Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

marienbad · 13-03-2015 12:09PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Sure is, if you are able to post anything civil, or present a single argument for atheism, or against theism, without having to resort to logical fallacies and false premises and ad hominem each and every time.

Looking forward to the day you present any arguments, answer any questions, or reply to any post by not attacking posters instead of the post, or delivering useless drive-by one liners.

Grow up and stop blaming other for your doubts .

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 12:12PM

marienbad wrote: »

Grow up and stop blaming other for your doubts .

I see you're consistent in your ad hominem.

Bit of a Freudian slip there though.

I'm the one that believes, you're the one that doubts.

TheLurker · 13-03-2015 12:14PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

As per the forum charter, the apostles creed for starters.

Created universe - many religions claim exists of gods or beings who did this
Resurrected the dead - many religions claim beings with this power
Conceived human babies - again common in Greek, Roman, African religions
Travelled to heaven - dito
Ever lasting life - dito

So nope, sorry nothing there that if a being demonstrated those powers I could tell it was the Christian God over any other of the countless claimed beings with same power

TheLurker · 13-03-2015 12:16PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

I see you're consistent in your ad hominem.

Bit of a Freudian slip there though.

I'm the one that believes, you're the one that doubts.

You don't seem to know what an ad hominem is.

It is not simply an attack on you. Saying 'grow up' is not an ad hominem.

An ad hominem is the claim that your argument is invalid because of some irrelevant property (How can we believe in Obama's economic policy, he was born in Africa!)

By your own admission you don't put forward many arguments, so I'm not sure how someone can be attacking your arguments with ad hominems

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 12:16PM

TheLurker wrote: »

Created universe - many religions claim exists of gods or beings who did this
Resurrected the dead - many religions claim beings with this power
Conceived human babies - again common in Greek, Roman, African religions
Travelled to heaven - dito
Ever lasting life - dito

So nope, sorry nothing there that if a being demonstrated those powers I could tell it was the Christian God over any other of the countless claimed beings with same power

Then you'll have no bother naming one, that conforms to all aspects of the creed, including the trinity.

marienbad · 13-03-2015 12:17PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

I see you're consistent in your ad hominem.

Bit of a Freudian slip there though.

I'm the one that believes, you're the one that doubts.

Keep telling yourself that.

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 12:18PM

TheLurker wrote: »

You don't seem to know what an ad hominem is.

It is not simply an attack on you. Saying 'grow up' is not an ad hominem.

An ad hominem is the claim that your argument is invalid because of some irrelevant property (How can we believe in Obama's economic policy, he was born in Africa!)

By your own admission you don't put forward many arguments, so I'm not sure how someone can be attacking your arguments with ad hominems

I see now you've resorted to attacking posters instead of the post as well.

Ah well.

TheLurker · 13-03-2015 12:35PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

I see now you've resorted to attacking posters instead of the post as well.

Ah well.

I'm attacking your posts, which regularly accuse people incorrectly of using ad hominem against you.

They don't use ad hominem's against you. Your posts are wrong.

As a personal request can you please stop derailing the threat with false accusations and stick to dealing with the points put to you.

TheLurker · 13-03-2015 12:45PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Then you'll have no bother naming one, that conforms to all aspects of the creed, including the trinity.

Sure. Zeus. Or practically any of the Greek Gods. Though technically they didn't create the universe, though given they could create a new universe that makes it hard to tell if they created this universe.

As for the trinity, all the trinity means from a practical sense is that God can split himself off into different parts, some of them human. Zeus did that all the time, normally to have sex with human women.

So again I'm unaware of any ability the Christian God is supposed to have that various other deities are not supposed to have. If you can name one I'm all ears.

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 12:47PM

TheLurker wrote: »

I'm attacking your posts, which regularly accuse people incorrectly of using ad hominem against you.

They don't use ad hominem's against you. Your posts are wrong.

As a personal request can you please stop derailing the threat with false accusations and stick to dealing with the points put to you.

Whenever someone actually posts something that is about the post rather than the poster, I always do. I'll be looking forward to you heeding your own advice.

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 12:48PM

TheLurker wrote: »

Sure. Zeus.

Point by point on the creed, can you explain how Zeus complies with it, including the trinity.

marienbad · 13-03-2015 12:48PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Whenever someone actually posts something that is about the post rather than the poster, I always do. I'll be looking forward to you heeding your own advice.

Are you actually reading the thread ?

marienbad · 13-03-2015 12:48PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Point by point on the creed, can you explain how Zues complies with it, including the trinity.

Why ?

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 12:49PM

marienbad wrote: »

Are you actually reading the thread ?

Are you ?

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 12:50PM

marienbad wrote: »

Why ?

Because presumably he can prove his claim, can you ?

TheLurker · 13-03-2015 12:53PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Whenever someone actually posts something that is about the post rather than the poster, I always do.

No you don't.

The majority of your posts are complaining that the poster has done something wrong, normally claiming incorrectly that they have used a fallacy.

Which would be fine if you actually explained the fallacy. But you commonly don't, with the excuse that you already did a few posts back. Yet I can't find these explanations and you don't link to them.

So it just seems to be a tactic for avoiding the points.

marienbad · 13-03-2015 12:56PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Are you ?

yeah always , you are not even replying to some of the posts .

marienbad · 13-03-2015 12:58PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Because presumably he can prove his claim, can you ?

Why would a non believer even bother with such a thing ?

hinault · 13-03-2015 12:59PM

To save time, can the protestants here tell us which of the 40,000+ denominations they belong to?

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 12:59PM

marienbad wrote: »

yeah always , you are not even replying to some of the posts .

Which posts ?

hinault · 13-03-2015 01:00PM

marienbad wrote: »

Why would a non believer even bother with such a thing ?

You're an atheist? Or an agnostic? Or what?

TheLurker · 13-03-2015 01:08PM

I'm assuming he is holding onto the idea that the god described by Christianity is some special unique being never before contemplated by the human mind.

Of course nothing could be further than the truth. The Christian god is simply another rehash of the common god archetype.

As such if a being was actually in front of us we would have a hard time telling which one he was.

Christians tend to deal with this problem by inserting certain nonsense restrictions on the being, such as he could not lie. Of course there is no reason to suppose this is actually true.

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 01:10PM

TheLurker wrote: »

No you don't.

The majority of your posts are complaining that the poster has done something wrong, normally claiming incorrectly that they have used a fallacy.

Which would be fine if you actually explained the fallacy. But you commonly don't, with the excuse that you already did a few posts back. Yet I can't find these explanations and you don't link to them.

So it just seems to be a tactic for avoiding the points.

You've made a claim about Zeus and Christianity, are you going to back it up with anything ?

If someone uses false premises and logical fallacy in a claim or argument against theism, or christianity, and If they don't know what ad hominmen, or non sequitur means in terms of logical fallacies, then they should really look up such basic terms before constucting their arguments.

If you reformulate your argument, and have a go at removing the fallacies or false premises already identifed for you, I'll take a look at it again, and I'll even help you reformulate it so that it doesn't contain any fallacies or false premises I can identify, if I can think of a way of doing so.

It's good advice to check the premises of your argument, and check it against any of the lists of common fallacies are out there before you post it, that way you'll save yourself a lot of time and make a better argument.

TheLurker · 13-03-2015 01:15PM

Cen taurus wrote:

You've made a claim about Zeus and Christianity, are you going to back it up with anything ?

It is claimed by Greek mythology that Zeus can do the things described

What part of that do you find unsatisfactory and I will try to provide you with more.

Do you dispute the Greeks claimed this?

galljga1 · 13-03-2015 01:17PM

hinault wrote: »

To save time, can the protestants here tell us which of the 40,000+ denominations they belong to?

I am a protestant who belongs to the catholic church, or do I?
Are you planning an attack on all protestants?

I do find the various ongoing debates between theism and atheism interesting and can appreciate both sides. I am closer to atheism, I just cannot believe the whole old book thing. I find it extraordinary that people can believe in it but that is just me.

However I find it intriguing that one can believe in the bible, and use various passages, quotes etc to attack and demean other believers. I am not a theologian but I would guess you could find passages in the bible to counteract any argument put forward by catholics, those belonging to 40000 (are there that many?) protestant churches or a good old anti church atheist.

Intersting quote: even if there genuinely were 30,000 Protestant denominations, one thing all Protestant denominations agree on is that the Roman Catholic Church is not the one true church of God.

I would go along with that.

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 01:19PM

TheLurker wrote: »

It is claimed by Greek mythology that Zeus can do the things described.

What part of that do you find unsatisfactory and I will try and respond further

Thanks. I've already asked for this, and was wondering when you were going to address it.

The forum charter defines Christian belief as the contents of the apostles creed.

Your claim was that Zeus matches the definition of the Christian God, therefore, you should be able to go through the apostles creed point by point, compare it with sources from Greek mythology, and demonstrate this pretty easily if your claim is true.

Delirium · 13-03-2015 01:20PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

I see now you've resorted to attacking posters instead of the post as well.

Ah well.

Attacking the poster, rather than the post, is against the charter.

The post you quoted isn't attacking you but rather disagreeing with your use of ad hominem in reply to some posts on this thread.

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 01:22PM

Can you explain that for me, quoting the posts that lead up to it ?

TheLurker · 13-03-2015 01:32PM

Cen taurus wrote:

Your claim was that Zeus matches the definition of the Christian God, therefore, you should be able to go through the apostles creed point by point, compare it with sources from Greek mythology, and demonstrate this pretty easily if your claim is true.

I can but first I wanted to know which bit you don't accept so I don't waste my time. Greek myth is pretty common knowledge, so I'm surprised you require this much detail. If I go to the bother of detailing all the claims just to have you skip on to another point I will be rather annoyed, particularly when you don't seem to want to detail where the problem actually is

So can you reassure me I am not simply wasting my time?

Cen taurus · 13-03-2015 01:37PM

TheLurker wrote: »

I can but first I wanted to know which bit you don't accept so I don't waste my time. Greek myth is pretty common knowledge, so I'm surprised you require this much detail. If I go to the bother of detailing all the claims just to have you skip on to another point I will be rather annoyed, particularly when you don't seem to want to detail where the problem actually is

So can you reassure me I am not simply wasting my time?

You didn't give any bits, you just gave a one liner.

If you didn't put the work in to examining your own claim for accuracy and errors before you threw it out there, I can't reassure you of anything.

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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