Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

Frank Bullitt · 10-03-2015 06:28AM

hinault wrote: »

Incorrect.

I asked you to park the claim about divinity and to asked do you accept that Jesus Christ physically existed? Do you?

There are thousands of texts dated from the 1st century which form no part of the Bible, which attest to the existence of Jesus Christ.

The Babylonian Talmud for example.
You dispute the evidence of Tacitus, Josephus? Tallus? None of these men consider Jesus to be divine but each attested to Jesus existence.

You disagree with their assertion?

Talmud references to Jesus are written hundreds of years after the apparent events. The "evidence" from Tacitus, Joesphus and Tallus also aren't primary sources for Jesus. Tacitus's writing about it did not appear until the 4th century or so. Josephus's writings are a little suspect in that he references Jesus once, thats all. And Thallus passage you refer to isn't what I would call clear, and is also passed down second hand.

Again, there is absolutely no physical or archaeological evidence for the existence of Jesus, just narrative. And the sources for these writings are of a christian base, so again, one would call this into question.

RikuoAmero · 10-03-2015 09:22AM

Hinault, I'm back, but given what you said in reply to Gintonius, I don't expect you to provide strong evidence for Jesus the God man.
Unless you can come up with something better, why should I believe your claims?

galljga1 · 10-03-2015 09:37AM

Gintonious wrote: »

Talmud references to Jesus are written hundreds of years after the apparent events. The "evidence" from Tacitus, Joesphus and Tallus also aren't primary sources for Jesus. Tacitus's writing about it did not appear until the 4th century or so. Josephus's writings are a little suspect in that he references Jesus once, thats all. And Thallus passage you refer to isn't what I would call clear, and is also passed down second hand.

Again, there is absolutely no physical or archaeological evidence for the existence of Jesus, just narrative. And the sources for these writings are of a christian base, so again, one would call this into question.

But what about Brian?

TheLurker · 10-03-2015 09:52AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Alien life is life that does not originate from Earth. It is also called Extra-terrestrial life. Find one credible scientific link that evidence of alien life exists. Then we can give you this years Nobel prize, as the first discoverer of evidence for alien life.

"alien" life is simply a term of location. If you were on Mars we would be alien life. The question is does life exist in the universe and if it does does it exist on more than one planet. We answer the first question, and based on that evidence it is reasonable to suppose it exists some where else as well given how large the universe is.

Cen taurus wrote: »

I would suspect what’s needed far more here is a dictionary and a little read up on logical fallacies.

You seem to be quite happy to use logical fallacies when convenient, so I'm not sure you want to go down that road...

TheLurker · 10-03-2015 10:01AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Indeed, seeing as there is no evidence yet for alien life at all.

The evidence was explained (we are evidence for alien life), then I presume you realised the mistake you made and re-defined the question to ask for evidence that alien life physically exists on another planet, rather than simply evidence of alien life.

That my friend is a fallacy.

tommy2bad · 10-03-2015 10:59AM

hinault wrote: »

Josephus and Tacitus are only two' independent' texts among the thousands of texts that have been dated from the 1st century or thereabout recording Jesus life and teaching.

How do you account for the texts from diverse regional locations chose to record what Jesus did?
How do you account for the number of texts from diverse regional locations chose to record what Jesus did?

Fixed that for you, independent texts is an important distinction.

marienbad · 10-03-2015 11:03AM

hinault wrote: »

Were all 71 men born in Bethlehem?
Did they all live in Nazareth?
Did they all have a cousin called John the Baptist?

Were they all Jewish? Did they all attend a synagogue in Jerusalem?
Were they all questioned by Pontius Pilate? Were they all crucified?

Were all these 'facts' mentioned in Josephus or Tacitus ?

marienbad · 10-03-2015 11:08AM

hinault wrote: »

Josephus and Tacitus are only two texts among the thousands of texts that have been dated from the 1st century or thereabout recording Jesus life and teaching.

How do you account for the texts from diverse regional locations chose to record what Jesus did?
How do you account for the number of texts from diverse regional locations chose to record what Jesus did?

How many mentions are there excluding the bible and other sacred documents and that were contemporaneous ?

After all this is the guy that turned water into wine and was witnessed by a sizeable wedding party - someone must have mentioned it.

Cen taurus · 10-03-2015 11:13AM

marienbad wrote: »

You were disingenuous and you were called on it , and you throw in a little bit of ad hominem for good measure

You've made that false claim twice now, and each time you've been asked to show where I was, you failed to do so, and instead repeat your unproven slur. Deal with the posts, rather than attacking the poster.

indioblack · 10-03-2015 11:18AM

hinault wrote: »

Incorrect.

I asked you to park the claim about divinity and to asked do you accept that Jesus Christ physically existed? Do you?

There are thousands of texts dated from the 1st century which form no part of the Bible, which attest to the existence of Jesus Christ.

The Babylonian Talmud for example.
You dispute the evidence of Tacitus, Josephus? Tallus? None of these men consider Jesus to be divine but each attested to Jesus existence.

You disagree with their assertion?

It would be fundamentally life-changing for everyone if Jesus was proven to have existed.
That is the Jesus of the New Testament.
It would prove the existence of God, obviously.
Life-changing for everyone - as much for the believers as for the non-believers.
What need would there be for faith and belief?

galljga1 · 10-03-2015 11:18AM

Unfollowing this thread as it is full of false prophets.

silverharp · 10-03-2015 11:34AM

Just for clarity Josephus was born in 37 C.E. and Tacitus was born in 62 C.E. and Antiquities was written in 93 C.E. which is after the first gospels.
And the whole Jesus the early years is weird as well, a confused birth story timewise and brought up in the "city" of Nazareth which is not mentioned in the ot and at most if it did exist was a city of a few houses of one would imagine mostly relatives yet it had its own bustling synagogue and was able to inflame his relatives enough that they tried to kill him even though they should have known his birth story right?

Cen taurus · 10-03-2015 11:35AM

orubiru wrote: »

So basically, nobody can prove anything?

Or nobody can prove anything about theism and Christianity?

It seems like that's your point.

Notice the three straw men questions

Just looking for the posters replying to me to back up the claims they make, and without fallacy and false premises. Quite simple really.

Cen taurus · 10-03-2015 11:37AM

RikuoAmero wrote: »

A typical, average christian will claim they base their belief on the bible. That is a claim I make.

Any proof for your claim yet Rick ?

Cen taurus · 10-03-2015 11:38AM

RikuoAmero wrote: »

A typical, average christian will claim they base their belief on the bible. That is a claim I make.

Any proof for your claim yet Rick ?

Also as was asked earlier, but still no sign of, can you provide us with claim against theism or Christianity that you have managed to prove on this forum ?

RikuoAmero · 10-03-2015 11:38AM

silverharp wrote: »

Just for clarity Josephus was born in 37 C.E. and Tacitus was born in 62 C.E. and Antiquities was written in 93 C.E. which is after the first gospels.
And the whole Jesus the early years is weird as well, a confused birth story timewise and brought up in the "city" of Nazareth which is not mentioned in the ot and at most if it did exist was a city of a few houses of one would imagine mostly relatives yet it had its own bustling synagogue and was able to inflame his relatives enough that they tried to kill him even though they should have known his birth story right?

That's always struck me as funny, Jesus's early years, the fact they're not recorded at all (the only thing I can recall off hand being mentioned is him going to the temple and saying "I am in the house of my father" or words to that effect).
According to christianity, this guy is the most important guy in the entire history of the world, there never has been nor never will be a person as important as him...and yet somehow, only his last three years are worth writing about or talking about?

indioblack · 10-03-2015 11:41AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Any proof for your claim yet Rick ?

Does he need any?
It's obvious, surely.

Cen taurus · 10-03-2015 11:45AM

RikuoAmero wrote: »

As I'm waiting on the voluminus evidence in favour of your christian belief...

Lots of people believe that there is alien life out there as well, despite there being no evidence to date for any.

But on the subject of evidence, what evidence would you accept for Christianity, can you give an example, and explain to us exactly why it would be evidence.

Cen taurus · 10-03-2015 11:46AM

indioblack wrote: »

Does he need any?
It's obvious, surely.

Then there should be no problem providing it then . . . .

TheLurker · 10-03-2015 11:48AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Also as was asked earlier, but still no sign of, can you provide us with claim against theism or Christianity that you have managed to prove on this forum ?

What is the point when you just consistently ignore them?

TheLurker · 10-03-2015 11:49AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Lots of people believe that there is alien life out there as well, despite there being no evidence to date for any.

There being no evidence, and you ignoring the evidence, are not the same thing.

Cen taurus · 10-03-2015 11:49AM

RikuoAmero wrote: »

...and yet somehow, only his last three years are worth writing about or talking about?

False claim Rik, his birth was also written about, and at least one story from his youth.

Cen taurus · 10-03-2015 11:51AM

TheLurker wrote: »

There being no evidence, and you ignoring the evidence, are not the same thing.

What evidence for alien life ? Science hasn't even identified any yet, but that does not stop people believing there is more than likely alien life out there someone (including me)

Cen taurus · 10-03-2015 11:52AM

TheLurker wrote: »

What is the point when you just consistently ignore them?

I'll look at any claim you care to provide.
I'm still waiting for one not based on a false premise, or fallacy. Got any ?

orubiru · 10-03-2015 11:56AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

I'll look at any claim you care to provide.
I'm still waiting for one not based on a false premise, or fallacy. Got any ?

Let's say that there are none.

What's your point?

TheLurker · 10-03-2015 11:57AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

What evidence for alien life ?

As stated, we are evidence for alien life. "Alien" is just a product of location. We are evidence that life can and has evolved on a planet in this universe. That is evidence that life exists in this universe. Couple that with the size of the universe and the estimated frequency of other 'goldilocks' planets (based on observed occurrences of them), it is a reasonable conclusion that life has evolved on other planets.

You initially asked for evidence, and then switched up goal posts and asked for direct proof of observed occurrences. Which obviously are not the same thing. If I walk into a room and see furniture thrown around and blood everywhere that is EVIDENCE of a fight in the room, but not the same thing as seeing the actual fight.

Cen taurus wrote: »

Science hasn't even identified any yet

You didn't ask has science observed any alien life. You asked if there as any evidence that it exists. There is, us.

RikuoAmero · 10-03-2015 11:57AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

False claim Rik, his birth was also written about, and at least one story from his youth.

I did mention the going into the temple, didn't I? And of course I'm aware of the birth story. My point is, that for some strange reason, only the birth, one event from his youth and then the last three years of the most important person in all of history are considered worthy of being talked about. Strange that.

orubiru · 10-03-2015 11:57AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

False claim Rik, his birth was also written about, and at least one story from his youth.

Do you have links or references to support this?

indioblack · 10-03-2015 12:00PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Then there should be no problem providing it then . . . .

Provide what?
That Christians have authority for their Christianity from the Christian scriptures?

TheLurker · 10-03-2015 12:01PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

I'll look at any claim you care to provide.
I'm still waiting for one not based on a false premise, or fallacy. Got any ?

Yes. I've already presented them to you. Lets try again.

Humans are known to have hyperactive agency detection, particularly in times of stress or feelings of the world is out of control. What this means is that we are prone to making up agents in the world that we then believe are directing actions around us.

This is a psychological explanation for why religious belief exists that does not require the existence of deities or supernatural agents in nature to explain the phenomena.

So we have a strong competing theory for religious faith that works within current biological models and does not require the introduction of any supernatural agents.

Couple that with the absence of any verifiable evidence for the existence of said supernatural agents beyond claims made by believers (explained above), then the theory of the existence of deities ends up having no support and not explaining phenomena.

As such it is reasonable to reject it, until a time that future evidence is presented that lends it more support.

Now what part of that do you have trouble with?

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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