Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

TheLurker · 12-03-2015 12:30PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

That's the problem, what proof would that be though.

e.g. what proof [or evidence] could you ask God for, to prove he wasn't a very advanced alien spirit or suchlike, pretending to be God ? and why would it be evidence.

Can anyone think of any examples ?

You would first have to clarify a defining set of characteristics for 'God'. Otherwise the term is useless in a rational sense.

Cen taurus · 12-03-2015 12:31PM

TheLurker wrote: »

Any update on this? I've gone back over your posts and I can't find a detail of the 'fallacies' that apply to this?

Of course there is a lot of posts, I might have missed it, and you have more knowledge of what you wrote than me.

Thanks

From what I remember, it's main issue was a non sequitur between premises/conclusion, but if you check the structure, improve it, and then post it again, I'll take a look at it for you to see if we can improve on it.

Cen taurus · 12-03-2015 12:33PM

TheLurker wrote: »

You would first have to clarify a defining set of characteristics for 'God'. Otherwise the term is useless in a rational sense.

Well you might have missed the discussion earlier where we agreed, for the sake of discussion, and considering the forum we're in, to assume we're addressing theism/Christianity.

TheLurker · 12-03-2015 12:37PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Well you might have missed the discussion earlier where we agreed, for the sake of discussion, and considering the forum we're in, to assume we're addressing theism/Christianity.

I know you are addressing theism/Christianity. Christianity has not defined God in any meaningful sense. That would be the first step. Though it sort of gets in the way of the Christian cop out that God is 'unknowable'

Cen taurus · 12-03-2015 12:59PM

TheLurker wrote: »

I know you are addressing theism/Christianity. Christianity has not defined God in any meaningful sense. That would be the first step. Though it sort of gets in the way of the Christian cop out that God is 'unknowable'

If discussing God in terms of theism/Christianity does not suffice for the purposes of this forum/discussion, or you're confused as to what this term means, then have a look at the forum charter. I can't really help after that. Maybe someone else can.

You could continually redefine the word God / Christianity to mean whatever you want the word to mean, and then decide there is evidence for that redefinition or not. Its not that uncommon, some people do that. To some people money is God, to others power is God, and to one recent poster on the spirituality, forum water is God. You can redefine every word in any sentence and claim each word means what you want it to mean. Any meaningful communication, in any language, in then becomes impossible.

If any other atheists out there have suggestions as to what would be evidence for theism/Christianity, and why they would consider it evidence, I would be interested to hear them.

silverharp · 12-03-2015 01:03PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

That's the problem, what proof would that be though.

e.g. what proof [or evidence] could you ask God for, to prove he wasn't a very advanced alien spirit or suchlike, pretending to be God ? and why would it be evidence.

Can anyone think of any examples ?

Well one, a very credible account of why the deity had such an odd relationship with the planet. Secondly what's the plan for the future. The god of course would need to show itself in a very obvious way and allow any amount of testing that the scientific community etc might deem useful
Based on that one could take a view that the deity is real, one could still decide to oppose the deity if one considered its nature , evil cruel based on the actual course of history for instance do still free will

Cen taurus · 12-03-2015 01:12PM

silverharp wrote: »

Well one, a very credible account of why the deity had such an odd relationship with the planet.

Can you give an exampe of such an account and why it would be suffiecent evidence for you that God exists ?

silverharp wrote: »

Secondly what's the plan for the future. The god of course would need to show itself in a very obvious way and allow any amount of testing that the scientific community etc might deem useful

That brings it back to the problem of if God did, exactly what scientifc tests would prove it was actually God and not some alien being / spirit. Radiation readings, energy readings ? Is there any examples you can propose and why they would be proof ?

silverharp wrote: »

Based on that one could take a view that the deity is real, one could still decide to oppose the deity

Sure, according to scripture, that's what Satan and third of what were angels, and are now demons, did.

marienbad · 12-03-2015 01:13PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Can you give an exampe of such an account and why it would be suffiecent evidence for you that God exists ?

That brings it back to the problem of if God did, exactly what scientifc tests would prove it was actually God. Radiation readings, energy readings ? Is there any examples you can propose and why they would be proof ?

Sure, according to scripture, that's what Satan and third of what were angels, and are now demons, did.

Is there any examples you can propose and why they would be proof ?

TheLurker · 12-03-2015 01:14PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

If discussing God in terms of theism/Christianity does not suffice for the purposes of this forum/discussion, or you're confused as to what this term means, then have a look at the forum charter. I can't really help after that. Maybe someone else can.

You asked how would we know we were talking to 'God' and not something else. Well to start you would have to define 'God' first so the definition provides enough clarify that it would be theoretically possible to do that. Christianity has not done that, nor do they seem all that interested in doing that. They seem to like a fuzzy ill-defined concept of God.

As such I couldn't say I was talking to the Christian God as opposed to anything else with sufficient supernatural powers.

Cen taurus wrote: »

You can redefine every word in any sentence and claim each word means what you want it to mean.

I'm not asking you to redefine it. I'm asking you to define it in the first place, define 'God' in sufficient terms so that the question 'are you experiencing God' becomes meaningful.

You can use any definition you like so long as it is sufficiently detailed enough to be useful.

Otherwise the question 'how would you know it was God' becomes pointless.

Cen taurus · 12-03-2015 01:15PM

marienbad wrote: »

Is there any examples you can propose and why they would be proof ?

I don't know what would satisfy sceptics, and I can't think of anything that would, that's why I'm asking them, and why it would. It may be different for each one, I don't know.

What would satisfy you as evidence, have you any exampes, and why would you consider it evidence ?

marienbad · 12-03-2015 01:17PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

I don't know what would satisfy skeptics, and I can't think of anything that would, that's why I'm asking them, and why it would. It may be difference for each one, I don't know.

so what evidence satisifies you ? and why ?

TheLurker · 12-03-2015 01:17PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

I don't know what would satisfy skeptics, and I can't think of anything that would, that's why I'm asking them, and why it would. It may be difference for each one, I don't know.

You say that as if not being satisfied a claim is true is a bad thing.

Cen taurus · 12-03-2015 01:20PM

marienbad wrote: »

so what evidence satisifies you ? and why ?

I have a belief and personal experience, I don't have evidence for anyone else.

What would satisfy you as evidence, have you any exampes, and why would you consider it evidence ?

Cen taurus · 12-03-2015 01:23PM

TheLurker wrote: »

You say that as if not being satisfied a claim is true is a bad thing.

I don't know why you're overlaying that emotion. Some people believe there is a God, some people don't. Some people believe there is alien life out there, some people don't.

robinph · 12-03-2015 01:29PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

I have a belief and personal experience, I don't have evidence for anyone else.

What would satisfy you as evidence, have you any exampes, and why would you consider it evidence ?

It is for you, the person making the claims, to come up with evidence. Not for anyone else to give you those answers. If you don't have any evidence then why do you expect an atheist to come up with evidence for your god.

galljga1 · 12-03-2015 01:36PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

If discussing God in terms of theism/Christianity does not suffice for the purposes of this forum/discussion, or you're confused as to what this term means, then have a look at the forum charter. I can't really help after that. Maybe someone else can.

You could continually redefine the word God / Christianity to mean whatever you want the word to mean, and then decide there is evidence for that redefinition or not. Its not that uncommon, some people do that. To some people money is God, to others power is God, and to one recent poster on the spirituality, forum water is God. You can redefine every word in any sentence and claim each word means what you want it to mean. Any meaningful communication, in any language, in then becomes impossible.

If any other atheists out there have suggestions as to what would be evidence for theism/Christianity, and why they would consider it evidence, I would be interested to hear them.

My understanding is that
Theism is belief in the existence of one or more deities and requires no evidence of the existence of said deities.
Atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of any deity.
In Christianity God is omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent so he can pretty much do anything

It is pretty hard do define what evidence you would need to produce to prove the existence of God. Theists believe, they do not need evidence. Strong possibility that some Atheists would not believe regardless what evidence was provided. You believe or you do not. Some may not want to believe. Don't shoot me for this, it is my opinion and a generalisation and I know it does not apply to everyone.

Personally, creation and time travel, if God was to bring us through creation (big bang or otherwise) of this world to modern day in a snapshot journey through time, that might do it for me. It would also sort out the 8000 vs 6000 vs 14 billion years old argument. He might also be able to explain where he came from, what was there before creation/big bang and into what exactly is the universe expanding if there is nothing out there.

I don't ask for much.

Cen taurus · 12-03-2015 01:36PM

robinph wrote: »

It is for you, the person making the claims, to come up with evidence. Not for anyone else to give you those answers. If you don't have any evidence then why do you expect an atheist to come up with evidence for your god.

What claim am I making exactly ? It's a belief, not a claim.

I also believe alien life ( life that does not originate from Earth ) exists out there somewhere as well, despite there being no evidence to date for any alien life. I don't claim that there is alien life.

TheLurker · 12-03-2015 01:44PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

I don't know why you're overlaying that emotion. Some people believe there is a God, some people don't. Some people believe there is alien life out there, some people don't.

I was wondering if you are going to push the "atheists are unreasonably skeptical towards religion" narrative.

silverharp · 12-03-2015 01:47PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Can you give an exampe of such an account and why it would be suffiecent evidence for you that God exists ?

One would revolve around a universal god behaving in such a tribal way thus ignoring the vast number of people who lived over the last 200000 years or so. Maybe the God could release "video" footage going back to the start of the big bang up to the present for examination by scientists, historians etc. with a full explanation and chance to question the deity on its motives in the past , present and for the future. It will either stack up or t wont

Cen taurus wrote: »

That brings it back to the problem of if God did, exactly what scientifc tests would prove it was actually God and not some alien being / spirit. Radiation readings, energy readings ? Is there any examples you can propose and why they would be proof ?

see above for instance , at some point of course inter dimensional aliens who can exist outside of physical space could fool us I guess but why would they? we would not be physically able to resist in any event so whatever they wanted they could take. At least one could make a rational decision with an element of faith based on evidence

Cen taurus · 12-03-2015 01:51PM

galljga1 wrote: »

Theists believe, they do not need evidence.

I'm not sure about that one, theists like most atheists are different. What one person considers evidence, another may not.

galljga1 wrote: »

Strong possibility that some Atheists would not believe regardless what evidence was provided. You believe or you do not. Some may not want to believe. Don't shoot me for this, it is my opinion and a generalisation and I know it does not apply to everyone.

I wouldn't shoot anyone for their opinion, esecially one that is not based on any false argument, false premise or a fallacy. I presume that some atheists ask for evidence because they would accept evidence, and I'm wondering what evidence they would accept, and why they would consider it as evidence. I would imagine there will be atheists who will accept evidence that other atheists would not.

galljga1 wrote: »

Personally, creation and time travel, if God was to bring us through creation (big bang or otherwise) of this world to modern day in a snapshot journey through time, that might do it for me. It would also sort out the 8000 vs 6000 vs 14 billion years old argument. He might also be able to explain where he came from, what was there before creation/big bang and into what exactly is the universe expanding if there is nothing out there. I don't ask for much.

It would certainly be an intresting journey and insight that's for sure

, and yet other atheists will declare that your journey was not evidence at all, you are wrong, and you must have been hallucinating, or it could have been an advanced alien pretending to be God.

Cen taurus · 12-03-2015 01:53PM

TheLurker wrote: »

I was wondering if you are going to push the "atheists are unreasonably skeptical towards religion" narrative.

I don't pigeon hole all atheists or theists as the same, with the same thoughts and opinions, do you ?

galljga1 · 12-03-2015 01:54PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

I'm not sure about that one, theists like most atheists are different. What one person considers evidence, another may not.

I wouldn't shoot anyone for their opinion, esecially one that is not based on any false argument, false premise or a fallacy. I presume that some atheists ask for evidence because they would accept evidence, and I'm wondering what evidence they would accept, and why they would consider it as evidence. I would imagine there will be atheists who will accept evidence that other atheists would not.

It would certainly be an intresting journey and insight that's for sure , and yet other atheists will declare that your journey was not evidence at all, you are wrong, and you must have been hallucinating, or it could have been an advanced alien pretending to be God.

I like mushrooms.

Cen taurus · 12-03-2015 01:55PM

galljga1 wrote: »

I like mushrooms.

That's exactly what they would say to you if you did try to cite it as evidence, even though you yourself had accepted it as evidence.

robinph · 12-03-2015 02:02PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

What claim am I making exactly ? It's a belief, not a claim.

I also believe alien life ( life that does not originate from Earth ) exists out there somewhere as well, despite there being no evidence to date for any alien life. I don't claim that there is alien life.

Evidence for your claim, evidence for your reason to hold that belief. Really doesn't matter, it's still down to you to produce the evidence.

Then other people get to decide if it is valid or not based on the quality of what you provide.

TheLurker · 12-03-2015 02:08PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

I don't pigeon hole all atheists or theists as the same, with the same thoughts and opinions, do you ?

Depends on the hole. All theists share similarities when it comes to belief and standards of belief. That is a given since theist is a classification.

If theism was actually supported by reason and evidence it wouldn't be theism, it would be science. It is the unsupported nature of theism that is its defining characteristic.

Cen taurus · 12-03-2015 02:11PM

robinph wrote: »

Evidence for your claim, evidence for your reason to hold that belief. Really doesn't matter, it's still down to you to produce the evidence.

Then other people get to decide if it is valid or not based on the quality of what you provide.

If I had evidence for you it wouldn't be a belief it would be a claim.
For example if I had actual evidence for alien life (i.e. evidence for life that did not originate on earth) then it would no longer be a belief, it would be a claim. No such evidence has been found to date, but the belief and the search continues.

robinph · 12-03-2015 02:22PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

If I had evidence for you it wouldn't be a belief it would be a claim.
For example if I had actual evidence for alien life (i.e. evidence for life that did not originate on earth) then it would no longer be a belief, it would be a claim. No such evidence has been found to date, but the belief and the search continues.

So why do you believe then, if by your own admission there is no evidence for your god?

Cen taurus · 12-03-2015 02:23PM

TheLurker wrote: »

Depends on the hole. All theists share similarities when it comes to belief and standards of belief. That is a given since theist is a classification.

If theism was actually supported by reason and evidence it wouldn't be theism, it would be science. It is the unsupported nature of theism that is its defining characteristic.

That takes an understanding of what Science is and what it isn't. It's the how, but it doesn't attempt to, or is it able to answer the why. Science can tell you how to make chemical weapons to fertilizer, it won't tell you if you should use them for good or bad.
The realm of Science has its own limits, and does not cover many things in life, from art to love to morality to justice, to spirituality, nor does it attempt to. Some people believe their partner loves them, some people don't, some people believe love exists, some people don't, some people believe monet is better than van gough, some people don't. Some people believe its ok to kill other people, some people don't. Science is a useful tool, but won't ever answer all the questions.

Cen taurus · 12-03-2015 02:28PM

robinph wrote: »

So why do you believe then, if by your own admission there is no evidence for your god?

As I explained earlier on the thread one of the main reasons would be I find it too hard to believe the odds of human life ever existing, never mind life on earth, never mind the correct the planetary alignments for life here, never mind all the billions of seemingly random events that had to act in exactly the right order and magnitude for the universe to exist at all, etc. etc. That's my belief, opinions may vary.

robinph · 12-03-2015 02:30PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

As I explained earlier on the thread one of the reasons would be I find it too hard to believe the odds of human life ever existing, never mind life on earth, never mind the correct the planetary alignments for life here, never mind all the billions of seemingly random events that had to act in exactly the right order and magnitude for the universe to exist at all, etc. etc. That's my belief, opinions may vary.

And what are your reasons for believing that there may be alien life out there?

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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