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Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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Comments

  • #992
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    It may or may not. But throwing allegations at others doesn't really work when you engage in bot-like posting yourself.
    Silly is as silly does etc etc.

    Let me guess.....

    'Yore momma' thought taught you that.

    Actually, isn't SF's policies like a box of chocolates......you never know what you're going to get next......:D


  • #993
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Let me guess.....

    'Yore momma' thought you that.

    What?


  • #994
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    What?

    0f866636f5729870dc9c454e0af4e645be1dfe319859559187c0a387fbe721af.jpg


  • #995
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Jawgap wrote: »
    0f866636f5729870dc9c454e0af4e645be1dfe319859559187c0a387fbe721af.jpg

    Ah right, thanks for explaining. My 6 year old gets confused about how to spell 'taught' too. Common problem. Hopefully he'll grow out of it.


  • #996
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Ah right, thanks for explaining. My 6 year old gets confused about how to spell 'taught' too. Common problem. Hopefully he'll grow out of it.

    Well that's why I get for relying on autocorrect :D


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  • #997
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Well that's why I get for relying on autocorrect :D

    My son blames his own stupidity and nothing else, which is very mature of him imo. It means he will probably grow out of it.


  • #998
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    My son blames his own stupidity and nothing else, which is very mature of him imo. It means he will probably grow out of it.

    Good for him.

    I pride myself on my standard of written English, grammar and syntax - but occasionally I over-rely on the technology.

    Well done on catching it.:)


  • #999
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    JacquesDeLad wrote: »
    Attention All:

    I'm off to do some normal everyday stuff because I'm a normal everyday kinda guy. Not an internet bot for a political party. I'm so average and well balanced I thought I'd tell you, just so you know.

    Have a great St. Patrick's Day!

    Reported for what it is.;)


  • #1000
    JacquesDeLad
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 969 ✭✭✭JacquesDeLad


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    This kind of posting



    from somebody who contributes this to a debate on health?



    And you want us to believe that you aren't an irrational antiSFbot? :rolleyes:

    It's like a reflex action, point that finger.

    My posting in this thread has been of an equal and at times better standard than those like yourself who would write miles of text without imparting any knowledge.

    I've provided a more credible explanation of how Sinn Fein's proposed policy could work than your "it will because it will" non-answers.

    I feel sorry for people who spend time researching detailed cogent arguments only to be met with cowardly, deflecting and inspid replies like yours every time.

    Discussions involving Sinn Fein always gravitate towards a certain intellectual level and it isn't because the people who might criticise Sinn Fein try to dumb down the the conversation, it's always frustratingly the opposite.

    Try raise your game if you can. :rolleyes:


  • #1001
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    From the SF health policy.....
    One reason for inappropriate prescribing may lie in the opaque relationship between the medical profession and the pharmacuetical industry. Major pharmaceutical companies, such as United Brands, sponsor medical conferences for doctors in luxury hotels. Moreover, there are no restrictions on general practitioners or hospital consultants investing in shares in the pharmaceutical or other healthcare industries or in private hospitals or clinics. The conflict of interest between the doctor as healer and the doctor as drug manufacturer needs to be recognised.

    I'm not sure if this paranoia or begrudgery, but it reads like something you'd find in Conspiracy Theories rather than in the health policy of a party aiming for government!

    Wonder if they were wearing their tinfoil hats while writing this :D


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  • #1002
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Actually, isn't SF's policies like a box of chocolates......
    "aren't SF's policies..." It's a plural.
    Glad to be of service.


  • #1003
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Mod:

    Posts from SF thread relevant to here moved to this one, discussion on the rules posts relevant to here moved from new thread to here.

    Keep it in here instead of it taking over the whole forum!

    Thank you.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1004
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    JacquesDeLad wrote: »
    For a guy claims to run a business Lee Majors seems very new to the concept of supply and demand in the labour market.

    Maybe he only uses volunteers at the Elf Workshop.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    "aren't SF's policies..." It's a plural.
    Glad to be of service.

    Cut out the personal stuff, thank you.

    The potential for a good thread is here. I'd suggest not giving those looking for a reaction what they want, makes our jobs easier.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1005
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    JacquesDeLad wrote: »
    It's like a reflex action, point that finger.

    My posting in this thread has been of an equal and at times better standard than those like yourself who would write miles of text without imparting any knowledge.
    Must have been somebody else who posted that quote I used so. :rolleyes:
    I've provided a more credible explanation of how Sinn Fein's proposed policy could work than your "it will because it will" non-answers.

    I feel sorry for people who spend time researching detailed cogent arguments only to be met with cowardly, deflecting and inspid replies like yours every time.

    Mine?
    I'll remind you that I am the only one as yet to have posted what doctors themselves are saying, and it has been totally ignored by the antiSFbots.
    So far this is what has been contributed by my 'intellectual superiors' ''Working conditions' are a euphemism for money' when the doctors explicitly state elsewhere in the survey that 'money is not the primary reason for leaving'.
    And the other 'erudite' and 'intelligent' answer seems to be 'I believe there will be a 'mass exodus' because I believe it'. :rolleyes:


  • #1006
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Must have been somebody else who posted that quote I used so. :rolleyes:



    Mine?
    I'll remind you that I am the only one as yet to have posted what doctors themselves are saying, and it has been totally ignored by the antiSFbots.
    So far this is what has been contributed by my 'intellectual superiors' ''Working conditions' are a euphemism for money' when the doctors explicitly state elsewhere in the survey that 'money is not the primary reason for leaving'.
    And the other 'erudite' and 'intelligent' answer seems to be 'I believe there will be a 'mass exodus' because I believe it'. :rolleyes:

    SF's health policy is 4 years out of date but none of its contents suggest that SF can deliver improved working conditions.

    There is already anecdotal evidence highlighting that reduced salaries are clearly linked with hiring difficulties. I don't care if you want to ignore it, that's not my problem. The number of doctors per 1000 people in this country fell from 3.4 to 2.7 at the time that the country also cut salaries.

    Why are you ignoring this information?


  • #1007
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Must have been somebody else who posted that quote I used so. :rolleyes:



    Mine?
    I'll remind you that I am the only one as yet to have posted what doctors themselves are saying, and it has been totally ignored by the antiSFbots.
    So far this is what has been contributed by my 'intellectual superiors' ''Working conditions' are a euphemism for money' when the doctors explicitly state elsewhere in the survey that 'money is not the primary reason for leaving'.
    And the other 'erudite' and 'intelligent' answer seems to be 'I believe there will be a 'mass exodus' because I believe it'. :rolleyes:

    I produced a report on NCHD's here myself happyman, showing that working conditions, facilities, career paths etc were higher up on the list of concerns than money for these people.

    This lot aren't interested, once the €100,000 PA for consultants claim was shown for the BS that it is, the usual crap ensued.


  • #1008
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Calina wrote: »
    SF's health policy is 4 years out of date but none of its contents suggest that SF can deliver improved working conditions.

    There is already anecdotal evidence highlighting that reduced salaries are clearly linked with hiring difficulties. I don't care if you want to ignore it, that's not my problem. The number of doctors per 1000 people in this country fell from 3.4 to 2.7 at the time that the country also cut salaries.

    Why are you ignoring this information?

    How many doctors per 1,000 head of population are needed?
    It's 2.7 in the UK.


  • #1009
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    How many doctors per 1,000 head of population are needed?
    It's 2.7 in the UK.

    It's 4.1 in Italy. And 3.4 in Germany.

    Why focus on the English speaking country?


  • #1010
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Calina wrote: »
    It's 4.1 in Italy. And 3.4 in Germany.

    Grand.
    How many doctors per 1,000 people are needed?


  • #1011
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Calina wrote: »
    SF's health policy is 4 years out of date

    Can you show FG or Labour's health policy?
    Say, for 2014.


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  • #1012
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Calina wrote: »
    SF's health policy is 4 years out of date but none of its contents suggest that SF can deliver improved working conditions.

    There is already anecdotal evidence highlighting that reduced salaries are clearly linked with hiring difficulties. I don't care if you want to ignore it, that's not my problem. The number of doctors per 1000 people in this country fell from 3.4 to 2.7 at the time that the country also cut salaries.

    Why are you ignoring this information?

    So 'anecdotal' trumps what doctors are saying in a comprehensive survey published last week?
    Well there is no countering any argument if that is the case. I can attribute anything I want to 'anecdotal evidence'.

    In that survey doctors said that 'working conditions and work life balance' are the reasons for leaving. Doesn't 'anecdotal' evidence support this? The Health Service has been in a downward spiral for both consumers of it and workers in it for the past 10 and more years. How many on trollies today I wonder?


  • #1013
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Calina wrote: »
    It's 4.1 in Italy. And 3.4 in Germany.

    Why focus on the English speaking country?

    It's 3.6 in Kazakhstan. Life expectancy is 69 years.

    It's 4.1 in Lithuania. Life expectancy is 73 years.

    It's 2.7 in Ireland. Life expectancy is 80 years.

    What's your point?


  • #1014
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Grand.
    How many doctors per 1,000 people are needed?

    This doesn't matter. The question under discussion is whether a reduction in salaries for doctors results in a decrease in the number of doctors in the system.

    World Bank data indicates there is a correlation.
    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Can you show FG or Labour's health policy?
    Say, for 2014.

    I might, at some point, in a thread discussing FG or Labour's health policy. However, if you want it, maybe you go and find it like I did with the SF policy this morning. I'm not in the business of spoon feeding you too much. Right now, however, I'm interested in the SF policy. You want to compare it to the other parties, you go and do it. Do not ask me to do it for you.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    So 'anecdotal' trumps what doctors are saying in a comprehensive survey published last week?
    Well there is no countering any argument if that is the case. I can attribute anything I want to 'anecdotal evidence'.

    In that survey doctors said that 'working conditions and work life balance' are the reasons for leaving. Doesn't 'anecdotal' evidence tell us that the Health Service has been in a downward spiral for both consumers of it and workers in it for the past 10 and more years. How many on trollies today I wonder?

    I have provided data - actual numbers - on the impact of reduced salaries on the number of doctors in the system. Even if you don't want to accept that the HSE had issues hiring and had to increase salaries to do so, I personally have not provided anecdotal evidence, but World Bank data.

    What is your problem with that?


  • #1015
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,202 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Let me get this straight because there has been a lot in a few threads.

    1. We can't attract enough consultants today
    2. SF proposals to cut 30% off their salaries, or reduce them to 100k, or whatever their policy is this week, would inevitably reduce the attraction of working in Ireland
    3. We are now arguing whether we even need that many consultants? Is this really the argument from the SF supporters?


  • #1016
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    hmmm wrote: »
    Let me get this straight because there has been a lot in a few threads.

    1. We can't attract enough consultants today
    2. SF proposals to cut 30% off their salaries, or reduce them to 100k, or whatever their policy is this week, would inevitably reduce the attraction of working in Ireland
    3. We are now arguing whether we even need that many consultants? Is this really the argument from the SF supporters?

    You lads have all the answers.
    How many is 'enough' consultants?
    Maybe you could tell us.


  • #1017
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    You lads have all the answers.
    How many is 'enough' consultants?
    Maybe you could tell us.

    I reckon SF might want to work that out before they decide what to do about the salaries.


  • #1018
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Calina wrote: »
    This doesn't matter. The question under discussion is whether a reduction in salaries for doctors results in a decrease in the number of doctors in the system.

    So, you're going on and on about it being 2.7 per 1,000 in Ireland compared to 4.1 per 1,000 in Italy, but that 'doesn't matter'.

    Righteo :pac:


  • #1019
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    So, you're going on and on about it being 2.7 per 1,000 in Ireland compared to 4.1 per 1,000 in Italy, but that 'doesn't matter'.

    Righteo :pac:

    No. I am pointing out the change from 3.4 to 2.7.

    The change. The fall in numbers at the same time as a salary cut.


  • #1020
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Calina wrote: »



    I have provided data - actual numbers - on the impact of reduced salaries on the number of doctors in the system. Even if you don't want to accept that the HSE had issues hiring and had to increase salaries to do so, I personally have not provided anecdotal evidence, but World Bank data.

    What is your problem with that?

    The HSE are incompetent, look at the shambles of a service they run for evidence of that and it is in their interests not to fill positions when they are in wage negotiations and defence of the ott salaries that are paid in the PS.


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  • #1021
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Calina wrote: »
    No. I am pointing out the change from 3.4 to 2.7.

    The change. The fall in numbers at the same time as a salary cut.

    And it's been pointed out to you and others time and time again that salary cuts aren't the main reason for doctors leaving the Irish health system.

    You obviously aren't interested in why people are leaving, but I'll just remind you of this.

    SINN FEIN AREN'T IN GOVERNMENT HERE - FG & LABOUR ARE!


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