Looting and Rioting in St. Louis (Merged)

Egginacup · 05-03-2015 01:26PM

nokia69 wrote: »

so using your social justice warrior logic then, hardware shops that have a higher male than female customer % should be closed down for being sexist

the idea that just because a town is 67% black that the arrest stats need to be the same is just stupid

That was just pathetic. I said shops not any specific kind of shop. I could have said doctor's office or cinema or beach or park or restaurant.

You probably would have come up with the pathetic gynecologist office scenario. .....and gotten thanked by that pair for a brilliant piece of debating prowess.

Egginacup · 05-03-2015 01:33PM

SeanW wrote: »

Wow, I've never seen so much loaded BS in a single post. Ever.

There is a big difference between "inherently more predisposed to commit crimes than" and "simply commits more crimes than".

Specifically, the latter includes while the former excludes, the possibility that another group commits more crimes for sociological reasons, greater poverty, historical disadvantage, a culture of criminality etc.

But hey, why bother with subtleties and nuances when you just play the "racist" card?

It's not loaded in the slightest. It's worded that way for the obvious reason that if one were to say "blacks commit more crimes than whites" then you would need to fall back on arrest and conviction statistics to verify it which is quite frankly farcical.

TommyOM · 05-03-2015 02:05PM

nokia69 wrote: »

I really don't know

what do the conviction rates and the prison stats show

So to be clear here, you are saying that it is a possibility that black people are more predispositioned to crime?

You didn't answer yes or no the first time, maybe now you will (unlikely)

ohnonotgmail · 05-03-2015 02:09PM

TommyOM wrote: »

So to be clear here, you are saying that it is a possibility that black people are more predispositioned to crime?

You didn't answer yes or no the first time, maybe now you will (unlikely)

Nobody has said that. There is no evidence to suggest it. What there is evidence to suggest is that people on the lower end of the income scale tend to be more involved in crime. and black people in the states tend to be nearer the bottom of that scale.

nokia69 · 05-03-2015 02:12PM

TommyOM wrote: »

So to be clear here, you are saying that it is a possibility that black people are more predispositioned to crime?

You didn't answer yes or no the first time, maybe now you will (unlikely)

you want to think that I'm a racist

if it gives you a nice smug feeling then go ahead

Egginacup · 05-03-2015 02:39PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Nobody has said that. There is no evidence to suggest it. What there is evidence to suggest is that people on the lower end of the income scale tend to be more involved in crime. and black people in the states tend to be nearer the bottom of that scale.

We're talking about Ferguson here where 2/3 of the population is black. They don't ALL live in ghettoes with no future and no source of income bar drug dealing and petty larceny. The percentage of the black community with a penchant for criminality should be equal to the corresponding percentage within the white (or non-black) community, wouldn't you agree?

If 10% of the population are criminals then that should still reflect in the arrest statistics, i.e. 2/3 black, 1/3 non black, but it doesn't. It's > 9/10 black, < 1/10 non-black.

So, either blacks really DO have more of a criminal streak or the arrest numbers that tell the story are weighted.

This isn't rocket science. It's not complex mathematics or reasoning here.

Egginacup · 05-03-2015 02:43PM

nokia69 wrote: »

you want to think that I'm a racist

if it gives you a nice smug feeling then go ahead

Well either you are racist or you don't have the strength of character to face up to the ugly truth that a system you put so much faith in might actually be nefarious

ohnonotgmail · 05-03-2015 02:44PM

Egginacup wrote: »

We're talking about Ferguson here where 2/3 of the population is black. They don't ALL live in ghettoes with no future and no source of income bar drug dealing and petty larceny. The percentage of the black community with a penchant for criminality should be equal to the corresponding percentage within the white (or non-black) community, wouldn't you agree?

If 10% of the population are criminals then that should still reflect in the arrest statistics, i.e. 2/3 black, 1/3 non black, but it doesn't. It's > 9/10 black, < 1/10 non-black.

So, either blacks really DO have more of a criminal streak or the arrest numbers that tell the story are weighted.

This isn't rocket science. It's not complex mathematics or reasoning here.

Again you go back to this simplistic view that the racial makeup of the population should be reflected in the criminal population. You concentrate on one element and ignore everything else. Your analysis is flawed.

Tombo2001 · 05-03-2015 02:49PM

Egginacup wrote: »

It's not loaded in the slightest. It's worded that way for the obvious reason that if one were to say "blacks commit more crimes than whites" then you would need to fall back on arrest and conviction statistics to verify it which is quite frankly farcical.

Its completely loaded.

What does the word 'inherent' mean.....

It means that its in somebody's nature, part of their intrinsic nature to do something.....

So you are saying.....ignore the heritage of slavery, racism, poverty, low funding for education, racial profiling by the law enforcement authorities, being part of arguably the most socially immobile society amongst developed countries...

.....ignore all of that.......they are nothing to do with the reason that black people commit more crime....

the reason is that its in their nature.....

BS.

SeanW · 05-03-2015 02:54PM

Egginacup wrote: »

It's not loaded in the slightest. It's worded that way for the obvious reason that if one were to say "blacks commit more crimes than whites" then you would need to fall back on arrest and conviction statistics to verify it which is quite frankly farcical.

Huh? Simplify this crap for me, if one believes that black people commit more crimes can it be only that:

The person is a racist
There may be other factors (poverty, culture etc) in play?

Egginacup wrote: »

We're talking about Ferguson here where 2/3 of the population is black. They don't ALL live in ghettoes with no future and no source of income bar drug dealing and petty larceny.

A goodly number of them, yes.

The percentage of the black community with a penchant for criminality should be equal to the corresponding percentage within the white (or non-black) community, wouldn't you agree?

Not if culture or poverty plays a role. Nuance is obviously not your strong suit.

If 10% of the population are criminals then that should still reflect in the arrest statistics, i.e. 2/3 black, 1/3 non black, but it doesn't. It's > 9/10 black, < 1/10 non-black.

No, it shouldn't

So, either blacks really DO have more of a criminal streak or the arrest numbers that tell the story are weighted.

Weighted, yes, but by some factor beyond your imagination.

darkpagandeath · 05-03-2015 03:03PM

I would like to see A breakdown of Serious/Violent Crimes by Race in places like this, And not just general crime statistics. That would be a lot more telling.

Egginacup · 05-03-2015 03:32PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Again you go back to this simplistic view that the racial makeup of the population should be reflected in the criminal population. You concentrate on one element and ignore everything else. Your analysis is flawed.

Well let's simplify the argument. Let's break it down where things like poverty, etc. don't come in to the equation.

67% of the population of Ferguson is black yet 85% of the traffic stops involve a black driver. The only way to account for this without bias coming in to play is that for every 8.5 black drivers/car owners there are only 1.5 non-black drivers/car owners.

ohnonotgmail · 05-03-2015 03:35PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Well let's simplify the argument. Let's break it down where things like poverty, etc. don't come in to the equation.

But they do. So ignoring them just leads back to your flawed analysis.

i hate to use wikipedia as a source but this is a good place for you to start

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_inequality_in_the_American_criminal_justice_system

05-03-2015 03:52PM

Egginacup wrote: »

Well let's simplify the argument. Let's break it down where things like poverty, etc. don't come in to the equation.

Lol. Lets just ignore major factors to suit your point of view.

Lol.

end of the road · 05-03-2015 03:59PM

nokia69 wrote: »

the leader of the social justice warriors in all matters race related

not social justice warriors at all. people against systemic racism and bigotry.

end of the road · 05-03-2015 04:03PM

nokia69 wrote: »

social justice warrior

another term used by the bigoted

RWCNT · 05-03-2015 04:06PM

end of the road wrote: »

not social justice warriors at all. people against systemic racism and bigotry.

I love being called a social justice warrior. Why on earth would that be a bad thing?

TommyOM · 05-03-2015 05:09PM

nokia69 wrote: »

you want to think that I'm a racist

if it gives you a nice smug feeling then go ahead

Why dont you answer the question then.

Do you think its possible that black people are more predispositioned to crime? Yes or no..

Kim Kardashi Un · 05-03-2015 05:27PM

TommyOM wrote: »

Why dont you answer the question then.

Do you think its possible that black people are more predispositioned to crime? Yes or no..

Oh no you di'int!

nokia69 · 05-03-2015 05:29PM

TommyOM wrote: »

Why dont you answer the question then.

Do you think its possible that black people are more predispositioned to crime? Yes or no..

a predisposition to crime, no probably not

but they do commit a higher % of crime than their % of the population

Egginacup · 05-03-2015 05:34PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

But they do. So ignoring them just leads back to your flawed analysis.

i hate to use wikipedia as a source but this is a good place for you to start

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_inequality_in_the_American_criminal_justice_system

First of all you are changing the parameters of the debate here. Why are 85% of stops black in an area where just 2/3 of the population is black. This has nothing to do with the driver being poor and committing a crime. What crime is he committing that would warrant being pulled over in disproportionately higher numbers than white drivers?

If you can answer that without deflecting to some statistic I'll tip my hat to you.

ohnonotgmail · 05-03-2015 05:36PM

Egginacup wrote: »

First of all you are changing the parameters of the debate here. Why are 85% of stops black in an area where just 2/3 of the population is black. This has nothing to do with the driver being poor and committing a crime. What crime is he committing that would warrant being pulled over in disproportionately higher numbers than white drivers?

If you can answer that without deflecting to some statistic I'll tip my hat to you.

I havent changed the parameters of the debate at all. When i came in we were discussing whether black people were more predisposed to crime. Any mention of traffic stops must have been well before that and i've no intention of reading back 50 pages because you want to move the goalposts.

Egginacup · 05-03-2015 05:44PM

circadian wrote: »

Lol. Lets just ignore major factors to suit your point of view.

Lol.

How does poverty come into play when getting pulled over in your car?
The less money you have the shittier your driving? Is that what you're trying to infer?

Egginacup · 05-03-2015 05:50PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I havent changed the parameters of the debate at all. When i came in we were discussing whether black people were more predisposed to crime. Any mention of traffic stops must have been well before that and i've no intention of reading back 50 pages because you want to move the goalposts.

No, I first brought up the traffic stop anomaly 1 page ago and it was directed at you. I started the post with "Let's simplify the argument..."

I brought up the traffic stop issue to, like I said, remove factors of poverty as a catalyst for criminal behaviour. You responded to that post with a statistic from Wikipedia that addressed the very issue that I was trying to eliminate from a question that I asked about blatant bias.

ohnonotgmail · 05-03-2015 05:52PM

Egginacup wrote: »

No, I first brought up the traffic stop anomaly 1 page ago and it was directed at you. I started the post with "Let's simplify the argument..."

I brought up the traffic stop issue to, like I said, remove factors of poverty as a catalyst for criminal behaviour. You responded to that post with a statistic from Wikipedia that addressed the very issue that I was trying to eliminate from a question that I asked about blatant bias.

so you admit to moving the goalposts away from the original topic?

nokia69 · 05-03-2015 05:56PM

what exactly is meant by a traffic stop in the US

in the last few months I have been stopped 3 times by the Gardaí checking tax and insurance, so what

Egginacup · 05-03-2015 06:06PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so you admit to moving the goalposts away from the original topic?

No. Not at all. The argument was that black arrests far outstrip their demographic. People such as yourself insisted that it couldn't be anything to do with bias and that the figures must reflect the fact that blacks committed crime at a (much) higher rate than white and that poverty was also a factor.

I didn't move the goalposts at all, I simplified the issue of police bias by asking then why blacks are disproportionately pulled over in their cars. A question you have thus far avoided.

ohnonotgmail · 05-03-2015 06:18PM

Egginacup wrote: »

No. Not at all. The argument was that black arrests far outstrip their demographic. People such as yourself insisted that it couldn't be anything to do with bias and that the figures must reflect the fact that blacks committed crime at a (much) higher rate than white and that poverty was also a factor.

I didn't move the goalposts at all, I simplified the issue of police bias by asking then why blacks are disproportionately pulled over in their cars. A question you have thus far avoided.

No it was about blacks committing crime in general. you are now trying to move the goalposts to talk about traffic stops. Which frankly are an inconvenience at worst for a law abiding citizen. And again you are tying to apply this simplistic view of looking at it from a racial point of view. If you have some statistics that back this up that have normalised for all other factors i would love to see them. The only statistics i can find are these

s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/695709/the-influence-of-drivers-race-on-traffic-stops.pdf ( you will need to add https:// to the front of that)

and they dont seem to conclusively show what you think they show.

what these stats dont include is WHY the car was stopped. By that i mean the reason given by the officer. if poor people drive older cars that are more likely to have faults such as broken lights that attract the attention of the police then they are more likely to get pulled over. they also dont say what time of day these stops take. 4 guys driving around late at night are going to attract more attention than one guy driving to work during rush hour. But you seem keen to solely focus on the race of the driver to the exclusion of all else. So yet again any analysis you make is based on a flawed premise and therefore any conclusions you make are flawed.

Egginacup · 05-03-2015 06:31PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

No it was about blacks committing crime in general. you are now trying to move the goalposts to talk about traffic stops. Which frankly are an inconvenience at worst for a law abiding citizen. And again you are tying to apply this simplistic view of looking at it from a racial point of view. If you have some statistics that back this up that have normalised for all other factors i would love to see them. The only statistics i can find are these

s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/695709/the-influence-of-drivers-race-on-traffic-stops.pdf ( you will need to add https:// to the front of that)

and they dont seem to conclusively show what you think they show.

what these stats dont include is WHY the car was stopped. By that i mean the reason given by the officer. if poor people drive older cars that are more likely to have faults such as broken lights that attract the attention of the police then they are more likely to get pulled over. they also dont say what time of day these stops take. 4 guys driving around late at night are going to attract more attention than one guy driving to work during rush hour. But you seem keen to solely focus on the race of the driver to the exclusion of all else. So yet again any analysis you make is based on a flawed premise and therefore any conclusions you make are flawed.

Excuse me but you don't pull over a car that you suspect has a broken light because it's old. You pull over a car when you can see clearly that the light is broken. Or the driver is speeding or didn't signal a lane change or ran a stop sign or red light. Now you're really reaching into the realms of farce.

And as for solely focussing on the race of the driver..of course I'm focussing on the race of the driver. Nearly 9 out of 10 people pulled over by the police in Ferguson are black. Only two thirds of the population are black. In fact these number are even more startling because blacks being poorer as you earlier pointed out are even less likely to have a car. So while the demographics of the area are 2 to 1, the ratio of black drivers to white drivers is more likely to be 50/50.

And even if half the black drivers drive around in bangers with busted lights, smoke billowing from the engine, exhaust dragging off the road at midnight, that still means that for every 1 white driver pulled over in a roadworthy car during the day, 4 black drivers are pulled over in the same circumstances.

Amazingfun · 05-03-2015 06:36PM

Between 1990 and 2010, Ferguson's racial composition shifted dramatically with the black population rising from 25 percent to 67 percent. Meanwhile, the white population plummeted from 74 percent to just 29 percent. Aug 19, 2014

http://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2014/08/19/chart-ferguson-white-flight/

Looting and Rioting in St. Louis (Merged)

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