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Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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Comments

  • #602
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    maccored wrote: »
    Thats a bit strange - how do you know 'the document is very vague on details' if you havent 'time to study the PDF'?
    I searched for details on the HSE, consultants and doctors. There was no relevant information on any of those. Plus a cursory scan reveals lots of headlines but no explanation of same.


  • #603
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    maccored wrote: »
    Thats a bit strange - how do you know 'the document is very vague on details' if you havent 'time to study the PDF'?

    From the very first post the quality of research is indeed questionable.


  • #604
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    From the very first post the quality of research is indeed questionable.
    Oddly enough, in spite of direct contact with the Army Council Sinn Fein HQ, it seems that the premise of the first post is true.

    We are still waiting for any Shinner to explain why fewer doctors and consultants will make for a better health system.


  • #605
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    From the very first post the quality of research is indeed questionable.

    Indeed, I'm sure you can answer my question.

    The Shinner health doc aims to create an NHS, something requiring vast up front cost, with just a few hundred million (of dubious costing) over existing funding..... Do you think it will work?

    Do you think SF can deliver an NHS while spending less than what the UK spends? (as % of GDP).


  • #606
    NewCorkLad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 962 ✭✭✭NewCorkLad


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    Indeed, I'm sure you can answer my question.

    The Shinner health doc aims to create an NHS, something requiring vast up front cost, with just a few hundred million (of dubious costing) over existing funding..... Do you think it will work?

    Do you think SF can deliver an NHS while spending less than what the UK spends? (as % of GDP).

    Aswell as taking into account that they will only be spending 300million on disbanding IW and funding our water sysem in the future. :rolleyes:


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  • #607
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    direct contact with the Army Council Sinn Fein HQ, it seems that the premise of the first post is true.

    I see you have changed your attitude to posting on topic and not deflecting. Admirable!
    Still holding to your contention that you didn't start this thread to have a chip on the shoulder, irrational rant? :rolleyes:
    I'll leave you to your transparent shambles of a thread.


  • #608
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I see you have changed your attitude to posting on topic and not deflecting. Admirable!
    Still holding to your contention that you didn't start this thread to have a chip on the should irrational rant? :rolleyes:
    I'll leave you to your transparent shambles of a thread.
    Ridicule. CHECK!

    Attack. CHECK!

    Divert. CHECK!

    Ladies and gentleman, Happyman has the full house! :D

    Now, would anyone else like to explain how Sinn Fein plans to have a better health system with fewer doctors and consultants?


  • #609
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,788 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    I searched for details on the HSE, consultants and doctors. There was no relevant information on any of those. Plus a cursory scan reveals lots of headlines but no explanation of same.

    basically you contradicted yourself. well done. all the waffling on after the fact in the world wont change that


  • #610
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,788 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Now, would anyone else like to explain how Sinn Fein plans to have a better health system with fewer doctors and consultants?

    as already mentioned, why not contact them and ask? Its certainly much more complex than the simplified question you've posted.


  • #611
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #612
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    maccored wrote: »
    as already mentioned, why not contact them and ask? Its certainly much more complex than the simplified question you've posted.
    Because it's not my job to do Sinn Fein's PR for them. This is a place where we can debate these issues. There is no shortage of Sinn Fein supporters posting here, and you'd think one of them could make a coherent argument as to how Sinn Fein proposes a better health system with fewer doctors and consultants to go around.

    Note, I am taking it for granted that doctors will be thinner on the ground in Ireland if we cut their pay by over 30%, especially seeing as a third of them have to be hired in from abroad as it is.


  • #613
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    maccored wrote: »
    basically you contradicted yourself. well done. all the waffling on after the fact in the world wont change that
    Ridicule. Attack. Divert.


  • #614
    LordNorbury
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭LordNorbury


    SF are playing a really silly game throwing out what appear to be blind and uncosted commitments to do away with water charges and the property tax.

    Having been serially lied to at the last election by FG and Labour, I can't see people taking these very vague commitments at face valve. Even if they were properly costed and stacked up in the logical sense, people would still doubt their veracity. The day is thankfully gone when you can make a few silly and loose commitments about "red line issues", or "vote for me, my party leader says I'll keep our hospital" and get elected to office on that basis.


  • #615
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I'll leave this here:
    You posted this
    RecordStraight wrote:
    direct contact with the Army Council Sinn Fein HQ, it seems that the premise of the first post is true.
    while over on the Rules Discussion thread whinging about exactly that kind of posting by others and nobody has called you out on it. Looking at Permabear here in particular. Also whinging on the Rules Discussion thread and posting this kind of stuff:
    Permabear wrote:
    This post has been deleted.
    Carry on with your ridiculous and transparent thread. I'm definitely out.


  • #616
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Carry on with your ridiculous and transparent thread. I'm definitely out.
    ...he said for the fourth? Fifth time? :D

    Anyway, as I was saying: how does Sinn Fein propose a better health system with fewer doctors and consultants to go around?

    Note, I am taking it for granted that doctors will be thinner on the ground in Ireland if we cut their pay by over 30%, especially seeing as a third of them have to be hired in from abroad as it is.


  • #617
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    maccored wrote: »
    Thats a bit strange - how do you know 'the document is very vague on details' if you havent 'time to study the PDF'?

    I looked at it, it makes no sense . Yet you seem to ignore evidence and factual posts because you're incapable of debate and supporting the position.


  • #618
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Ridicule. CHECK!

    Attack. CHECK!

    Divert. CHECK!

    Ladies and gentleman, Happyman has the full house! :D
    Which is in itself all of the above you claim to be opposed to.
    Self-awarenessectomy recently?


  • #619
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Look at the first reason they are planning on leaving...'working conditions', stated all the way through this thread as the main problem for doctors leaving.
    Also the following should be considered;
    Leaving Ireland to do a fellowship is entirely standard for doctors in training. Hence so many of them plan to return.
    Doesn't suit the agenda here though does it?


  • #620
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Which is in itself all of the above you claim to be opposed to.
    Self-awarenessectomy recently?
    Ridicule. Attack. Divert.

    Anyway: back on topic.

    How does Sinn Fein propose a better health system with fewer doctors and consultants to go around?

    Note, I am taking it for granted that doctors will be thinner on the ground in Ireland if we cut their pay by over 30%, especially seeing as a third of them have to be hired in from abroad as it is.


  • #621
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Ridicule. Attack. Divert.
    Ridicule. Attack. Divert.
    Straight back at you.
    Look, I know you think your little meme is all clever and stuff, but you're doing exactly the same thing yourself you're insisting to be pointing out in others. It just comes across as silly.


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  • #622
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Leaving Ireland to do a fellowship is entirely standard for doctors in training. Hence so many of them plan to return.
    Doesn't suit the agenda here though does it?
    You are quite right. But we hire a third of our doctors from abroad. They aren't coming here for the weather - they are here for the money, and we compete for them on a global market.

    Even if NO extra Irish doctors leave when their pay is slashed (although the evidence suggests they are very willing and capable of leaving), we still have the problem of losing the foreign doctors and not being able to hire new competent ones when we pay less than market rates.

    So the question remains - how do we maintain current (frankly, not great) standards in the health service when there even fewer doctors and consultants to go around?


  • #623
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    we still have the problem of losing the foreign doctors and not being able to hire new competent ones when we pay less than market rates.
    What is the current average global salary then for a qualified doctor? Is it above or below the offered Irish salary do you think?
    (no, don't veer off into "English speaking countries" or somesuch please, it's a global or at least EU wide market)


  • #624
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,788 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    I looked at it, it makes no sense . Yet you seem to ignore evidence and factual posts because you're incapable of debate and supporting the position.

    more insults - is that all the anti shinner element have? weak insults?


  • #625
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Mod: Alright, alright! Calm down now!


  • #626
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    What is the current average global salary then for a qualified doctor? Is it above or below the offered Irish salary do you think?
    (no, don't veer off into "English speaking countries" or somesuch please, it's a global or at least EU wide market)
    Feel free to look that up if you think it is relevant.

    I'm starting from the assumption that the Irish government currently pays as little as they can get away with to attract doctors from abroad. Cutting that figure by 30% PLUS increased taxes on earnings over a 100k means that they will fall well below that minimal figure. I don't think this is a particularly outrageous assumption.

    Conversely, if you feel Ireland is paying 30-40% more than it needs to to hire foreign doctors, perhaps you could support that with some sort of evidence.


  • #627
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Feel free to look that up if you think it is relevant.
    You think whether Ireland does and will continue to pay above the global or EU market rates has no possible connection with whether Ireland can hire more doctors from abroad?
    I guess we can take that as an admission we already and will continue to pay far far about the "market rate".


  • #628
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    What is the current average global salary then for a qualified doctor? Is it above or below the offered Irish salary do you think?
    (no, don't veer off into "English speaking countries" or somesuch please, it's a global or at least EU wide market)

    Seriously, there is a monumental difference between "global" and "at least EU wide market".

    I suspect you want first world level salaries averaged out. However, the salary figure is meaningless without looking at things like cost of living, taxation, cost of accommodation and general attractiveness of the location. All due respect to people who live in Portlaoise but there can't be many people for whom it is top of the list of places to move to.

    Global average will include pretty much every country. Given the monumental differences in other things like taxation, accommodation and lifestyle, it is an extremely poor comparator. This was outlined yesterday or the day before in the context of Qatar, with low nominal salaries but net post deduction income being higher along with improved worklife balances for example. As a result, the figure you are looking for is meaningless and tends to be locality specific. I would say, for example, that I might be perfectly happy to live on X money in location A in Ireland but would be even happier to live on 0.75X in location B somewhere else in Ireland if A is Dublin, or somewhere in a different country where the outgoings are reduced and, for example, the sun is shining.

    In the context of any political party proposing salary caps there is an issue in that something like this really shouldn't be tried without doing something to improve the pipeline provision of highly qualified medical specialists. Increasing the number of medicine places at third level, for example. There is a market element of salaries and the only way you can really bring them down without any damage to your service supply is increase the number of service suppliers. More qualified doctors in other words.

    The points for medicine are high at the moment and I don't know what the drop out rate is, plus there are transfers from science as well. Possibly we could increase the number of people going through medicine studies without massively reducing the overall quality of the doctors and surgeons coming out of the other end.

    However, that's going to cost money too and medicine is not one of the cheaper courses to run.


  • #629
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You think whether Ireland does and will continue to pay above the global or EU market rates has no possible connection with whether Ireland can hire more doctors from abroad?
    I guess we can take that as an admission we already and will continue to pay far far about the "market rate".
    What? :confused: Where is your evidence?

    Read Calina's post and learn something.


  • #630
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    What? :confused: Where is your evidence?

    Read Calina's post and learn something.
    Maybe you should learn not to bring up the global market rate for doctor salaries then, if you really have no context or evidence to add yourself.
    Which is exactly what you did.


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  • #631
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Maybe you should learn not to bring up the global market rate for doctor salaries then, if you really have no context to add yourself.
    Which is exactly what you did.
    Where is your evidence? Do you think doctors are paid the same all over the world? :confused:

    Please read Calina's post.

    I can't believe someone is seriously arguing that cutting pay by 30-40% won't make it harder to hire people - in ANY freaking job! :)


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