Laws Question? Ask here!

.ak · 23-02-2015 04:11PM

Karl Stein wrote: »

When I was watching the Munster v Scarlets game on Saturday afternoon I couldn't help but think the Scarlets quick anticipatory rush up could be easily exploited by a dummy-pass by the scrum-half quickly followed by a genuine pass to get penalties for offside.

Is there some sort of rule that prevents this play?

Wait, do you mean the scrumhalf pretends to pick the ball up and pass it? If so yes, there is actually a rule against this. Scrumhalf must not dummy pass without the ball.

EDIT: Oops seen Losty already answered that.

rje66 · 25-02-2015 11:04PM

padser wrote: »

You must add to it "when an offside line is created" and specify that "offside lines are created when a tackle is made or a kick is taken".

.

No offside at a tackle just a gate.
So a tackle occurs with no ruck formed and red nine throws out a pass from the tackle, defending blue player retreating from previous phase takes pass from red nine , it's play on as it's deemed open play.
It's one of those ones that looks wrong but isn't.

Swan Curry · 28-02-2015 04:05PM

I was watching a scrum in the Scotland-Italy match that went near the touchline, and a thought came to me. What happens if a scrum goes over the touchline with the ball still in the scrum?

Losty Dublin · 28-02-2015 04:09PM

Swan Curry wrote: »

I was watching a scrum in the Scotland-Italy match that went near the touchline, and a thought came to me. What happens if a scrum goes over the touchline with the ball still in the scrum?

The scrum is reset again in this circumstance.

Just to add to this. A scrum shouldn't be moving sideways to allow this to happen bar one off occasions like the scrum in this game. If it's happening more than once then penalties need to be awarded.

Unless your name is Ceorge Glancy

Whosthis · 28-02-2015 04:38PM

Italy's try under the posts just before half time. The TMO declared that it was a single movement. The try scorer attempts to ground the ball on the inside of the padding, moves around the front of the padding and grounds the ball on the outside of the padding. He may have also switched hands and I believe at least one knee was on the ground from the beginning. how was this deemed a single movement? Am I missing something?

sydthebeat · 28-02-2015 05:26PM

Whosthis wrote: »

Italy's try under the posts just before half time. The TMO declared that it was a single movement. The try scorer attempts to ground the ball on the inside of the padding, moves around the front of the padding and grounds the ball on the outside of the padding. He may have also switched hands and I believe at least one knee was on the ground from the beginning. how was this deemed a single movement? Am I missing something?

That comes down to opinion.

Personally I'd agree with it

Taco Corp · 04-03-2015 10:28PM

would someone be able to define what open play is and what the offside rule is in open play?

locum-motion · 05-03-2015 01:00AM

Taco Corp wrote: »

would someone be able to define what open play is...

When the ball is in play but there isn't a scrum, lineout, ruck, maul or tackle happening, and the ball hasn't just been kicked. EDIT: And a knock on hasn't just occurred!

Taco Corp wrote: »

...and what the offside rule is in open play?

Simple. There is none.

blackwhite · 05-03-2015 08:36AM

locum-motion wrote: »

When the ball is in play but there isn't a scrum, lineout, ruck, maul or tackle happening, and the ball hasn't just been kicked.

Simple. There is none.

There is one.

After a knock-on, a teammate of the player who knocked on is in an offside position if they are in front of the knock on.

locum-motion · 05-03-2015 09:49AM

blackwhite wrote: »

There is one.

After a knock-on, a teammate of the player who knocked on is in an offside position if they are in front of the knock on.

Edited my post to reflect this.

lalababa · 05-03-2015 10:06AM

Is the Ref a 'blade of grass'?

WMitty · 05-03-2015 05:33PM

Lineout Q. Team A win the ball. On returning to ground the catcher retains possession and the lifters bind on. Team B initially withdraw but on seeing the catcher keeping the ball they send in ONE player to tackle. On tacking contact the catcher transfers the ball. Can the tackler now be pinged for collapsing a maul?

sydthebeat · 05-03-2015 06:14PM

WMitty wrote: »

Lineout Q. Team A win the ball. On returning to ground the catcher retains possession and the lifters bind on. Team B initially withdraw but on seeing the catcher keeping the ball they send in ONE player to tackle. On tacking contact the catcher transfers the ball. Can the tackler now be pinged for collapsing a maul?

this very thing happened last sunday and there was an article written about it.

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-england-maul-1968803-Mar2015/

phog · 05-03-2015 06:21PM

Another LO question.

Team A take the ball and form a maul with Team B, the stay within the 5m and 15m lines and maul. How far can they maul go before the lo is deemed to be over and before players not involved in the LO can join in? Could they go the lenght of the field and score without the LO being called over?

sydthebeat · 05-03-2015 06:38PM

phog wrote: »

Another LO question.

Team A take the ball and form a maul with Team B, the stay within the 5m and 15m lines and maul. How far can they maul go before the lo is deemed to be over and before players not involved in the LO can join in? Could they go the lenght of the field and score without the LO being called over?

Lineout ends.
When a ruck or maul develops in a lineout, and all the feet of all the players in the ruck or maul move beyond the line of touch, the lineout ends.

doesnt this cover it?

locum-motion · 05-03-2015 10:28PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

doesnt this cover it?

Yes, it does.

05-03-2015 10:47PM

locum-motion wrote: »

Simple. There is none.

(for context, the question was about offside in open play)

Of course there is. If your team is in possession of the ball you have to stay behind the ball/ball carrier or else you're offside.

locum-motion · 05-03-2015 11:32PM

Taco Corp wrote: »

would someone be able to define what open play is and what the offside rule is in open play?

Here's a fuller answer to that question.

Offside lines in rugby come and go very quickly, and at different times different players can have different offside lines applying to them. In most cases, they run parallel to the try lines, but at line out time there are some offside lines that are parallel to the touchlines.

For example:

1. At kick off:

The kicker's team have to be behind the ball. (Note: NOT behind the halfway line; the kicker may opt to retreat a little. His teammates must retreat too.)
The receiving team must be at least 10m away from the halfway line. (Their offside line doesn't move forward if the kicker opts to retreat.)
As soon as the ball has been kicked, both of these offside lines vanish.

2. At a tackle:

Tackler must try to roll away far enough not to prevent others playing the ball; once he has done so, he may get up and becomes subject to the same offside line as his teammates.
Tackled player must play, pass or place the ball, and he may then get up; once he has done so, he becomes subject to the same offside line as his teammates.
The offside line runs through the ball.
When someone picks up the ball, the offside line vanishes.

3. At a scrum:

One player not in the scrum may be at the side of it. For that player, on the team that doesn't have the ball at its feet, the offside line runs through the ball as long as he stays on that side of the scrum. If he opts to nip round the other side, he becomes subject to the same line as the rest of his team. (On the team that does have the ball at their feet, for that player, I'm not sure if there actually is one, but I suppose there must be.)
Players in the scrum must remain in it. If they opt to leave, then they become subject to the same line as the rest of the team. (Think this law may have changed - for U19s at least)
For everyone else, the offside line runs through the back of the hindmost foot of their teammates who are in the scrum.
When the scrum ends, the offside lines vanish.

4. At the lineout:

One man from throwing team outside the touchline at the line of touch. One man from other team is allowed in a 5m square area with a corner at the same point that I just mentioned.
Players from both teams who are in the lineout must be between the 5- and 15-metre lines, and 0.5m their own side of the line of touch.
One player from each team may be inside a 10m square, between the 5- and 10-metre lines on their own side of the line of touch.
For everyone else, the offside line is 10m away from the line of touch.
When the lineout ends, the offside lines vanish.

5. At a ruck or maul:

For anyone not in the ruck or maul, the offside line runs through the back of the hindmost foot of their teammates who are in the ruck or maul.
Additionally, anyone wishing to join the ruck or maul must come in through 'the gate'. This is a part of the offside line that is as wide as the ruck or maul is.
When the ruck or maul ends, the offside lines vanish.

6. When a kick happens:

For the receiving team, there is no offside line.
For the kicking team, the kicker is de facto onside and remains so even if he advances.
His teammates behind him when he kicks, are onside and remain so even when they advance.
Any other teammates are actually in an offside position, but as long as they're retreating and not interfering with play, they haven't committed an offense to be pinged for yet. For these players, the offside line runs through the forward foot of the onside player closest to the opposition's tryline. This offside line moves as fast as that player moves.

7. When a knock-on happens, and advantage is being played:

For the offending team, the offside line is where the knock on happened.

8. In all cases above, if the offside line would be behind the players own tryline, then the tryline becomes the offside line instead.

9. There's a couple of other situations I didn't include, like 22 dropouts & penalty kicks, for example.

At all other times (unless there's something I've forgotten*), it is "open play", and there is no offside line.

* Pleeeeeease, let me know what I've forgotten!

05-03-2015 11:59PM

There is a whole numbered law about offside in general play, law 11. Look it up please.

You've left out some detail on the kicking bit above too, if your teammate kicks and you're in front of him the 10m rule applies.

Losty Dublin · 06-03-2015 12:25AM

To add......

locum-motion wrote: »

3. At a scrum:
One player not in the scrum may be at the side of it. For that player, on the team that doesn't have the ball at its feet, the offside line runs through the ball as long as he stays on that side of the scrum. If he opts to nip round the other side, he becomes subject to the same line as the rest of his team. (On the team that does have the ball at their feet, for that player, I'm not sure if there actually is one, but I suppose there must be.)

Players in the scrum must remain in it. If they opt to leave, then they become subject to the same line as the rest of the team. (Think this law may have changed - for U19s at least)

For everyone else, the offside line runs through the back of the hindmost foot of their teammates who are in the scrum.

When the scrum ends, the offside lines vanish.

There are actually five offside lines at the scrum!!

Two are formed 5 metres behind the hindmost foot of the scrums. These apply to all players who are not in the scrum.

One is formed on the ball and applies to the scrum half of the team who win the ball in the scrum. Both feet of the scrum half cannot be in front of the ball while it is the scrum.

Two are formed on the rearmost foot of the scrum. These apply to the scrum halves only; neither player can go beyond this line or have both feet in front of the ball during the scrum.

For the record, the ball can only be fed in from the left hand side of the scrum. Both scrum halves must be on this side. The team not putting in don't have to send up a SH. If they don't then the SH must fall back 5 metres with his team. Players who form the scrum aren't offside while bound during the scrum.

locum-motion wrote: »

4. At the lineout:

[*]For everyone else, the offside line is 10m away from the line of touch.
[*]When the lineout ends, the offside lines vanish.
[/LIST]

At a ruck or maul formed from a line out, the rearmost foot of the loose scrum becomes the offside line for those players approaching same. The other offside's at line out still apply and players not involved at the line out must remain 10 metres back. Until the ruck/maul ends or the rearmost foot of same crosses the line of touch, the line out offside lines still apply.

Easy to see how it is so confusing to a bystander or even a player!!

Dave_The_Sheep · 06-03-2015 10:06AM

Tyler Flaky Manatee wrote: »

You've left out some detail on the kicking bit above too, if your teammate kicks and you're in front of him the 10m rule applies.

This was one I didn't know about. I thought that once the kicker passed you, you were onside. Never knew you had to retreat 10m as well.

padser · 06-03-2015 10:50AM

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

This was one I didn't know about. I thought that once the kicker passed you, you were onside. Never knew you had to retreat 10m as well.

I didn't know that either. Is it definitely true?

.ak · 06-03-2015 10:54AM

Yes it's true. Someone was pinged for it over the weekend, can't remember was it in our game?

06-03-2015 11:16AM

If you're in front of the kicker the law states you have to be seen to retreat 10m. If you don't you're offside. In reality a lot of refs will allow some leeway, I can imagine it's very hard to police tbh when you've 10 players to watch.

Swiwi. · 06-03-2015 01:06PM

Tyler Flaky Manatee wrote: »

If you're in front of the kicker the law states you have to be seen to retreat 10m. If you don't you're offside. In reality a lot of refs will allow some leeway, I can imagine it's very hard to police tbh when you've 10 players to watch.

My understanding is that you must retreat but that once the kicker (or someone behind the kicker at the moment of the kick) goes in front of you you are back onside. In the weekend POC (I think) never made the effort to retreat hence pinged for offside.

Losty Dublin · 06-03-2015 03:07PM

Swiwi. wrote: »

My understanding is that you must retreat but that once the kicker (or someone behind the kicker at the moment of the kick) goes in front of you you are back onside. In the weekend POC (I think) never made the effort to retreat hence pinged for offside.

Here's a tip for props players who need to catch their breath mid gam.

When a kick goes up, shout "Stay onside." really loudly. Everybody then stands still as they haven't a clue about the offside law here and they are afraid to move in case they get pinged. As such, nothing will happen and it gives you vital oxygen time for about 10 seconds without fouling up :pac:

Quin_Dub · 06-03-2015 03:23PM

Swiwi. wrote: »

My understanding is that you must retreat but that once the kicker (or someone behind the kicker at the moment of the kick) goes in front of you you are back onside. In the weekend POC (I think) never made the effort to retreat hence pinged for offside.

Not quite.....

I actually had a long discussion with Peter Fitzgibbon a while back at a referees training session on this topic.** What he told me was this..

If you are more than 10m from the catcher/where the ball lands, then you can stand still and be put onside by the kicker or someone who was behind the kicker when he kicked..

You can also be put onside by the catcher , once he moves more than 5m.

if you are inside that 10m zone , you must retreat no matter what else happens..

** Because I'd been "approached" (screamed and shouted at) by the management of a team after a match that I had penalised for offside in this manner (inside the 10m) at a crucial moment in a game and took the opportunity to ask a real ref if I'd been right...

rje66 · 06-03-2015 03:34PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Not quite.....

I actually had a long discussion with Peter Fitzgibbon a while back at a referees training session on this topic. What he told me was this..

If you are more than 10m from the catcher/where the ball lands, then you can stand still and be put onside by the kicker or someone who was behind the kicker when he kicked..

You can also be put onside by the catcher , once he moves more than 5m.OR PASSES THE BALL

if you are inside that 10m zone , you must retreat no matter what else happens YES, UNDER 10M YOU CANNOT BE PUT ONSIDE BY THE ACTIONS OF THE CATCHER..

also WRT players who are off side in front of kicker , if they and not complying with law prior to kick and they then prevent a QT, they are liable to penalty

Swiwi. · 06-03-2015 03:53PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Not quite.....

I actually had a long discussion with Peter Fitzgibbon a while back at a referees training session on this topic.** What he told me was this..

If you are more than 10m from the catcher/where the ball lands, then you can stand still and be put onside by the kicker or someone who was behind the kicker when he kicked..

You can also be put onside by the catcher , once he moves more than 5m.

if you are inside that 10m zone , you must retreat no matter what else happens..

** Because I'd been "approached" (screamed and shouted at) by the management of a team after a match that I had penalised for offside in this manner (inside the 10m) at a crucial moment in a game and took the opportunity to ask a real ref if I'd been right...

Hmmm.

Law 11.4b

While moving away, the offside player cannot be put onside by any action of the opposing team. However, before the player has moved the full 10 metres, the player can be put onside by any onside team-mate who runs in front of the player.

Think I might be right actually.

Quin_Dub · 06-03-2015 04:33PM

Swiwi. wrote: »

Hmmm.

Law 11.4b

While moving away, the offside player cannot be put onside by any action of the opposing team. However, before the player has moved the full 10 metres, the player can be put onside by any onside team-mate who runs in front of the player.

Think I might be right actually.

You need to look at all of Law 11..

11.4 covers "inside the 10m" area , basically inside the 10m , no action taken by anybody other than you can put you onside - The only option available is for you to retreat beyond 10m.

However , outside the 10m zone , 11.2 and 11.3 apply and you can be put onside in a variety of ways, there is also no specific obligation to retreat as long as you are not interfering with play.

11.2 Being put onside by the action of a team-mate

In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by actions of that player or of team mates:
(a) Action by the player. When the offside player runs behind the team-mate who last kicked, touched or carried the ball, the player is put onside.
(b) Action by the ball carrier. When a team-mate carrying the ball runs in front of the offside player, that player is put onside.
(c) Action by the kicker or other onside player. When the kicker, or team-mate who was level with or behind the kicker when (or after) the ball was kicked, runs in front of the offside player, the player is put onside. When running forward, the team-mate may be in touch or touch-in-goal, but that team-mate must return to the playing area to put the player onside.

11.3 Being put onside by opponents

In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by an action of the opposing team. These three ways do not apply to a player who is offside under the 10-Metre Law.

(a) Runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball runs 5 metres, the offside player is put onside.

(b) Kicks or passes. When an opponent kicks or passes the ball, the offside player is put onside.

(c) Intentionally touches ball. When an opponent intentionally touches the ball but does not catch it, the offside player is put onside.

Laws Question? Ask here!

Comments