Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

looksee · 02-03-2015 10:32PM

I can't see why it matters whether Jesus existed or not. I would tend to the view that he probably did, that doesn't mean that I believe all the reported miracles that went on around him.

katydid · 02-03-2015 10:36PM

marienbad wrote: »

''Yes, I made the claim that in some cases the nuns were envious of the women.'' This is the claim you made -correct ?

What is there to misunderstand ? It is just a bizarre statement . Do you have any sources to give ? Anything ?

Do you know what went on in these places ?

Simply saying it's a bizarre statement doesn't make it a bizarre statement.

WHY is it bizarre to speculate that some women who were forced into religious life might have been envious of women who were not, and who had experienced life in a way they never would? And that having an opportunity to control their lives, would take the opportunity to take their frustration out on them?

J C · 02-03-2015 10:36PM

RikuoAmero wrote: »

This tells me all I need to know about how credible that site is
Section 1: The Bible
We believe the Bible, comprised of the Old and New Testaments, to be the inspired, infallible, and authoritative Word of God (Matthew 5:18; 2 Timothy 3:16-17). In faith we hold the Bible to be inerrant in the original writings, God-breathed, and the complete and final authority for faith and practice (2 Timothy 3:16-17). While still using the individual writing styles of the human authors, the Holy Spirit perfectly guided them to ensure they wrote precisely what He wanted written, without error or omission (2 Peter 1:21).

... but something written by an Atheist is infallible???

The article should be critiqued on its merits ... not by an ad hominem ... by critiquing the person and the beliefs of the person who wrote it, rather than what they wrote.

orubiru · 02-03-2015 10:37PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

This is my own argument.
How can you possibly believe that all of this created itself? Are you saying this all happened by random chance? Science has shown that our brains (and the brains of other animals) are coded to do whatever. Things can't code themselves. They must have been coded by an intelligent mind. God. The same goes for the universe. I remember reading somewhere that if the location or something of this planet was the slightest bit different, life would not be possible.

Why do people struggle with the idea of random chance?

The lottery is totally random. Yet every few weeks someone wins the jackpot. "Are you saying I won the lottery by random chance?" Um, yes.

The Universe is rather large and rather old. Random chance is a definite possibility.

I get it though. Everything is so complex so surely it was created by an intelligent mind, right? Well then who created the mind that created the mind that created the mind that created the mind that... oh lets draw a completly arbitrary line here and call that line "God".

It is true that our planet is a finely balanced system, as is the universe. Does this point to "design"? I don't think so. Had one of my parents parents taken a job overseas then I would very likely have never been born. Is that just random chance or is the hand of God even guiding events like that?

If we get past all that stuff then we are left asking "why is this design so obviously flawed and so poorly thought out".

Seriously, imagine if you designed a car that kind of maybe worked some of the time. It might last 99 years or 99 minutes, who knows. It might break down or blow up. The steering might be all over the place or the headlights might not work or both of those problems and more all at once. It needs very very specific fuel and this might be available in abundance, or not. Oh and the fuel itself might cause blow up or break down or accident.

If THIS is someone's design then the designer is anything but intelligent.

I can imagine God informing the other Gods... "hey guys! I made this world where all the creatures have to devour each other in order to live"... He is met by stunned silence.

Or is the messed up nature of our world evidence of a creator, driven out of His mind by solitude, coming up with mental ideas and just throwing them out there with nobody to say "hang on George, I think you've gone too far in a few places".

orubiru · 02-03-2015 10:44PM

J C wrote: »

God will tell us all exactly what He was thinking ... as He judges those who don't want to be Saved and rewards those who want to be Saved at the end of time.

Why are we not allowed to judge God?

This is almost precisely the point where people turn from Religion.

"God doesn't need to answer to the likes of you". Right. OK then.

I want to be "Saved" and I want to be rewarded but I think someone needs to have a word in Gods ear.

Don't you think that maybe God doesn't understand Humanity at all... "I know you are angry but all those children HAD to suffer and die"... I don't care how omnipotent and blah blah blah whatever you are, that stuff wont just wash off.

RikuoAmero · 02-03-2015 10:46PM

J C wrote: »

... but something written by an Atheist is infallible???

The article should be critiqued on its merits ... not by an ad hominem ... by critiquing the person and the beliefs of the person who wrote it, rather than what they wrote.

Show me a website or an article by an atheist where they claim infallibility and your point there might be credible.
Until then...
As for my response supposedly being an ad hom. No. It was not. I merely pointed out that any conclusions spoken by these people are highly suspect, given their statement of faith, of how they believe this one volume of books to be infallible. Just like what you have done in the past by linking to AnswersinGenesis, who proudly proclaim their disdain for any evidence that doesn't match up with their preconceived notion of bible infallibility.

marienbad · 02-03-2015 10:52PM

katydid wrote: »

Simply saying it's a bizarre statement doesn't make it a bizarre statement.

WHY is it bizarre to speculate that some women who were forced into religious life might have been envious of women who were not, and who had experienced life in a way they never would? And that having an opportunity to control their lives, would take the opportunity to take their frustration out on them?

You are not just saying ''envious of women who were not'' though are you, you are saying envious of those women and children forced into Magdalene laundries ,many for decades working backbreaking 10 hour days with powerful chemicals without a bit of protection and in total silence .

Do you think the prison officers in Mountjoy are envious of their wards even if they have flat screen t.v's ,3 square meals , books newspapers ,education for many , free health care ?

It is a bizarre claim ,no other word for it , but as usual Kathy you just can't let it go, so if you want the last word go for it .

Safehands · 02-03-2015 10:57PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

What is a thread like this going to prove? Atheists have no evidence to support their claims about God not existing. Us religious people have evidence that suggests there is a God.

OK, you are right, we have no evidence that God does not exist. You have us all with that clever piece of deduction. I have a further admission, I have no proof that Leprechauns don't exist either, or Unicorns, or fairies. No proof at all, I'm so inadequate.
So Ted, enlighten me. Show me the evidence. Any evidence for Leprechauns, while you are at it!

katydid · 02-03-2015 11:07PM

marienbad wrote: »

You are not just saying ''envious of women who were not'' though are you, you are saying envious of those women and children forced into Magdalene laundries ,many for decades working backbreaking 10 hour days with powerful chemicals without a bit of protection and in total silence .

Do you think the prison officers in Mountjoy are envious of their wards even if they have flat screen t.v's ,3 square meals , books newspapers ,education for many , free health care ?

It is a bizarre claim ,no other word for it , but as usual Kathy you just can't let it go, so if you want the last word go for it .

Yes, I am saying they are envious. Envious of their life experiences, envious that they got to enjoy things that they would never experience.
Which is WHY they treated them the way they did.

Jeez...

marienbad · 02-03-2015 11:12PM

katydid wrote: »

Yes, I am saying they are envious. Envious of their life experiences, envious that they got to enjoy things that they would never experience.
Which is WHY they treated them the way they did.

Jeez...

What life experience ? being incarcerated at 14 ? Please just let it go for once .

katydid · 02-03-2015 11:23PM

marienbad wrote: »

What life experience ? being incarcerated at 14 ? Please just let it go for once .

Having boyfriends, having sex, becoming mothers...do you have any idea WHY women were incarcerated? Of course, there were the ones who ended up there because of perceived "loose morals", or who were orphans, but the general purpose of the institutions was to deal with "fallen women".

Let what go? You have totally lost the plot on this one, and you ask ME to let it go. Just admit you misunderstood and we can move on.

marienbad · 02-03-2015 11:27PM

katydid wrote: »

Having boyfriends, having sex, becoming mothers...do you have any idea WHY women were incarcerated? Of course, there were the ones who ended up there because of perceived "loose morals", or who were orphans, but the general purpose of the institutions was to deal with "fallen women".

Let what go? You have totally lost the plot on this one, and you ask ME to let it go. Just admit you misunderstood and we can move on.

Did you say that the nuns were envious of the women in their charge ? What have I misunderstood ?

silverharp · 02-03-2015 11:36PM

katydid wrote: »

Having boyfriends, having sex, becoming mothers...do you have any idea WHY women were incarcerated? Of course, there were the ones who ended up there because of perceived "loose morals", or who were orphans, but the general purpose of the institutions was to deal with "fallen women".

Let what go? You have totally lost the plot on this one, and you ask ME to let it go. Just admit you misunderstood and we can move on.

I'd imagine it was more like the Standford prison experiment.

Safehands · 03-03-2015 08:32AM

katydid wrote: »

the general purpose of the institutions was to deal with "fallen women".

The only "fallen women" in my opinion, were the ones who joined the nuns and gave up their normal life and place in society becuse of a successful brainwashing campaign by a bunch of twisted misogynistic old men.

tommy2bad · 03-03-2015 10:17AM

katydid wrote: »

Yes, I am saying they are envious. Envious of their life experiences, envious that they got to enjoy things that they would never experience.
Which is WHY they treated them the way they did.

Jeez...

I doubt that's the whole story, it may have been a factor but to think it was the main factor or even a major factor is stretching it a bit.
what happened was the result of a complex set of circumstances, probably poverty played a bigger part than anything else but even that alone wouldn't cause a situation like the laundrys.

Father Ted Crilly · 03-03-2015 10:27AM

orubiru wrote: »

I get it though. Everything is so complex so surely it was created by an intelligent mind, right? Well then who created the mind that created the mind that created the mind that created the mind that... oh lets draw a completly arbitrary line here and call that line "God".

What created everything in the universe and everything before the universe? Think of what was here before the universe. Nothing, sweet nothing. Then BOOM! All these big lumps of <snip> we call planets and stars. All these metals. Water. Air. Oxygen.

Let's look at it this way, a baby cannot create itself. How did all life begin? Once upon a time there was absolutely NOTHING, then a big explosion that seemingly happened on its own accord created a whole load of materials and living organisms and stuff. How is that possible? How does something create itself? Maybe that event that could not have possibly caused itself did cause itself. But then how would you explain life? How was life created? The first living organism. How? HOW?

Father Ted Crilly · 03-03-2015 10:37AM

If Jesus didn't exist, why would scientists be investigating this: www .livescience.com/49997-jesus-house-possibly-found-nazareth.html ?

silverharp · 03-03-2015 10:51AM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

What created everything in the universe and everything before the universe? Think of what was here before the universe. Nothing, sweet nothing. Then BOOM! All these big lumps of sh*te we call planets and stars. All these metals. Water. Air. Oxygen.

Let's look at it this way, a baby cannot create itself. How did all life begin? Once upon a time there was absolutely NOTHING, then a big explosion that seemingly happened on its own accord created a whole load of materials and living organisms and stuff. How is that possible? How does something create itself? Maybe that event that could not have possibly caused itself did cause itself. But then how would you explain life? How was life created? The first living organism. How? HOW?

Watch a video on cargo cults, they can't figure out how planes fly . inserting a deity for a knowledge gap isn't logical. Also none of this helps you prove that any particular religion is true, no deity has contacted humanity on a universal basis. Its the least I'd expect of a deity and not be so provincial about it, which would mean that either wait until one does or its such a distant entity that it doesnt care about knowing individuals so no point putting much effort into it or simpler again there isn't one.

silverharp · 03-03-2015 10:55AM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

If Jesus didn't exist, why would scientists be investigating this: www .livescience.com/49997-jesus-house-possibly-found-nazareth.html ?

I'd imagine plenty of atheists believe he existed , what's your point?

katydid · 03-03-2015 10:56AM

marienbad wrote: »

Did you say that the nuns were envious of the women in their charge ? What have I misunderstood ?

Erm, I've explained this to you about four times now. Read my posts.

katydid · 03-03-2015 10:57AM

Safehands wrote: »

The only "fallen women" in my opinion, were the ones who joined the nuns and gave up their normal life and place in society becuse of a successful brainwashing campaign by a bunch of twisted misogynistic old men.

Well, they didn't all join unwillingly. And many of them lived good, fruitful lives and inspired young girls in their charge in schools and other institutions. As in most situations, it was a minority that gave the rest a bad name.

katydid · 03-03-2015 10:58AM

tommy2bad wrote: »

I doubt that's the whole story, it may have been a factor but to think it was the main factor or even a major factor is stretching it a bit.
what happened was the result of a complex set of circumstances, probably poverty played a bigger part than anything else but even that alone wouldn't cause a situation like the laundrys.

No, indeed, it's not the whole story. Never said it was. But it's a factor in some cases, without doubt.

Father Ted Crilly · 03-03-2015 10:59AM

I was talking about Jesus existing. Not religions being right or God existing. I can't remember their name but someone made a post saying Jesus didn't exist.

marienbad · 03-03-2015 11:01AM

katydid wrote: »

No, indeed, it's not the whole story. Never said it was. But it's a factor in some cases, without doubt.

any sources ?

marienbad · 03-03-2015 11:07AM

katydid wrote: »

Erm, I've explained this to you about four times now. Read my posts.

So I haven't misunderstood you then . Grown women usually from comfortable homes were envious of mostly young women and children taken against their will from usually poorer homes ,used as slave labour for years,many had their babies taken from them and sold abroad . And the nuns were envious ? right .

And you offer nothing to support this ?

katydid · 03-03-2015 11:14AM

marienbad wrote: »

So I haven't misunderstood you then . Grown women usually from comfortable homes were envious of mostly young women and children taken against their will from usually poorer homes ,used as slave labour for years,many had their babies taken from them and sold abroad . And the nuns were envious ? right .

And you offer nothing to support this ?

I'm going to say this one more time; read my posts.

If you still don't understand, there's no point in me repeating myself ad infinitum.

orubiru · 03-03-2015 11:22AM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

What created everything in the universe and everything before the universe? Think of what was here before the universe. Nothing, sweet nothing. Then BOOM! All these big lumps of we call planets and stars. All these metals. Water. Air. Oxygen.

Let's look at it this way, a baby cannot create itself. How did all life begin? Once upon a time there was absolutely NOTHING, then a big explosion that seemingly happened on its own accord created a whole load of materials and living organisms and stuff. How is that possible? How does something create itself? Maybe that event that could not have possibly caused itself did cause itself. But then how would you explain life? How was life created? The first living organism. How? HOW?

Hm. Well a baby doesn't create itself, yes, that's true. Is a baby not simply created by natural processes?

So you are asking what created the processes that create other things?

The answer is that we don't know. Not yet.

Will we ever know? Maybe not.

Your thought process seems to be that all things are created and so it follows that there must be an entity that created the things. This only makes us ask well who created the thing that created the thing that created the thing and this extends infinitely.

If there was "absolutely NOTHING" then how could God exist? Is God nothing or something?

If God is something then God could not exist at a time when there was nothing.

Something does not create itself. Processes occur and through those processes things are CHANGED.

Stop thinking in terms of "creation" and start thinking in terms of "change". Over time processes act upon things and this causes them to change.

Nobody knows where the Universe came from. Was it created? Nobody knows. Where did life come from? Nobody knows. How will it all end? Nobody knows.

Now, I would say "hey, let's try to discover the answers". That seems perfectly reasonable to me it's interesting and it's a real test of our selves to study and read up and discover how everything works.

Maybe there are blank spaces, things I'll never know, but that's OK. Isn't it?

Certainly, I'd rather be the guy admitting I don't know the answer then be the guy shouting "You don't know? You don't KNOW? Hahaha! Heeheehee! This fool can't even explain Abiogenesis or Quantum Mechanics or Astrophysics! Bwahahahahaha! Everything was called into being by the Divine Will of the Mighty Creator".

I have listed your questions below...

How did all life begin?
How is that (The Big Bang) possible?
How does something create itself?
How would you explain life?
How was life created?
The first living organism. How? HOW?

A simple internet search will reveal our current "best guess" at the answers to these questions. Often you will find claims backed up by evidence and peer reviewed studies.

If you believe it's all done by God then you accept that God is something. If God is something then God could not come from Nothing. So, who created God? If God was created then Gods Creator is something. If Gods Creator is something then Gods Creator could not come from Nothing. So, who created Gods Creator?

Imagine for a second that you asked God... "where did you come from?" Would you not have the same objections and questions towards God?
Where do you think God came from? How did God just spring into existence? How? HOW?

At some point we reach the inevitable conclusion that for anything to exist (Us, God, Gods Creator, The Creator of Gods Creator) there has to have always been something or there has to indeed be some mechanism wherby nothing can become something. We'd still end up looking for some kind of Abiogenesis.

Nobody knows right now. Fill in the gaps with "God" if you must but it makes you just as ignorant as anybody else. At least there are people searching for the answers.

"Pack it up guys! The Christians have it all figured out! Shut down the science labs and the schools and get yourselves to church!" Said no one ever.

orubiru · 03-03-2015 11:33AM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

What created everything in the universe and everything before the universe? Think of what was here before the universe. Nothing, sweet nothing. Then BOOM! All these big lumps of <snip> we call planets and stars. All these metals. Water. Air. Oxygen.

To quickly add here. We do actually know how metals, water, air and oxygen are created. You can look it up.

The Big Bang created mostly Hydrogen and Heluim. Everything else came afterwards and was formed by natural processes.

To be honest... anyone with Wikipedia and a few hours to spare should be able to get this stuff.

HOWEVER, if you are one of those folks who believe there is some massive, far reaching, conspiracy to silence Religion and further the "ulterior motives" of Science then, yes, you are probably going to have a problem here.

marienbad · 03-03-2015 12:23PM

katydid wrote: »

I'm going to say this one more time; read my posts.

If you still don't understand, there's no point in me repeating myself ad infinitum.

So no sources then ?

RikuoAmero · 03-03-2015 01:17PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

What created everything in the universe and everything before the universe? Think of what was here before the universe. Nothing, sweet nothing. Then BOOM! All these big lumps of <snip> we call planets and stars. All these metals. Water. Air. Oxygen.

Let's look at it this way, a baby cannot create itself. How did all life begin? Once upon a time there was absolutely NOTHING, then a big explosion that seemingly happened on its own accord created a whole load of materials and living organisms and stuff. How is that possible? How does something create itself? Maybe that event that could not have possibly caused itself did cause itself. But then how would you explain life? How was life created? The first living organism. How? HOW?

The Big Bang wasn't an explosion. It was an expansion. Huge difference there. If you'd bothered to check up on it before coming here, you'd know that. Also, stars and planets didn't immediately pop into existence. They took millions if not billions of years to form.
What I suggest you do is do research. Lots of it. Do it before you come back here on this thread and embarrass yourself again, just like you've done here. Like with your posts last night, what you've been writing only reveals your complete ignorance on certain topics.

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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