Poisoning/Shooting of Birds of Prey - Please read guidelines in first post

Mothman

This thread is for discussion and reports on poisoning and shooting of Birds of Prey in Ireland. We feel that it is important to have a venue for this discussion. However, given that such discussion in past threads has led to emotions running high and invariable dispute we are outlining guidelines and restrictions for this discussion.

1. Discussion is to focus on the whole of Ireland only, with links to reports.
2. No discussion with regard to birds outside of Ireland.
3. No speculative comments on what may or may not be happening without supportive evidence/ reports.
4. Refrain from emotionally reactive comments. (e.g. saying what you would like to happen to people who carry out the poisoning. a comment such as "My heart sank when I read that." is fine).
5. Advocating illegal actions is not allowed.
6. Any threads created about this matter will be merged with this one.
8. Use appropriate language for all readers.
7. The above guidelines will be amended at our discretion if deemed necessary.

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Pigeon Reaper

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/anger-as-yet-another-eagle-found-poisoned-2452166.html

Another one confirmed to have died from poisoning.

magicbastarder

how fast acting is that poison? killeter is less than five miles from the border, so it could be hard to tell where the poison was laid if it takes several hours to act.

snowstreams

It was definitely a strange time to have poison laid out. Usually poisonings happen in the springtime.
I wonder should there be an amnesty to help get rid of banned substances like carbofuran?

trebor28

i would think that some people might be poisoning rats or maybe a fox this time of year due to them venturing towards humans for sustenance.

just my two cents.

E39MSport

My heart sank when I read that.

Birdnuts

trebor28 wrote: »

i would think that some people might be poisoning rats or maybe a fox this time of year due to them venturing towards humans for sustenance.

just my two cents.

Apparently the bird was found weeks before the hard weather hit, which makes this case even more disturbing.

Feargal as Luimneach

The mudered five month old Golden Eagle chick:(

Birdnuts

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

The mudered five month old Golden Eagle chick:(

What a waste - I remember chatting to Lorcan O' Toole last spring after yet more eagle deaths and he speculated that they have lost nearly 50% of the stock to illegal persecution. Unbeleviable that this kind of thing could still be happening in 2010:mad:

Mothman

Latest poisoning on BirdwatchIreland website

bogtreader

A terrible thing to happen it will take a while for these poisonings to stop.
I think it was Lorcan o Toole who said in the RTE series that it boils down
to education.Hopefully it happens sooner rather than later:mad:

Birdnuts

Having spoken to a source close to this issue last night I am confident that some good will come out of this tragedy in that both relevant authorities and NGO's here and in NI will be working much closer together to close the net on the criminals involved in this outrage and other suspected incidents in this area and elsewhere in NI. Already some progress has been made on this case though for obvious reasons I will not be going into the details for now:)

Birdnuts

bogtreader wrote: »

A terrible thing to happen it will take a while for these poisonings to stop.
I think it was Lorcan o Toole who said in the RTE series that it boils down
to education.Hopefully it happens sooner rather than later:mad:

Good point - the ongoing failure of our education system to cover the vital areas of environmental resource mangement, valueing biodiversity etc. particulary at secondary level is shamefull in this day and age.:mad:

magicbastarder

i know this sounds a bit reactionary, but you probably need a qualification or licence to do most jobs in this country, so does the idea of a phased system of licencing farmers - the main idea being education - sound absurd?

Birdnuts

magicbastarder wrote: »

i know this sounds a bit reactionary, but you probably need a qualification or licence to do most jobs in this country, so does the idea of a phased system of licencing farmers - the main idea being education - sound absurd?

Not at all and to be fair this already happens to some degree during REPS training courses and farm walks etc. . - but to quote a line in a famous Paul Newman film"theres some people you just can't reach".;)

PS: Don't make the mistake of assuming all these incidents are connected to rogue farmers - the details of this case which as I said earlier I can't divulge too much about would suggest the culprit was not from the farming community - that is as much as I can say for now:)

Scotty #

Is it the general belief that the eagles are specifically being targeted?

magicbastarder

not as far as i understand; it's more that they're scavenging on poisoned carcasses left out for foxes and crows.

Scotty #

Ohh, I thought most eagles would only eat what they caught. I thought it was birds, rats, eating the poison and it moving up the food chain.

Birdnuts

magicbastarder wrote: »

not as far as i understand; it's more that they're scavenging on poisoned carcasses left out for foxes and crows.

Now thankfully illegal on both sides of the border though why it was only banned here last month (over 3 years into the project) beggars beleif:rolleyes: - I suspect it was to avoid a large fine from the EU.

PS: To be fair most sheep farmers do not use poison and instead use safe methods of vermin control such as shooting, trapping, better housing etc.

Birdnuts

Scotty # wrote: »

Ohh, I thought most eagles would only eat what they caught. I thought it was birds, rats, eating the poison and it moving up the food chain.

Most eagle spp. are carrion feeders in the harsh winter months - thats why Sea Eagles tend to move to the coast at this time of year to scavange seal carcasses and the like:)

Mothman

Scotty # wrote: »

Ohh, I thought most eagles would only eat what they caught. I thought it was birds, rats, eating the poison and it moving up the food chain.

Diet of Golden Eagles

Its main food preference across its range is medium sized mammals such as hares and Rabbits and a variety of birds including seabirds. Carrion including dead sheep and deer can also be an important part of the diet especially in winter.

My emphasis

Birdnuts

Indeed MM - the WTSE in particular is more a vulture then an eagle as most people understand the term:)

mallards

I'm ashamed that this has happened in my own county and hope the culprit or culprits are swiftly caught and either educated or punished if it was done on purpose. Anyone I have ever spoke with here, that had any knowledge of these birds looked forward to seeing them or had already enjoyed seeing them, including farmers, shooters, a gamekeeper and other country folk. I had the pleasure of watching one some years ago crossing my ground.

Mallards

trebor28

magicbastarder wrote: »

i know this sounds a bit reactionary, but you probably need a qualification or licence to do most jobs in this country, so does the idea of a phased system of licencing farmers - the main idea being education - sound absurd?

do the leaders of our government do any training for their jobs?

to become a farmer these days you have to go to farming colleges around the country and study for several months, afaik.

this is obviously only a quite recent occurrence.

Mothman

trebor28 wrote: »

to become a farmer these days you have to go to farming colleges around the country and study for several months, afaik.

this is obviously only a quite recent occurrence.

No, one does not have to go to college to be a farmer, but to avail of certain grants/reliefs a farmer needs to have completed some education. This can be done from home. This or something similar has been in place for at least 25 years

puheen

+1 To what Mallards said. As a fellow member of the Hunting Forum I can truly say that it has been a great pleasure to see an increase in the larger raptors over the past 15 or so years. I would ask anyone who has a problem with vermin to contact their local Gun Club to help with the problem rather than using poison as we are only to willing to help out, and the methods employed are very target specific.

RonMexico

Another Sea Eagle poisoned. :mad:

Feargal as Luimneach

RonMexico wrote: »

Another Sea Eagle poisoned. :mad:

It says in the report that another sea eagle was shot. Another two birds murdered:(

magicbastarder

i read that as 'this is the second bird killed in this area', but not necessarily in recent times.

marlin vs

What a pity, and a waste.

Feargal as Luimneach

The noose is tightening around the Eagles. Not only are they being attacked by people poisoning them, they are also being shot. The criminal who poisoned the eagle might not have intended the poison for foxes or crows (still illegal however). But the shooter who shot the sea eagle knew full what they were doing and that makes it more disturbing:mad::mad::mad:

E39MSport

I honestly cannot see a future in Ireland for these beauties. As long as there are even a handful of bad apples out there then they don't stand a chance. Legislation obviously hasn't helped. Would be nice to have a conviction though and see how that affects things. Sadly though I reckon that this will be policed like the roads are(nt).

magicbastarder

this article mentions an eagle shot in kerry - i suspect it's the same one as mentioned in the article above, but the article above does not give a time for when it was shot, so it's hard to tell if it's reporting it as a recent event.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0504/1224269640141.html

Birdnuts

Sadly not suprised by this - the gombeen attitude of some sheep farmers in Kerry was well illustrated in the recent RTE documentry on this issue. The fact that alot of these types are in receipt of hefty state handouts makes it all the more sickening and damages the reputation of Irish Farming and the many decent farmers who have done great work through REPS for wildlife and the rural environment. :mad:

PS: If we thought last lambing season would be bad for the eagles this one coming up could well be even more horrific given the casualty rate so early in the cycle:( - losing a female too is extra damaging to the project given the large gender imbalance of eagles released this year

LostCovey

magicbastarder wrote: »

this article mentions an eagle shot in kerry - i suspect it's the same one as mentioned in the article above, but the article above does not give a time for when it was shot, so it's hard to tell if it's reporting it as a recent event.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0504/1224269640141.html

One of the Kerry Sea Eagles was shot in Lough Neagh in Northern Ireland about this time last year.

LostCovey

Ptarmigan

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

The noose is tightening around the Eagles. Not only are they being attacked by people poisoning them, they are also being shot. The criminal who poisoned the eagle might not have intended the poison for foxes or crows (still illegal however). But the shooter who shot the sea eagle knew full what they were doing and that makes it more disturbing:mad::mad::mad:

Reminds of the time, back in the early 70s when someone shot a Snowy Owl down on the Wexford Slobs!
He actually claimed that he thought it was a Goose, demonstrating of course that he not only had bad eyesight, but also poor fieldcraft skills, so shouldn't have been allowed to go out shooting at all! :mad:

blackstairsboy

I am a keen shooter and also an avid fan of birds of prey. I cannot believe that a person could shoot an eagle. It must be devastating for those who put a lot of hard work into their conservation. I must say that I am very pleased to see that no one has gone and branded all shooters as the bad guys here. Thankfully you realize that any eagles that are found shot are shot by inconsiderate half wits who definitely do not have the support or backing of the greater shooting/hunting community. It is a great pity and I am saddened to hear about the poisonings and shootings.:(

Ptarmigan

blackstairsboy wrote: »

I am a keen shooter and also an avid fan of birds of prey. I cannot believe that a person could shoot an eagle. It must be devastating for those who put a lot of hard work into their conservation. I must say that I am very pleased to see that no one has gone and branded all shooters as the bad guys here. Thankfully you realize that any eagles that are found shot are shot by inconsiderate half wits who definitely do not have the support or backing of the greater shooting/hunting community. It is a great pity and I am saddened to hear about the poisonings and shootings.:(

I have been an avid Birdwatcher for over 50 years now, but I also worked as a Gamekeeper for a number of years, both in Ireland & Scotland & know, as well as you do, that people don't shoot these birds by accident! :mad:

As you say, there are responsible hunters & there are totally irresponsible eejits walking around playing Macho Man, in their fancy gear from the Army/Navy stores, giving everyone a bad name!

At the start of each Pheasant shoot, we always asked the guns not to shoot any of our holding birds, Bantams, Guinea Fowl. Now of course, nobody above the age of 3 could ever mistake a Bantam or Guinea Hen for a Pheasant, but of course we were always wasting our breath, cause they were always shot!

Once a bloke gets a gun in his hands, so many of them would go a little crazy, even shooting Pheasants on the ground, as they walked out between the waiting guns ... just to bring their numbers up for the day. Of course we also had Beaters being peppered by shot from eejits who should never have been allowed out. :mad:

Unfortunately, the sad fact is there are without doubt far, far too many people out there who should NOT have a gun!

Cheers
Dick

blackstairsboy

Ptarmigan wrote: »

I have been an avid Birdwatcher for over 50 years now, but I also worked as a Gamekeeper for a number of years, both in Ireland & Scotland & know, as well as you do, that people don't shoot these birds by accident! :mad:

As you say, there are responsible hunters & there are totally irresponsible eejits walking around playing Macho Man, in their fancy gear from the Army/Navy stores, giving everyone a bad name!

At the start of each Pheasant shoot, we always asked the guns not to shoot any of our holding birds, Bantams, Guinea Fowl. Now of course, nobody above the age of 3 could ever mistake a Bantam or Guinea Hen for a Pheasant, but of course we were always wasting our breath, cause they were always shot!

Once a bloke gets a gun in his hands, so many of them would go a little craz, even shooting Pheasants on the ground, as they walked out between the waiting guns ... just to bring their numbers up for the day. Of course we also had Beaters being peppered by shot from eejits who should never have been allowed out. :mad:

Unfortunately, the sad fact is there are without doubt far, far too many people out there who should NOT have a gun!

Cheers
Dick

I could not agree more with you I could think of three or four people I know who should not be allowed to have guns. I know these people to shoot from cars at pheasants on the ground in fields adjacent to the road and also at pheasants on the road. I know of one pair who shoot rabbits on a road with a 22 rifle out of the sunroof while driving along the road in the morning. These are the sort of people who will shoot the eagles. They are ignorant to the ways of the countryside and will claim that these birds will take all of the pheasants. The same person will not operate a larsen trap or do a bit of vermin control which will easily compensate for the birds the eagles may take.
I have no problems with birds of prey I love watching them on a summers evening, owls especially. I was thanking the birdwatching community for not tarring the whole shooting community with the one brush. They understand that any birds found shot are shot by these idiots. I appreciate the work the organisations are doing to reintroduce and manage the populations of these birds in this country.

Mothman

This thread was not created to discuss shooting or shooting of Birds of Prey. I will discuss with my fellow mods, but at moment I favour amending guidelines as suggested by a reported post to include shooting of BoP under a general title of Persecution of Birds of Prey. This forum does not cover more general discussion of shooting. If we do continue with this thead specific to poisoning then I'll move the recent posts about shooting of BoP to a new thread.

blackstairsboy

Apologies, I thought the thread was just about the general persecution of birds of prey and was not specific to just poisonings. I am away from my comfort zone of the shooting forum.;)

steddyeddy

Guys does anyone know what is being done about this apart from people repeating this is not acceptable on the news?

LostCovey

steddyeddy wrote: »

Guys does anyone know what is being done about this apart from people repeating this is not acceptable on the news?

What else can be done about it steddyeddy?

Giving it lots of coverage in public forums, and dealing with all the myths and nonsense propagated by people who lay poison is the best chance of changing perceptions.

It is illegal to poison a bird of prey in Ireland but almost impossible to prosecute and prove. First you have to find the dead bird, find what it died of, find where it got it, who put it there, and then go back and ensure you have forensic proof beyond reasonable doubt for every link of this chain.

Your implied criticism suggests that something else should be done.

What have you in mind?

LostCovey

steddyeddy

LostCovey wrote: »

What else can be done about it steddyeddy?

Giving it lots of coverage in public forums, and dealing with all the myths and nonsense propagated by people who lay poison is the best chance of changing perceptions.

It is illegal to poison a bird of prey in Ireland but almost impossible to prosecute and prove. First you have to find the dead bird, find what it died of, find where it got it, who put it there, and then go back and ensure you have forensic proof beyond reasonable doubt for every link of this chain.

Your implied criticism suggests that something else should be done.

What have you in mind?

LostCovey

Well I worked in american conservation and I cant understand why people are getting away with this, is there not a law here that says killing these birds is illegal. Surely they could at least find out who is buying the strychnine and other poisons by checking sales records? They could then use that information to narrow down their search. As far as I know this rudimentary step is not being done.

magicbastarder

it's not strychnine being used, it's mainly chloralose afaik, and i don't know if there's a record kept of who buys it; and it's such a widely used poison that it'd be impossible to trace poison found in a bird back to the source.
i can go over to woodies and buy chloralose easily; it's a general rodenticide.

homerhop

It is illegal here to poison them, and the sale of strychnine has been illegal for quiet some years, so how do you trace who has it?

steddyeddy

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's not strychnine being used, it's mainly chloralose afaik, and i don't know if there's a record kept of who buys it; and it's such a widely used poison that it'd be impossible to trace poison found in a bird back to the source.
i can go over to woodies and buy chloralose easily; it's a general rodenticide.

ah my mistake I thought there was at least one case of strychnine poisoning.

Birdnuts

Speaking to someone close to the projects there is now the potential to connect illegally poisoned livestock and game carcasses to culpable landowners. Work at Edinborough Uni has resulted in a new process that can analyse DNA from a suspect carcass and compare it with the DNA from surrounding vegitation on a farm/estate. This process will be able to show that that the dead sheep or whatever spent its life in that area giving a direct link to the landowner in question. It will then be up to him/her to explain 1) Why the allowed an unburied carcass on their land?? and 2) how it came to be used for illegal purposes??. Not the whole anwer to the problem but certainly a usefull extra tool that increases the likelyhood of a succesfull conviction.:)

LostCovey

Birdnuts wrote: »

Speaking to someone close to the projects there is now the potential to connect illegally poisoned livestock and game carcasses to culpable landowners. Work at Edinborough Uni has resulted in a new process that can analyse DNA from a suspect carcass and compare it with the DNA from surrounding vegitation on a farm/estate. This process will be able to show that that the dead sheep or whatever spent its life in that area giving a direct link to the landowner in question. It will then be up to him/her to explain 1) Why the allowed an unburied carcass on their land?? and 2) how it came to be used for illegal purposes??. Not the whole anwer to the problem but certainly a usefull extra tool that increases the likelyhood of a succesfull conviction.:)

Well I think that technology may be based upon stable isotopes rather than DNA, but even so it won't ever convict anyone. Unfortunately.

Say if one of my lambs dies tonight, you take it out of the field before I find it, poison it and put it in Feargal's field.

A crime-fighting approach won't work in my opinion.

LC

LostCovey

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well I worked in american conservation and I cant understand why people are getting away with this, is there not a law here that says killing these birds is illegal. Surely they could at least find out who is buying the strychnine and other poisons by checking sales records? They could then use that information to narrow down their search. As far as I know this rudimentary step is not being done.

Unfortunately the Irish are appraently more creative than the Americans. A lot of readily available chemicals, which don't have to be signed for are being used.

The very fact that strychnine is available in the states, even in a restricted way, suggests that it is being used responsibly, because it had to be outlawed here decades ago.

There is plenty of will to tackle our problem here, but if it were as easy as you suggest, it would have been done years ago.

LC

steddyeddy

LostCovey wrote: »

Well I think that technology may be based upon stable isotopes rather than DNA, but even so it won't ever convict anyone. Unfortunately.

Say if one of my lambs dies tonight, you take it out of the field before I find it, poison it and put it in Feargal's field.

A crime-fighting approach won't work in my opinion.

LC

from what i know its dna based, stable isotopes wouldnt be adequate in proving culpability. Why wont a crime fighting aproach work? In fairness education wont work, some people will never understand the basics.