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How does Mo Farah stack up in the history books?

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Comments

  • #32
    Netwerk_Errer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Netwerk_Errer


    NiallG4 wrote: »
    I think you have missed something. We have Irish junior athletes running comparable times to his junior times but I cant see them all of a sudden winning Olympic titles and running 3.28 for 1500M. Just my opinion. I was 99% suspicious but when he ran 3.28......

    Who?

    John Treacy's Irish junior record is 14:04 and look what he went on to accomplish(a world beater) There is no junior athlete in this country even approaching that nevermind Mo's junior time of 13:56. I can bet that Mo had far more upside in potential than treacy given that he was probably running half the mileage Treacy was running at that age.

    Did you look at the progression table I posted above?

    Lads, come on. Atleast tell the truth and give some facts to back up the claims ye are making.


  • #33
    dublin runner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭dublin runner


    To compare Farah to someone like Beleke is pure folly. I'm sure I can draw a table an illustrate but why bother when then difference is so great, even to the casual observer.

    Mo is a great runner but one of the top 5 or even top 10? No.


  • #34
    Netwerk_Errer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Netwerk_Errer


    dublin runner wrote: »
    To compare Farah to someone like Beleke is pure folly. I'm sure I can draw a table an illustrate but why bother when then difference is so great, even to the casual observer.

    Mo is a great runner but one of the top 5 or even top 10? No.

    I never said Mo was better or even with Bekele DR. To say he's not in the top 10 is straight out ridiculous though. 3.28-26:46(changed from half to 10k to keep you happy GinC) proves just how great he is. Said Aouita can't even nearly lay claim to a range like that, no one can.

    I put up a table for the Kipchoge comparison of times to prove my point and to show people that it's hypocritical to say Mo isn't great because he hasn't run the times but somehow Kipchoge is above him even when Farah outperforms him in their PB's and has the medals to boot.


  • #35
    thirstywork2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭thirstywork2


    Netwerk_Errer wrote: »
    2014 13:23.42 Portland, OR 15 JUN
    2013 13:05.88 Eugene, OR 01 JUN
    2012 12:56.98 Eugene, OR 02 JUN
    2011 12:53.11 Monaco (Stade Louis II) 22 JUL
    2010 12:57.94 Zürich (Letzigrund) 19 AUG
    2009 13:09.14 London (CP) 24 JUL
    2008 13:08.11 Bruxelles 05 SEP
    2007 13:07.00 Bruxelles 14 SEP
    2006 13:09.40 Heusden-Zolder 22 JUL
    2005 13:30.53 Solihull 25 JUN
    2003 13:38.41 London 08 AUG
    2002 14:00.5 Watford 14 AUG
    2001 13:56.31 Solihull 23 JUN
    2000 14:05.72 Solihull 19 AUG




    There's Mo's progression over 5k since he was 17. He would've dominated nearly every American HS senior in history bar pretty much only Rupp. He came 8th in the World Junior XC in 1999 in which Bekele won. I'm with walshb again, people act like he came from nowhere. Did he get help, I don't know but I sure as hell ain't going judge guilt by association, suspicion yes. Every person mentioned on this thread would be guilty if that was the case. They have all had murky associates.

    Also as you can see before everyone jumps on the Salazar slating, Mo ran sub-13 the year before he joined Salazar.

    Maybe take a look at his progression over 1500m and remember he was training for 5k/10k when running that 3.28

    2013 3:28.81 Monaco (Stade Louis II) 19 JUL
    2012 3:34.66 Los Angeles (OC), CA 18 MAY
    2009 3:33.98 Monaco (Stade Louis II) 28 JUL
    2008 3:39.66 Birmingham, GBR 13 JUL
    2007 3:46.50 Birmingham, GBR 07 JUL
    2006 3:38.02 Rieti 27 AUG
    2005 3:38.62 Zürich 19 AUG
    2003 3:43.17 Eton 14 JUN

    His records up to 2009 in Championships where shocking(take a look below)
    40th & 70th in the World Cross country short course.
    37th in the long race and 59th as a Junior.11th was his best finish but almost 2minutes behind the winner.10th in the world juniors just 1 second ahead of Thompson and almost 30seconds behind the winner.
    I think you are being very selective and not looking at the bigger picture.
    As pointed out before Farah ran Euro u23 twice and failed to win both times.Thompson beat him and Rob Connolly finished 3rd that day just behind Farah.
    SNIP



    PERSONAL BESTS
    PROGRESSION
    HONOURS
    ATHLETE REPRESENTATIVE
    3000 METRES

    6th IAAF/VTB Bank World Athletics Final 9 8:05.97 Stuttgart 13 SEP 2008
    12th IAAF World Indoor Championships 6 7:55.08 Valencia (Velódromo Luis Puig), ESP 09 MAR 2008
    5th IAAF World Athletics Final 3 7:49.89 Stuttgart 22 SEP 2007
    4th IAAF World Athletics Final 12 8:00.60 Stuttgart 09 SEP 2006
    5000 METRES

    04 SEP 2011
    12th IAAF World Championships in Athletics 7 13:19.69 Berlin (Olympiastadion) 23 AUG 2009
    The XXIX Olympic Games 6h2 13:50.95 Beijing (National Stadium) 20 AUG 2008
    5th IAAF World Athletics Final 7 13:41.61 Stuttgart 23 SEP 2007
    11th IAAF World Championships in Athletics 6 13:47.54 Osaka (Nagai Stadium) 02 SEP 2007
    IAAF/Coca Cola World Junior Championships 10 14:12.21 Santiago de Chile 21 OCT 2000
    28 AUG 2011
    SENIOR RACE
    RANK MARK WIND PLACE DATE
    38th IAAF World Cross Country Championships 20 34:09 Bydgoszcz 28 MAR 2010
    35th IAAF World Cross Country Championships 11 37:31 Mombasa 24 MAR 2007
    JUNIOR RACE
    RANK MARK WIND PLACE DATE
    IAAF World Cross Country Championships 59 28:06 Oostende 25 MAR 2001
    SHORT RACE
    RANK MARK WIND PLACE DATE
    34th IAAF World Cross Country Championships 40 11:27 Fukuoka 01 APR 2006
    31st IAAF World Cross Country Championships 74 12:13 Lausanne 29 MAR 2003
    LONG RACE
    RANK MARK WIND PLACE DATE
    33rd IAAF World Cross Country Championships 37 37:50 Saint-Galmier 20 MAR 2005


  • #36
    pconn062
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    Guys, gentle reminder as I don't want to stop what is an interesting discussion but drug speculation without proof is against the charter and not allowed. I've had to edit a few posts.


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  • #37
    Netwerk_Errer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Netwerk_Errer


    I'm being selective? I seem to be the only one semi-decently following the topic of the OP article which was solely based on track. Everyone knows Farah is a sh*t XC runner which is nearly every result you posted, his stride is way too bouncy to be efficient on mud or a soft surface. What exactly does his 1500m progression prove, it wasn't ever his focus event. I used his 5000m progression to prove he didn't come out of nowhere. His first ever 1500m been in 2003 proves just how little he cares about the distance. Here's a post from Renato Canova explaining why times don't tell the full story anyway:


    The post was called, How do you beat Farah?Wait until he gets old, a direct quote from Renato before after the 1500m in Monaco.


    Also, don't look at PB of this athletes like their "real" record. If Mo didn't run in Monaco, his PB could still be 3'33"98, and all this discussione couldn't happen.

    Komen could run well under 3'30" when at the top of his shape, and could run well under 27', but never had, of tried to have, the opportunity for running at his best event different from 3000 and 5000m.

    Athletics at top level is also a problem of money, and the appearances (which several years ago were very high) obliged top athletes to repeat always their best event.

    For giving an idea, Shaheen could have 60,000 USD for starting 3000 steeple for trying WR, and in the same meeting no more than 2,000 if wanted running 5000m. So, you can see something strange : his PB in 5000m is from 2003, beating El Guerrouj with 12'48", when his value was by far not the same of the period 2005-2006, when he could run very close the WR of Bekele.

    Don't think the real value of Mo is 12'53". He ran already 12'57" in 2010, when we worked together for some month in Iten, in Zurich, and now is very much stronger, after going to Salazar. To think can run near 12'40" is something reasonable, such as the possibility of running under 26'30" in 10000m.

    But 7'20", in my opinion, is the strongest record in middle distances. I don't know about the calculator of Ventolin, and normally I don't like to think at what athletes could do in the past, because I live in the present thinking of the future. But, because we speak about the Future of Mo, and not the past, I think the evaluation of Ventolin can be really interesting, also because Mo is, after Gebrselassie, the only athlete having a range so wide IN THE SAME PERIOD.

    Haile ran 3'31" winning World Indoor Ch when was WR holder of 5000 and 10000m, only after many years moved to marathon.

    Kenenisa could be the same : he ran only once 1500m at the end of a season, without too much shape and motivation, in 3'32"35, and coul run around 3'30" at the peak of his shape in the right period. However, they tried several times to face Komen's record, and never were able running very close 7'20". The same El Guerrouj.

    One my doubt is Mo has still to show his ability in running alone, against the watch and not against other competitors.

    And, when you look at a record, of course you have to run great part of the race alone.

    Personally, I don't think he can try any record BEFORE Moscow. May be can try something after, but, in the case of winning both the titles, he can go out of WCh nervously empty, and for trying a record you need to be at the top of your nervous energies.

    If Mo wants to try some record (specifically 10000m), the right season is the next. To prepare a full marathon for April doesn't mean is not possible to be at the top for 10000m at the end of August. It depends on his motivation, and on the choices of Salazar lookin at Rio 2016.

    Just because a guy hasn't run a time doesn't mean he isn't capable of running it. The progression of his 1500m times proves nothing, he quite possibly could have gone faster. You said it yourself, he ran that 1500m off 10/5k training just like he did for every other 1500 he ran. I would highly doubt he ever trained specifically for that distance. When I used the 5k progression, It was to show that Mo never made a huge breakthrough in his mid 20's. It was to show the potential was always there.

    It's also important that most of the results you posted are juxtaposed and don't show him running near his season best of the corresponding year. Yeah, the track championship results werent great pre-2009 but there is plenty of reasons why Farah only started to come really good in his mid-20's besides the one everyone is speculating on. You have a raw junior talent who doesn't end up going to college in America or being fed through the Kenyan and Ethiopian meat grinder and being pushed into an early peak or burnt out by the turn em and burn em attitude of those systems.

    All these things should be taking into consideration before putting someone's head on the chopping block. It's not quite as simple as, he improved so he must be doing something dodgy. How can you say without doubt that Farah's improvements are not down to the above reason or better training since 2009? You can't, you don't know but you jump to conclusions without even a hint of proof, now that is what I call truly selective.


  • #38
    Chivito550
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,697 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Netwerk_Errer wrote: »
    I'm being selective? I seem to be the only one semi-decently following the topic of the OP article which was solely based on track. Everyone knows Farah is a sh*t XC runner which is nearly every result you posted, his stride is way too bouncy to be efficient on mud or a soft surface. What exactly does his 1500m progression prove, it wasn't ever his focus event. I used his 5000m progression to prove he didn't come out of nowhere. His first ever 1500m been in 2003 proves just how little he cares about the distance. Here's a post from Renato Canova explaining why times don't tell the full story anyway:


    The post was called, How do you beat Farah?Wait until he gets old, a direct quote from Renato before after the 1500m in Monaco.




    Just because a guy hasn't run a time doesn't mean he isn't capable of running it. The progression of his 1500m times proves nothing, he quite possibly could have gone faster. You said it yourself, he ran that 1500m off 10/5k training just like he did for every other 1500 he ran. I would highly doubt he ever trained specifically for that distance. When I used the 5k progression, It was to show that Mo never made a huge breakthrough in his mid 20's. It was to show the potential was always there.

    It's also important that most of the results you posted are juxtaposed and don't show him running near his season best of the corresponding year. Yeah, the track championship results werent great pre-2009 but there is plenty of reasons why Farah only started to come really good in his mid-20's besides the one everyone is speculating on. You have a raw junior talent who doesn't end up going to college in America or being fed through the Kenyan and Ethiopian meat grinder and being pushed into an early peak or burnt out by the turn em and burn em attitude of those systems.

    All these things should be taking into consideration before putting someone's head on the chopping block. It's not quite as simple as, he improved so he must be doing something dodgy. How can you say without doubt that Farah's improvements are not down to the above reason or better training since 2009? You can't, you don't know but you jump to conclusions without even a hint of proof, now that is what I call truly selective.

    How did he develop such outrageous finishing speed at such a mature age?


  • #39
    TRR_the_turd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 928 ✭✭✭TRR_the_turd


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    How did he develop such outrageous finishing speed at such a mature age?

    Strength and conditioning according to Salazar.

    I don't like farah yet based on his championship performances you have to put him up there with the greats. By no means the greatest but up there with them. I'm laughing at some of the arguments above. Just because you weren't the greatest junior doesn't mean you can't become a great senior. The reverse is also true. We all know lots of super juniors who went onto do nothing. Maybe farah was training like an ass until he became a member of salazars group!!!


  • #40
    NiallG4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 264 ✭✭NiallG4


    TRR_the_turd wrote: »
    Strength and conditioning according to Salazar.

    I don't like farah yet based on his championship performances you have to put him up there with the greats. By no means the greatest but up there with them. I'm laughing at some of the arguments above. Just because you weren't the greatest junior doesn't mean you can't become a great senior. The reverse is also true. We all know lots of super juniors who went onto do nothing. Maybe farah was training like an ass until he became a member of salazars group!!!

    Name some of the greats who were not great juniors. When I mentioned his junior records I meant his 1500M times. I am not expecting a long list.


  • #41
    Calvin Johnson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 572 ✭✭✭Calvin Johnson


    A lot of you don't seem to like Farah - is there a reason why? Have you always disliked him or is it a recent thing?


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  • #42
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,557 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    NiallG4 wrote: »
    I think you have missed something. We have Irish junior athletes running comparable times to his junior times but I cant see them all of a sudden winning Olympic titles and running 3.28 for 1500M. Just my opinion. SNIP

    I don't see the relevance between what Juniors in Ireland today are running to what Mo ran aged 17/18. It's simple. Is it inconceivable that a 17 and 18 year old can improve by 63 seconds over 5000 metres in 10-11 years?


  • #43
    tang1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,121 ✭✭✭tang1


    Calvin Johnson wrote: »
    A lot of you don't seem to like Farah - is there a reason why? Have you always disliked him or is it a recent thing?

    Ask Andy Vernon!!!


  • #44
    Calvin Johnson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 572 ✭✭✭Calvin Johnson


    tang1 wrote: »
    Ask Andy Vernon!!!

    I saw their twitter thing. I agree Farah comes across very arrogant. There seemed to be a bit of tension when they came 1st and 2nd last summer.


  • #45
    tang1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,121 ✭✭✭tang1


    Calvin Johnson wrote: »
    I saw their twitter thing. I agree Farah comes across very arrogant. There seemed to be a bit of tension when they came 1st and 2nd last summer.

    In fairness, Vernon seems to be speak before he thinks on twitter. He had a similar row last year with Lyndsay Sharp over her winning a medal at the Europeans.


  • #46
    Chivito550
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,697 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Calvin Johnson wrote: »
    A lot of you don't seem to like Farah - is there a reason why? Have you always disliked him or is it a recent thing?

    I don't like him because of something he said to me in Moscow. I asked the Kenyan beside him in the press conference why nobody tries to push the pace early to try beat Farah rather than accept silver and bronze. He didn't really understand the question, hesitated, and then Mo butts in and says "he's Irish, that's why you can't understand". And then he has the cheek to cry racism last week with Andy Vernon!


  • #47
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,557 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    says "he's Irish, that's why you can't understand". And then he has the cheek to cry racism last week with Andy Vernon!

    Very poor form to stoop that low.


  • #48
    thirstywork2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭thirstywork2


    Farah was finishing down the field in BMC races and not even the top runner in the UK for years. He was living in a house with Mica Kogo amongst others for several years, he was eating, sleeping, living the Kenyan way of life and he did improve A LOT, from a 13.30's guy to a 13.10 guy. Suddenly after a few months with Salazar he is the world No. 1 by some distance and looks invincible? he has had every possible opportunity throughout his lifetime as an athlete, he has trained at altitude for years, he has never had a job, he has lived and breathed athletics, then suddenly he goes from somebody who struggles to make world finals to World No.1 Do I buy it, no.

    I watched him run some league track races a couple of years ago and he was killing himself to run 1.50/1.51, he's now doing that for the last 800m of a 5k.


  • #49
    Netwerk_Errer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Netwerk_Errer


    thirstywork2 wrote: »
    Farah was finishing down the field in BMC races and not even the top runner in the UK for years. He was living in a house with Mica Kogo amongst others for several years, he was eating, sleeping, living the Kenyan way of life and he did improve A LOT, from a 13.30's guy to a 13.10 guy. Suddenly after a few months with Salazar he is the world No. 1 by some distance and looks invincible? he has had every possible opportunity throughout his lifetime as an athlete, he has trained at altitude for years, he has never had a job, he has lived and breathed athletics, then suddenly he goes from somebody who struggles to make world finals to World No.1 Do I buy it, no.

    I watched him run some league track races a couple of years ago and he was killing himself to run 1.50/1.51, he's now doing that for the last 800m of a 5k.

    Mo ran 12:57 6 months before joining Salazar, there's a lot of truth bending going in this thread. You make it sound like he went to Salazar running 13:10 and a few months later, he was a worldbeater which is false. Mo has never run 1:50/1:51 gor the last 800m of a 5k.

    About his 800m time where he struggled to run 800 in 1.50/1.51. His PR was run in 2003. He ran 1:48.69 in Eton at 20y/o


  • #50
    Ghost in Cratloe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40 ✭Ghost in Cratloe


    Netwerk_Errer wrote: »
    Mo ran 12:57 6 months before joining Salazar, there's a lot of truth bending going in this thread. You make it sound like he went to Salazar running 13:10 and a few months later, he was a worldbeater which is false. Mo has never run 1:50/1:51 gor the last 800m of a 5k.

    About his 800m time where he struggled to run 800 in 1.50/1.51. His PR was run in 2003. He ran 1:48.69 in Eton at 20y/o

    For a woman/man that likes her/his stats you may want to get the stopwatch out and replay the last 800 of the 2013 World championship 5000 in Moscow. Tick Tock.


  • #51
    NiallG4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 264 ✭✭NiallG4


    Netwerk_Errer wrote: »
    Mo ran 12:57 6 months before joining Salazar, there's a lot of truth bending going in this thread. You make it sound like he went to Salazar running 13:10 and a few months later, he was a worldbeater which is false. Mo has never run 1:50/1:51 gor the last 800m of a 5k.

    About his 800m time where he struggled to run 800 in 1.50/1.51. His PR was run in 2003. He ran 1:48.69 in Eton at 20y/o

    And I quote
    "I worked harder this year than last year," he added. "My split of 1min 51sec for the last 800m shows that. The guys who finished second and third could win any championships. They could have beaten me in London."

    Maybe you can now change your condescending tone. We all have our own opinions. Maybe you think a guy closing a 5K with a 1.51 800M is just nice progression but I for one don't buy it.


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  • #52
    Netwerk_Errer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Netwerk_Errer


    Ghost in Cratloe wrote: »
    For a woman/man that likes her/his stats you may want to get the stopwatch out and replay the last 800 of the 2013 World championship 5000 in Moscow. Tick Tock.

    My bad! Can't know it all!

    I knew you'd be waiting in the shadows for a slipup.

    Point on the 800m speed still stands though.


  • #53
    Netwerk_Errer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Netwerk_Errer


    NiallG4 wrote: »
    And I quote
    "I worked harder this year than last year," he added. "My split of 1min 51sec for the last 800m shows that. The guys who finished second and third could win any championships. They could have beaten me in London."

    Maybe you can now change your condescending tone. We all have our own opinions. Maybe you think a guy closing a 5K with a 1.51 800M is just nice progression but I for one don't buy it.

    How is my tone condescending? I merely pointed out that ye were making false claims and countering which was what a debate is about in my opinion.

    Yeah, it's all just our opinions which will all be different. I was just saying that there can be more to progression than the obvious and people tend to jump on the bandwagon of doping too quickly and without any other consideration. Judging whether someone is doping or not by performance gains alone is critcally flawed.

    Everyone jumps on Farah about that but there have been far more spectacular performances over history in athletics then anything Mo has done. A bit of skepticism is good but making claims on the back of scepticism alone has no standing.


  • #54
    NiallG4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 264 ✭✭NiallG4


    Netwerk_Errer wrote: »
    How is my tone condescending? I merely pointed out that ye were making false claims and countering which was what a debate is about in my opinion.

    Yeah, it's all just our opinions which will all be different. I was just saying that there can be more to progression than the obvious and people tend to jump on the bandwagon of doping too quickly and without any other consideration. Judging whether someone is doping or not by performance gains alone is critcally flawed.

    Everyone jumps on Farah about that but there have been far more spectacular performances over history in athletics then anything Mo has done. A bit of skepticism is good but making claims on the back of scepticism alone has no standing.

    Fair enough. We will agree to differ. I would be very confident in my opinion but you seem confident in yours and that's good. The worst part of this is we will probably never know. Lets not forget Lance never failed a test.


  • #55
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    pconn062 wrote: »
    Guys, gentle reminder as I don't want to stop what is an interesting discussion but drug speculation without proof is against the charter and not allowed. I've had to edit a few posts.

    And here is a link to the forum charter for those that may have missed it:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055254160


  • #56
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,557 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Bit too optimistic? EL G thinks Mo has it in him!

    https://twitter.com/ElguerroujHicha

    Congratulation @Mo_Farah for the 2miles WR,that's amazing.Seeing you running,I believe you can break the mile as well.


  • #57
    rom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,148 ✭✭✭rom


    Looks like a cracking race on Sunday morning.

    Live stream is 11:30am UTC

    http://www.letsrun.com/news/2015/03/mo-farah-silences-the-critics-and-takes-on-six-sub-6000-men-eyeing-a-100000-world-record-bonus-at-sundays-lisbon-half-marathon/


  • #58
    NetwerkErrer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭NetwerkErrer


    rom wrote: »
    Looks like a cracking race on Sunday morning.

    Live stream is 11:30am UTC

    There's a thread already down a few pages rom. Can't link because of my postcount.

    It's supposed to lash rain on Sunday and if that happens, nobody will be chasing a WR. Should be interesting to see the race strategy though. If kibet and co go out at world record pace, Mo has to go with them in my opinion.

    He said all he wants to do is run under 60. Hopefully, the weather is good because IMO, Kibet has a serious chance of challenging the world record.


  • #59
    rom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,148 ✭✭✭rom


    NetwerkErrer wrote: »
    There's a thread already down a few pages rom. Can't link because of my postcount.

    It's supposed to lash rain on Sunday and if that happens, nobody will be chasing a WR. Should be interesting to see the race strategy though. If kibet and co go out at world record pace, Mo has to go with them in my opinion.

    He said all he wants to do is run under 60. Hopefully, the weather is good because IMO, Kibet has a serious chance of challenging the world record.

    Don't know how I missed it. Must stop this working lark :)


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