Do the Irish have an inferiority complex?

dxhound2005 · 24-02-2015 01:27AM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

And yet the 1.2 billion or so other catholics and a billion or so other christians don't seem to have that inferiority complex.

( although you quite clearly feel superior).

No quite simply. We don't for sure have a superiority complex - there's no tradition of feeling superior to our neighbours, there are no English jokes, and we've internalised a general dislike of our own culture.

You may have, I haven't.

The_Valeyard · 24-02-2015 01:31AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Some people think the No Irish Need Apply is an urban myth. Can you prove it ever happened?

http://www.irishcentral.com/roots/no-such-thing-as-no-irish-need-apply-signs-argues-history-professor-211727201-237597051.html

The fact that Irish vividly "remember" NINA signs is a curious historical puzzle. There are no contemporary or retrospective accounts of a specific sign at a specific location. No particular business enterprise is named as a culprit. No historian, archivist, or museum curator has ever located one ; no photograph or drawing exists.

Here are some examples I have found:

New York Times, 1854

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NINA-nyt.JPG#mw-jump-to-license

Evening Post

17 July 1828, New-York (NY) Evening Post, pg. 3, col. 1 ad:
WANTED a woman to cook, wash, and iron, for a small private family. One who understands her business, and can come well recommended, will find a good and steady place by applying at 297 1/2 Broadway.
N. B.—No Irish need apply.

12 July 1830, New-York (NY) Morning Herald, pg. 3, col. 3:
“NO IRISH NEED APPLY.”—Several advertisements with this insulting appendage have been from time to time left on our hook for insertion, but which we rejected with disdain for their authors. If one Irish servant maid commits a fault, is that a reason that all other Irish girls must be bad? Surely not. Those who write those illiberal and foolish advertisements ought to remember thatthe misconduct of a few can afford no ground for insulting a whole nation; and a nation like Ireland—renowned for the virtues of her females, and the genius and generosity of her sons. That American cannot be patriotic who would deliberately offer an insult to the country of General Montgomery and Commodore barry. When we were making the great struggle for our liberties, were we not nobly assisted by IRISHMEN?

The New Monthly Magazine
1836
Pg. 358:
Advertisements frequently run in these terms:—“Wanted. so and so.—No Irish need apply.” But the usual phraseology is — “Wanted, an English or American,” &c. Notwithstanding this, the Irish constitute the great mass of domestic servants, and without them I cannot conceive what could be done.

18 May 1841, New-York (NY) Tribune, pg. 3, col. 4 ad:
WANTED—An America Woman to do the general housework of a small family. (...) No Irish need apply.

10 November 1854, New York (NY) Times, pg. 5 classified ad:
GIRL WANTED—In a small private family—a young ril, 14 or 15 years old, either American or German, to take care of a young child. She must have good references. Wages $3 a month. No Irish need apply. Call at No. 89 McDougal St.

Eugene Norman · 24-02-2015 01:33AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Some people think the No Irish Need Apply is an urban myth. Can you prove it ever happened?

http://www.irishcentral.com/roots/no-such-thing-as-no-irish-need-apply-signs-argues-history-professor-211727201-237597051.html

The fact that Irish vividly "remember" NINA signs is a curious historical puzzle. There are no contemporary or retrospective accounts of a specific sign at a specific location. No particular business enterprise is named as a culprit. No historian, archivist, or museum curator has ever located one ; no photograph or drawing exists.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Irish_Need_Apply#/media/File:NINA-nyt.JPG

dxhound2005 · 24-02-2015 01:46AM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Here are some examples I have found:

New York Times, 1854

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NINA-nyt.JPG#mw-jump-to-license

Evening Post

17 July 1828, New-York (NY) Evening Post, pg. 3, col. 1 ad:
WANTED a woman to cook, wash, and iron, for a small private family. One who understands her business, and can come well recommended, will find a good and steady place by applying at 297 1/2 Broadway.
N. B.—No Irish need apply.

12 July 1830, New-York (NY) Morning Herald, pg. 3, col. 3:
“NO IRISH NEED APPLY.”—Several advertisements with this insulting appendage have been from time to time left on our hook for insertion, but which we rejected with disdain for their authors. If one Irish servant maid commits a fault, is that a reason that all other Irish girls must be bad? Surely not. Those who write those illiberal and foolish advertisements ought to remember thatthe misconduct of a few can afford no ground for insulting a whole nation; and a nation like Ireland—renowned for the virtues of her females, and the genius and generosity of her sons. That American cannot be patriotic who would deliberately offer an insult to the country of General Montgomery and Commodore barry. When we were making the great struggle for our liberties, were we not nobly assisted by IRISHMEN?

The New Monthly Magazine
1836
Pg. 358:
Advertisements frequently run in these terms:—“Wanted. so and so.—No Irish need apply.” But the usual phraseology is — “Wanted, an English or American,” &c. Notwithstanding this, the Irish constitute the great mass of domestic servants, and without them I cannot conceive what could be done.

18 May 1841, New-York (NY) Tribune, pg. 3, col. 4 ad:
WANTED—An America Woman to do the general housework of a small family. (...) No Irish need apply.

10 November 1854, New York (NY) Times, pg. 5 classified ad:
GIRL WANTED—In a small private family—a young ril, 14 or 15 years old, either American or German, to take care of a young child. She must have good references. Wages $3 a month. No Irish need apply. Call at No. 89 McDougal St.

They all seem to be from families seeking servants and are small ads not signs placed by employers at their factories or shops. Two of these are mentioned in the article I posted. There seem to be no proof of any employers putting up NINA signs.

Tombi! · 24-02-2015 01:48AM

You're asking for two different things; NINA existed. If it iexisted as a sign, that's a differnet story.

The_Valeyard · 24-02-2015 01:48AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They all seem to be from families seeking servants and are small ads not signs placed by employers at their factories or shops. Two of these are mentioned in the article I posted. There seem to be no proof of any employers putting up NINA signs.

I would count a family offering a wage for a servant is an employer. Servant was a career job back then.

Kiwi in IE · 24-02-2015 01:49AM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

No quite simply. We don't for sure have a superiority complex - there's no tradition of feeling superior to our neighbours, there are no English jokes, and we've internalised a general dislike of our own culture.

Well in fairness I'm not suprised if there is an internalised dislike of the religious aspect of the culture. Along with it has come a history of socially conservative policy that has held the country back. Past laws on contraception, married women working outside the home and divorce, the current abortion laws and religious state schools are backward compared to the rest of the first world quite frankly. I can't think what else would account for the supposed inferiority complex, aside from the religious bollocks it is a great country.

The Backwards Man · 24-02-2015 01:51AM

bodice ripper wrote: »

I got elastic bands keeping my shoes on
Got those swollen hand blues.

But then, I am not in Ireland so it may not be relevant.

That's cause you got fading roots

GalwayGuitar · 24-02-2015 01:53AM

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I think we do. It's in our psyche to feel inferior to others. We feel inferior to the more powerful British for one. Most Irish people have an inferiority complex, me included, as much as I hate to admit it. We are second class citizens. We 'make do' with what we have.

It might have something to do with the church. I think it's changing but I resent it. It's held me back in life.

What are you on about? If you feel inferior that's your issue. I'm proud of this country.

bodice ripper · 24-02-2015 01:56AM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

That's cause you got fading roots

The inevitable pin hole burns.

Eugene Norman · 24-02-2015 01:56AM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Well in fairness I'm not suprised if there is an internalised dislike of the religious aspect of the culture. Along with it has come a history of socially conservative policy that has held the country back. Past laws on contraception, married women working outside the home and divorce, the current abortion laws and religious state schools are backward compared to the rest of the first world quite frankly. I can't think what else would account for the supposed inferiority complex, aside from the religious bollocks it is a great country.

Let's not go overboard.

ComfortKid · 24-02-2015 02:03AM

darkdubh wrote:

Well at least we realised that cricket is **** unlike most former British colonies.We have that to be thankful for.

And we still bet them at it!

jank · 24-02-2015 02:50AM

800 years, rabble rabble rabble. Yes, we do but I think we are getting better.

Minderbinder · 24-02-2015 07:20AM

personally i've always felt quite intimidated speaking to british and americans. they seem a lot better at expressing themselves and more coherent than irish people. they also have an air of confidence in what they're saying and don't sit on the fence even in the company of strangers or foreigners. irish people don't have the same belief in themselves. that's why outsiders like us but don't respect us. (because we're not a threat)

TheBeardedLady · 24-02-2015 07:33AM

I'd say we do. No harm acknowledging our history might've had some impact on the national psyche. Discounting it with "rabble rabble" comments doesn't help.

Fratton Fred · 24-02-2015 11:35AM

darkdubh wrote: »

Well at least we realised that cricket is **** unlike most former British colonies.We have that to be thankful for.

It's probably the fastest growing sport in Ireland at the moment.

jimgoose · 24-02-2015 11:40AM

We're all basically Spailpíns and tinkers without land, dancing around a campfire like naked, devil-worshipping hussies. God made the world, but seaweed made that field, biy.

Robsweezie · 24-02-2015 01:44PM

I think of Ireland as the scruffy little brother of the more sophisticated UK, the runt of the family who is yet to prove himself living In the shadow of its older, mature European countries with their good looks and college diplomas.

24-02-2015 01:48PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It's probably the fastest growing sport in Ireland at the moment.

Coming from a very low base though, mainly consisting of protestants, immigrants from Britian / former British colonies and the wealthy 'old money' type of catholics. :pac:

Fratton Fred · 24-02-2015 02:15PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Coming from a very low base though, mainly consisting of protestants, immigrants from Britian / former British colonies and the wealthy 'old money' type of catholics. :pac:

So is Martin McGuinness a protestant, an immigrant or old money Catholic type?

Day Lewin · 24-02-2015 02:28PM

I hate the collective "we". YOU may, but I don't.

Some people may feel inferior to the British, - heaven knows why - but please don't include every citizen in that blanket judgment. The British are a wonderful nation, no doubt about it: eccentric, distant, wonderful landscapes, awful food, and of course the best language in the world. But they got that way partly by grinding the faces of the poor in brutally occupied territories, (including ours)

I mean, all communities have things to celebrate and things to regret. And I think the Irish are pretty cool too.
Best wit in the world, bar none, for one. And people sing and know songs, and invite other people to their homes, and - oh - lots of stuff.

So no collective whinging, please: I don't want to be a member of your "we".

jimgoose · 24-02-2015 02:53PM

Robsweezie wrote: »

I think of Ireland as the scruffy little brother of the more sophisticated UK, the runt of the family who is yet to prove himself living In the shadow of its older, mature European countries with their good looks and college diplomas.

I like to think of Ireland as Norman Wisdom to England's Mr. Grims-daaaaale!!

ardmacha · 24-02-2015 02:54PM

I think we have an inferiority complex, but not a very good one.

cruasder777 · 24-02-2015 02:57PM

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I think we do. It's in our psyche to feel inferior to others. We feel inferior to the more powerful British for one. Most Irish people have an inferiority complex, me included, as much as I hate to admit it. We are second class citizens. We 'make do' with what we have.

It might have something to do with the church. I think it's changing but I resent it. It's held me back in life.

Its more complex. Britain has been a spectacularly successful nation, nations and peoples compare with the ones next door. Being a small country and having a neighbor which has conquered most of the world, invented many of the inventions etc, is a tough one.

Be easier to be next to somewhere like the Baltics or Eastern Europe.

24-02-2015 03:49PM

I think it might be slightly true at home, but counterbalanced by a superiority complex abroad (sure, everyone loves the Irish!).

cruasder777 · 24-02-2015 04:21PM

Minderbinder wrote: »

personally i've always felt quite intimidated speaking to british and americans. they seem a lot better at expressing themselves and more coherent than irish people. they also have an air of confidence in what they're saying and don't sit on the fence even in the company of strangers or foreigners. irish people don't have the same belief in themselves. that's why outsiders like us but don't respect us. (because we're not a threat)

You are generalising.

jimgoose · 24-02-2015 04:22PM

cruasder777 wrote: »

You are generalising.

Probably from Monaghan:

You clogged the feet of my boyhood
And I believed that my stumble
Had the poise and stride of Apollo
And his voice my thick-tongued mumble.

Day Lewin · 24-02-2015 05:14PM

Well of course...is it possible that the Monaghese have an inferioriity complex? Or a lack of some important mineral in the local diet?
Plenty of stony grey soil, of course: but is soil eevrything? What about joie-de-vivre? Do they speak any French in Monaghan?

jimgoose · 24-02-2015 05:19PM

katemarch wrote: »

Well of course...is it possible that the Monaghese have an inferioriity complex? Or a lack of some important mineral in the local diet?
Plenty of stony grey soil, of course: but is soil eevrything? What about joie-de-vivre? Do they speak any French in Monaghan?

Just about. The same fella also gives us:

They laughed at one I loved -
The triangular hill that hung
Under the Big Forth. They said
That I was bounded by the whitethorn hedges
Of the little farm and did not know the world.
But I knew that love's doorway to life
Is the same doorway everywhere.

Ashamed of what I loved
I flung her from me and called her a ditch
Although she was smiling at me with violets.

But now I am back in her briary arms;
The dew of an Indian Summer morning lies
On bleached potato-stalks -
What age am I?

I do not know what age I am,
I am no mortal age;
I know nothing of women,
Nothing of cities,
I cannot die
Unless I walk outside these whitethorn hedges.

Day Lewin · 24-02-2015 05:23PM

Ar, luvly rymin'.

Those Monaghese knows a thing or two 'bout ditches, violets an' all, Aaar.

Do the Irish have an inferiority complex?

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