of a particular animal species, then any attempt to poison said species is illegal under the laws of this country. That means if chocolate did happen to be toxic to foxes, then it would indeed be illegal to use against foxes as the law stands currently.



    PS: OpenYOurEyes reading of that piece of legislation is valid since the sentances are broken up in the same way with the use of commas and the word "or" in that link to the official act.


  • #249
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I'm afraid it happened again. Another red kite was found posined in Wicklow. Hopefully this poisoning will clear up doubts any Wicklow residents will have about the use of poisons. Link here.

    A young red kite has died from poisoning in a similar manner to its mother.
    The bird, about 20 months old and nearing breeding age, was found lying almost dead in Wicklow town, close to the golf club and a public footpath and road.
    It is the eleventh red kite to have died from poison.
    Dr Marc Ruddock, of the Golden Eagle Trust and manager of the kite reintroduction project, said irresponsible and illegal use of poison has proven to have killed two generations of the same family.
    "Every year we get tragic incidents like this. Illegally placing poison in the countryside puts wildlife, domestic animals and potentially members of the public at risk," he said.
    Two highly-toxic banned pesticides, carbofuran and alphachloralose, were found in the bird, believed to be a female. It is suspected the bird had been feeding on carrion illegally laced with the chemicals.
    The dead kite has been identified as Blue White 21 which fledged near the village of Redcross in 2011 and was the off-spring of Blue Purple G, an adult female poisoned by alphachloralose 13 months earlier near Brittas Bay, Co Wicklow.
    Jimmy Deenihan, Minister for the Arts, Heritage and Gaeltacht, appealed to anybody who may have more information about the deaths of these birds.
    "The pesticides used to poison these red kites were highly toxic. As soon as they were ingested these magnificent birds of prey - which are protected by law - would have had no chance of survival," he said.


  • #250
    Bsal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,788 ✭✭✭Bsal


    Absolute disgrace, what other birds/animals were feeding on this laced carrion aswell. Wildlife has it so hard in this country :mad:


  • #251
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,898 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Given the details of this case and the one last year, it appears that the problem in Wicklow is in and around the Wicklow Town to Brittas bay section of the Wicklow coast. Hopefully this will help with pinpointing the source. Carbofurdan is a very dangerous banned pesticide and can kill anyone or anything that comes in contact with it including pets and young children(there was a case in Kenya recently). This makes finding the culprit all the more important.


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  • #252
    whyulittle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭whyulittle


    Buzard found poisoned last Wednesday.
    This Buzzard was unfortunately found poisoned along with three hooded crows in the Dublin area last Wednesday. It appears that the crows were poisoned with tainted bread and the Buzzard died after he consumed the dead crows.
    Managing crow and fox numbers on farmland is generally accepted as a necessity. Poison is indiscriminate and can have a devastating effect on wildlife. We would ask anyone who feels the need to control wildlife populations to shoot them where possible.

    Since 2010 there are no poisons which can legally be used to kill birds or animals, apart from rats and mice!

    Any suspected poisonings should be reported to your regional NPWS ranger. The chances of a prosecution are increased greatly if the poisoned bait can be found and if the perpetrator is witnessed in the act.

    http://www.npws.ie/media/npws/images/Contact_numbers.pdf
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152678757535104&set=a.286536755103.317506.278016275103&type=1


  • #253
    cameramonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    whyulittle wrote: »
    Buzard found poisoned last Wednesday.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152678757535104&set=a.286536755103.317506.278016275103&type=1

    Where was this buzzard found in Dublin?


  • #254
    dodderangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,203 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    whyulittle wrote: »
    Buzard found poisoned last Wednesday.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152678757535104&set=a.286536755103.317506.278016275103&type=1

    I was in aughrim earlier and came across a dead rat which was completely stripped of its fur like it was skinned
    Effects of being poisoned perhaps and a bop would then eat it though I stomped it into the sand


  • #255
    whyulittle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭whyulittle


    Just posting this from IrishBirding, can't verify anything.
    One of two Buzzards apparently poisoned on a hare in Donabate earlier this week.

    Pic at the link below.

    http://www.irishbirding.com/birds/web/Display/sighting/76913/Buzzard.html


  • #256
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    whyulittle wrote: »
    Just posting this from IrishBirding, can't verify anything.



    Pic at the link below.

    Likely strychnine poisoning. Death is almost immediate after consuming poison. Animal generally doesn't have even time to fly off. No sheep/cattle in that area so unlikely a livestock farmer. Plenty of game/pheasant shooting so you can draw your own conclusions from that.


  • #257
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,898 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    Likely strychnine poisoning. Death is almost immediate after consuming poison. Animal generally doesn't have even time to fly off. No sheep/cattle in that area so unlikely a livestock farmer. Plenty of game/pheasant shooting so you can draw your own conclusions from that.

    No point speculating till this case passes through official channels in terms of carcass testing and other evidence. Will try to find out a bit more myself about this incident over the coming days.


  • #258
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    http://www.thejournal.ie/kerry-poison-dogs-2027259-Apr2015/
    Possible strynine poisoning in Killarney National Park:(


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