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Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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Comments

  • #1202
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    Cen taurus wrote: »
    But you claimed earlier you seen no reason ?
    Do you believe there is alien life out there in the universe for example ?

    Also what would be evidence for God's existence in your opinion, and why would it be evidence ?

    Explained clearly to you exactly how and why the hypothesis for alien life is supported.

    How is the hypothesis for Gods existence supported?


  • #1203
    Cen taurus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 476 ✭✭Cen taurus


    orubiru wrote: »
    Explained clearly to you exactly how and why the hypothesis for alien life is supported.

    No that's false, what you actually claimed was that there was evidence for alien life, and it was on earth.

    How is the hypothesis for Gods existence supported? [/QUOTE]

    How is the proposed explanation for God's existence supported ?

    I don't know you'll have to ask someone who is offering one.


  • #1204
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,037 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    Cen taurus wrote: »
    But you claimed earlier you seen no reason ?
    Do you believe there is alien life out there in the universe for example ?

    Also what would be evidence for God's existence in your opinion, and why would it be evidence ?

    Yes, the reason I am claiming is the lack of evidence, is that not clear from my posts?

    I don't give alien life much thought, mainly as it doesn't interest me, although I do have more interest now in the cosmos and the general size, scape and majesty of the known universe.

    Evidence to change my mind? Well since there is no evidence at all now, it would take rather a lot. Evidence for the claims of a virgin birth, dead men walking, miracles, water into wine, walking on water, healing the sick, cities and places mentioned in the bible, the burning bush, talking snakes.

    Evidence for the above would be a start.


  • #1205
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    Cen taurus wrote: »
    That's correct.

    Do you claim it's not true, or do you just lack belief that it is ?

    Haha. Nice try.

    Let's take Statement A. "Mankind is responsible for the fall and the corruption of the world, not God. You only have to look around you to know that. God saves."

    You don't claim that Statement A is True but you DO believe that Statement A is True. You even state this belief, as evidenced by your quoted posts. Uh huh, I see.

    I do not claim that Statement A is False. I do not claim that Statement A is True. You have made the claims but you have not provided enough evidence for me to decide either way. So, due to your lack of supporting evidence, I cannot believe your claim.

    My claim is that you have not provided enough evidence to support your claims and so I don't believe them.


  • #1206
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Cen taurus wrote: »
    So you had to go outside the thread to find a claim ? Intresting.

    Yep. It's called a strawman. I've no claim that God exists, I merely believe that God exists.

    Have you any other claims ?

    What relevance where you said it ? But it does show how disingenuous your argument is.

    I don't believe in God one way or the other , similarly with Finn McCool, The Grim Reaper, or a host of other mythical figures.

    And I will maintain that stance until I see evidence to show me otherwise .


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  • #1207
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    orubiru wrote: »
    Haha. Nice try.

    Let's take Statement A. "Mankind is responsible for the fall and the corruption of the world, not God. You only have to look around you to know that. God saves."

    You don't claim that Statement A is True but you DO believe that Statement A is True. You even state this belief, as evidenced by your quoted posts. Uh huh, I see.

    I do not claim that Statement A is False. I do not claim that Statement A is True. You have made the claims but you have not provided enough evidence for me to decide either way. So, due to your lack of supporting evidence, I cannot believe your claim.

    My claim is that you have not provided enough evidence to support your claims and so I don't believe them.

    I predict that he'll say that he's just saying his beliefs, that he's not making any claims whatsoever.
    When (not if) he does, I'll ask "Well, why do you mention them at all then? Why is it you think that we are interested in dissecting beliefs that the believer is not willing at all to defend?"
    This is only a little bit better than the first guy I "debated" here on this thread. I think it was Festus, if I'm remembering correctly, he spent a good while dodging the question as to which denomination he was.


  • #1208
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    Cen taurus wrote: »
    No that's false, what you actually claimed was that there was evidence for alien life, and it was on earth.

    Nope I claimed that the HYPOTHESIS for alien life is SUPPORTED by the FACT that there is life here on Earth.

    Haha. You honestly believe that I was holding that up as evidence for the existence of alien life?

    You are pretty good at twisting up peoples words, being elusive, avoiding the points and wilfully misunderstanding things that are explained to you many times over. I'll give you that.

    Good work.


  • #1209
    Cen taurus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 476 ✭✭Cen taurus


    Gintonious wrote: »
    Yes, the reason I am claiming is the lack of evidence, is that not clear from my posts?

    Not really no, as earlier you said it was because you had not seen any reason or evidence, then it was evidence, then reason, so I wondered which one, and if you were claiming you had seen no reaons at all ever, or you had not seen a reason convincing enough.

    I don't give alien life much thought, mainly as it doesn't interest me, although I do have more interest now in the cosmos and the general size, scape and majesty of the known universe.
    Gintonious wrote: »
    Evidence to change my mind? Well since there is no evidence at all now, it would take rather a lot. Evidence for the claims of a virgin birth, dead men walking, miracles, water into wine, walking on water, healing the sick, cities and places mentioned in the bible, the burning bush, talking snakes.

    Evidence for the above would be a start.

    Great, what would be evidence for any of the above in your opinon, and why would it be evidence for God ? Can you give some practical examples ?

    Also if any or all of the above were ever actually proved false, why would it prove God does not exist ?


  • #1210
    Cen taurus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 476 ✭✭Cen taurus


    orubiru wrote: »
    Nope I claimed that the HYPOTHESIS for alien life is SUPPORTED by the FACT that there is life here on Earth.

    Haha. You honestly believe that I was holding that up as evidence for the existence of alien life?

    So lets be clear, are you claiming there is any evidence yet for alien life, yes, or no ?

    orubiru wrote: »
    You are pretty good at twisting up peoples words, being elusive, avoiding the points and wilfully misunderstanding things that are explained to you many times over. I'll give you that.

    Good work.

    I see you've resorted back to the old ad hominem fallacy again.


  • #1211
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    Cen taurus wrote: »
    Also if any or all of the above were ever actually proved false, why would it prove God does not exist ?

    It wouldn't. Nobody can prove that God does not exist.

    This has been explained to you over and over.

    Nobody can prove that God does not exist but if there is no evidence for Gods existence then there is no logical reason to believe in God. Therefore many people are Atheists because they lack belief in God.


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  • #1212
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    Also if any or all of the above were ever actually proved false, why would it prove God does not exist ?

    It would prove the christian god, the god of the bible, to not exist. After that, if one still believes in a god, then it's an un-named, un-defined god who created the universe and (for that person at that moment in time) apparently never once interacted with the universe, at least not an interaction that was recorded.


  • #1213
    Cen taurus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 476 ✭✭Cen taurus


    orubiru wrote: »
    It wouldn't. Nobody can prove that God does not exist.

    Can you prove that claim ?

    This has been explained to you over and over.
    orubiru wrote: »
    Nobody can prove that God does not exist but if there is no evidence for Gods existence then there is no logical reason to believe in God. Therefore many people are Atheists because they lack belief in God.

    And yet without any evidence to date for alien life, many people believe there is alien life out there somewhere, so your logic is out the window.


  • #1214
    Cen taurus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 476 ✭✭Cen taurus


    RikuoAmero wrote: »
    It would prove the christian god, the god of the bible, to not exist. After that, if one still believes in a god, then it's an un-named, un-defined god who created the universe and (for that person at that moment in time) apparently never once interacted with the universe, at least not an interaction that was recorded.

    How ?


  • #1215
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Cen taurus wrote: »
    Can you prove that claim ?

    This has been explained to you over and over.

    Why would he/she want to ?


  • #1216
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    And yet without any evidence to date for alien life, many people believe there is alien life out there somewhere, so your logic is out the window.

    There is no physical evidence in support of the hypothesis of alien life, but there is statistical evidence in favour of it.


  • #1217
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    Cen taurus wrote: »
    How ?

    The god of the bible claims to not lie. If the various magical stories in the bible were ever proven false, then this would make your god out to be a liar. Since he claims to not be a liar, this proves the claim of a truth-telling god false. Ergo, a truth telling god does not exist.


  • #1218
    Cen taurus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 476 ✭✭Cen taurus


    marienbad wrote: »
    Why would he/she want to ?

    I don't know, you'll have to ask the person making a claim

    Should claims have proof ?


  • #1219
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,037 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    Not really no, as earlier you said it was because you had not seen any reason or evidence, then it was evidence, then reason, so I wondered which one, and if you were claiming you had seen no reaons at all ever, or you had not seen a reason convincing enough.

    Its both, there is no reason or evidence. Is that clear now?
    I don't give alien life much thought, mainly as it doesn't interest me, although I do have more interest now in the cosmos and the general size, scape and majesty of the known universe.

    Great, what would be evidence for any of the above in your opinon, and why would it be evidence for God ? Can you give some practical examples ?

    Also if any or all of the above were ever actually proved false, why would it prove God does not exist ?

    Evidence for them would be proof of their occurrence, like the proof of previous events that we can observe, such as ruins, fossils, archaeological discoveries etc. It would be evidence for God as they are mentioned in the bible, which is the word of god, no?

    So lack of proof of the above gives doubt for their authenticity, hence the lack of reason/evidence to believe in such a god.

    I also doubt that god will ever be comprehensively proven to not exist, people will believe in a god as long as they are afraid of death, as Freud put it.


  • #1220
    Cen taurus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 476 ✭✭Cen taurus


    RikuoAmero wrote: »
    There is no physical evidence in support of the hypothesis of alien life, but there is statistical evidence in favour of it.

    News to me, Science doesn't claim there is any evidence for alien life yet. You could be up for the noble prize.


  • #1221
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    Cen taurus wrote: »
    So lets be clear, are you claiming there is any evidence yet for alien life, yes, or no ?

    To be perfectly honest, I do not know if there is or is not evidence of Alien life. I suspect not or I would have read about it by now.

    So, I am going to go with NO there is no evidence for Alien life.

    However, since there is life on Earth and there are many stars and planets out there, I understand why the hypothesis is discussed and debated.

    The hypothesis is supported by facts but I do not believe it because it is just a hypothesis. I think it is a pretty interesting discussion though.

    The hypothesis for God... well let's be specific here. You believe in, and worship as your Lord, the Catholic God. I don't think we can ignore that fact.

    Would I be open to the idea of some being creating all things? Sure. It's an interesting hypothesis. Unsupported but interesting. I cannot say I believe it though. Not right now.

    The Catholic God? Well that is even more specific, isn't it? I mean, you guys can't even decide on the nature of your own God so what chance have you got with convincing someone like me that YOUR God exists?

    I just can't believe in it until you bring some evidence to the table.

    I am not saying that I am 100% sure that your God cannot possibly exist. I am just saying that I do not believe it based on the evidence provided.

    So, there you go.


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  • #1222
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    Cen taurus wrote: »
    News to me, Science doesn't claim there is any evidence for alien life yet. You could be up for the noble prize.

    Really? You haven't realized yet that the universe is a big place, with many galaxies, stars and planets? You haven't realized that in such a place, even something with only 1 in ten billion odds of occuring (random number I plucked out of the ether) can still happen quite regularly?
    Note that this is not me saying that there definitely IS alien life out there. Only that statistically, it's more likely that there is, than there is not.


  • #1223
    Cen taurus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 476 ✭✭Cen taurus


    RikuoAmero wrote: »
    The god of the bible claims to not lie. If the various magical stories in the bible were ever proven false, then this would make your god out to be a liar.

    Non sequitur fallacy. Can you prove your claim that God must have been telling the lies and not the people that wrote it ?
    RikuoAmero wrote: »
    Since he claims to not be a liar [FALSE - the bible claims it] , this proves the claim of a truth-telling god false. [How ?] Ergo, a truth telling god does not exist. [Non sequitur fallacy]


  • #1224
    Cen taurus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 476 ✭✭Cen taurus


    RikuoAmero wrote: »
    Really? You haven't realized yet that the universe is a big place, with many galaxies, stars and planets? You haven't realized that in such a place, even something with only 1 in ten billion odds of occuring (random number I plucked out of the ether) can still happen quite regularly?

    Straw man fallacy.

    Where do I claim any of that exactly ?


  • #1225
    Cen taurus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 476 ✭✭Cen taurus


    orubiru wrote: »
    To be perfectly honest, I do not know if there is or is not evidence of Alien life. I suspect not or I would have read about it by now.

    So, I am going to go with NO there is no evidence for Alien life.

    However, since there is life on Earth and there are many stars and planets out there, I understand why the hypothesis is discussed and debated.

    The hypothesis is supported by facts but I do not believe it because it is just a hypothesis. I think it is a pretty interesting discussion though.

    The hypothesis for God... well let's be specific here. You believe in, and worship as your Lord, the Catholic God. I don't think we can ignore that fact.

    Would I be open to the idea of some being creating all things? Sure. It's an interesting hypothesis. Unsupported but interesting. I cannot say I believe it though. Not right now.

    The Catholic God? Well that is even more specific, isn't it? I mean, you guys can't even decide on the nature of your own God so what chance have you got with convincing someone like me that YOUR God exists?

    I just can't believe in it until you bring some evidence to the table.

    I am not saying that I am 100% sure that your God cannot possibly exist. I am just saying that I do not believe it based on the evidence provided.

    So, there you go.

    I've no issue what what people believe or don't believe, just an issue with people making false claims about theism etc.


  • #1226
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    Cen taurus wrote: »
    Non sequitur fallacy. Can you prove your claim that God must have been telling the lies and not the people that wrote it ?

    So anytime someone debates you and points at something in the bible that is clearly false (and hence would normally defeat someone's belief in their religion), you move the goalposts, such that "no no no no, it's not GOD's fault that there's something false in the bible, it's the fault of the humans who wrote it!"

    This is a clear cut case of wanting to eat your cake and have it too. You believe the positive claim of God exists because of the bible and RCC tradition...but whenever something is pointed out to you that is false in the bible, that somehow doesn't affect your justification for your belief in God.

    If the bible is just this man made document, with no ties at all to the divine...then what use is it? Why use it to support your belief in a specific god, and a specific denomination? At that point, it's just any other book, nothing special at all about it.


  • #1227
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Cen taurus wrote: »
    I don't know, you'll have to ask the person making a claim

    Should claims have proof ?

    You are the Catholic are you not ?


  • #1228
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    Cen taurus wrote: »
    Straw man fallacy.

    Where do I claim any of that exactly ?

    When you claimed that science hadn't found evidence.
    Statistics is a branch of science. If statistics favours one probability over another, that is a form of evidence to be used in favour of a belief in that probability.


  • #1229
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    Cen taurus wrote: »
    News to me, Science doesn't claim there is any evidence for alien life yet. You could be up for the noble prize.

    No, but many scientists have speculated on the probability of alien life existing.

    I think that's pretty harmless. Nobody is claiming that they have evidence.

    Is anyone in the scientific community really saying "Alien Life Exists!"? If so, I'd say that's pretty unprofessional and unscientific.

    Not like folks claiming that man caused sin or evil to enter the world and we are all gonna be judged by God at the end. Now THAT is making claims without evidence.


  • #1230
    Cen taurus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 476 ✭✭Cen taurus


    marienbad wrote: »
    You are the Catholic are you not ?

    Yes, you already posted that (from another forum), so I don't follow, what's your claim, are you claiming I'm not ?


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  • #1231
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Cen taurus wrote: »
    Yes, you already posted that (from another forum), so I don't follow, what's your claim, are you claiming I'm not ?

    Why is it relevant that it is from another forum ? You were being disingenuous on this one so it was time you were called out on it.


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