Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

Nick Park wrote: »

No, that isn't true. But your resort to personal abuse is duly noted.

orubiru wrote: »

You haven't expressed an opinion but you DO have an opinion, right?

You either have a very specific belief about Pauls encounter with Jesus or you do not. You are trying to pretend "well, I am not making any claims" by just saying nothing at all.

You are being disingenuous.

So we are just back at the same old "well you can't prove that it DIDN'T happen" argument except you are attempting to conceal your motives.

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Then this means that the bible is completely and utterly 100% useless as a tool to try and convince me. The bible and any other documents. If I attempt to give weight to christian documents, then, in the interest of remaining fair and consistent, I have to give equal weight to documents from other religions, which would lead to contradictory and mutually exclusive religions and claims both being equally true (and we can't have that).

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Other than the bible, what do christians have?

marienbad wrote: »

Not at all , one can't beat a robust debate but you don't do that , no one respects the hurler on the ditch .

marienbad wrote: »

Your logistical argument just doesn't hold water. people walked up to 30 km per day on an outstanding road network so a journey from Rome to present day Istanbul (Roughly 2000 km with a short sea voyage ) took less than 90 days . By horse or cart it was obviously much faster . There was even a Post Office service- both public and private . Here are the links if you care to verify.

So can we dispense with the logistical nightmare element of the debate please .

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Journals/TAPA/82/Speed_under_Sail_of_Ancient_Ships*.html


''Let us now compare Pliny's record runs with other voyages of which we have knowledge. Here are seven, each one of which we are specifically told was made under favorable wind conditions.

p140 Reference Voyage Nautical Miles Length of Voyage Overall Speed Philostr. Vita Ap. 7.10 Corinth-Puteoli 670 4½ days15 6.2 knots Thuc. 2.97 Abdera-Mouth of Danube 50016 4 5 Acts 28:13 Rhegium-Puteoli 175 1½ 5 Scylax, Periplus 111 Carthage-Gibraltar 820 7 4.9 Sulp. Severus, Dial. 1.3 and 1.6 Syrtes-Alexandria 70017 6½ 4.5 Synesius, Epist. 51 Phycus-Alexandria 450 4½17a 4.3 Philostr. V. A. 8.15 Puteoli-Tauromenium 205 2½ 3.4 ''

Road Transportation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_roads




Outside the cities, Romans were avid riders and rode on or drove quite a number of vehicle types, some of which are mentioned here. Carts driven by oxen were used. Horse-drawn carts could travel up to 40 to 50 kilometres (25 to 31 mi) per day,/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc]21[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc pedestrians 20 to 25 kilometres (12 to 16 mi). For purposes of description, Roman vehicles can be divided into the car, the coach, and the cart. Cars were used to transport one or two individuals, coaches were used to transport parties, and carts to transport cargo.
Of the cars, the most popular was the carrus ("car"), a standard chariot form descending to the Romans from a greater antiquity. The top was open, the front closed. One survives in the Vatican. It carried a driver and a passenger. A carrus of two horses was a biga; of three horses, a triga; and of four horses a quadriga. The tyres were of iron. When not in use, its wheels were removed for easier storage.
A more luxurious version, the carpentum, transported women and officials. It had an arched overhead covering of cloth and was drawn by mules. A lighter version, the cisium, equivalent to a gig, was open above and in front and had a seat. Drawn by one or two mules or horses, it was used for cab work, the cab drivers being called cisiani. The builder was a cisarius.
Of the coaches, the mainstay was the raeda or reda, which had four wheels. The high sides formed a sort of box in which seats were placed, with a notch on each side for entry. It carried several people with baggage up to the legal limit of 1000 Roman Libra (pounds), modern equivalent 327 kg. It was drawn by teams of oxen, horses or mules. A cloth top could be put on for weather, in which case it resembled a covered wagon.
The raeda was probably the main vehicle for travel on the roads. Raedae meritoriae were hired coaches. The fiscalis raeda was a government coach. The driver and the builder were both referred to as a raedarius.
Of the carts, the main one was the plaustrum or plostrum. This was simply a platform of boards attached to wheels and a cross-tree. The wheels, or tympana, were solid and were several centimetres (inches) thick. The sides could be built up with boards or rails. A large wicker basket was sometimes placed on it. A two-wheel version existed along with the normal four-wheel type called the plaustrum maius.
The military used a standard wagon. Their transportation service was the cursus clabularis, after the standard wagon, called a carrus clabularius, clabularis, clavularis, or clabulare. It transported the impedimenta, or baggage of a military column.

Carts driven by oxen were used. Horse-drawn carts could travel up to 40 to 50 kilometres (25 to 31 mi) per day,/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc]21[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc pedestrians 20 to 25 kilometres (12 to 16 mi). For purposes of description, Roman vehicles can be divided into the car, the coach, and the cart. Cars were used to transport one or two individuals, coaches were used to transport parties, and carts to transport cargo.
Of the cars, the most popular was the carrus ("car"), a standard chariot form descending to the Romans from a greater antiquity. The top was open, the front closed. One survives in the Vatican. It carried a driver and a passenger. A carrus of two horses was a biga; of three horses, a triga; and of four horses a quadriga. The tyres were of iron. When not in use, its wheels were removed for easier storage.
A more luxurious version, the carpentum, transported women and officials. It had an arched overhead covering of cloth and was drawn by mules. A lighter version, the cisium, equivalent to a gig, was open above and in front and had a seat. Drawn by one or two mules or horses, it was used for cab work, the cab drivers being called cisiani. The builder was a cisarius.
Of the coaches, the mainstay was the raeda or reda, which had four wheels. The high sides formed a sort of box in which seats were placed, with a notch on each side for entry. It carried several people with baggage up to the legal limit of 1000 Roman Libra (pounds), modern equivalent 327 kg. It was drawn by teams of oxen, horses or mules. A cloth top could be put on for weather, in which case it resembled a covered wagon.
The raeda was probably the main vehicle for travel on the roads. Raedae meritoriae were hired coaches. The fiscalis raeda was a government coach. The driver and the builder were both referred to as a raedarius.
Of the carts, the main one was the plaustrum or plostrum. This was simply a platform of boards attached to wheels and a cross-tree. The wheels, or tympana, were solid and were several centimetres (inches) thick. The sides could be built up with boards or rails. A large wicker basket was sometimes placed on it. A two-wheel version existed along with the normal four-wheel type called the plaustrum maius.
The military used a standard wagon. Their transportation service was the cursus clabularis, after the standard wagon, called a carrus clabularius, clabularis, clavularis, or clabulare. It transported the impedimenta, or baggage of a military column.''

hinault wrote: »

Fascinating. And bogus.

When did the Roman Empire adopt Christianity? A.D. 300?

You ever hear about the persecution of the early Church by the Roman Empire?

You ever hear of the Emperor Nero? And what he did to Christians and those who were found to be helping Christians between AD 40 and AD 68?
Or Emperor Domitian and his treatment of Christians AD to AD 96?

You think Christians were hitching lifts on these roads packed with Roman transport vehicles?

You might want to read up on the way Christians were treated by the Romans before posting.

marienbad wrote: »

That is just a nonsensical reply hinault , if travel was so dangerous how did Christians ever get out of the holy land ?

marienbad wrote: »

Here is a map of the journeys of Paul , funny how he seemed to manage it.

hinault wrote: »

With great difficulty. Rome sought to oppress Christianity throughout the Empire.
Their regional govenors would have been under strict orders to enforce worship of Roman deities.

The Jews would have viewed Christian proselytising as heretical.

You think that Christians had freedom of association, freedom of movement?



So you accept that what the bible says about Paul's travels is true? Interesting. Are you deliberately selecting the parts of the bible that you agree with your arguments here too?

You should read Paul's letters. Those letters tell of how Paul at various stages was persecuted.
You know he was jailed by Govenor Felix in Caesarea for 2 years.

marienbad wrote: »

Whether I think Paul is true or not is irrelevant ,your own documents show travel was definitely possible for Christians ,persecuted or not .

You can't have it both ways - either travel for Christians was impossible and all those journeys by the Apostles and Paul are false .

Or

Those journeys were real and so the transportation of manuscripts was also possible .

So which is it ?