Laws Question? Ask here!

Podge_irl

.ak wrote: »

That's interesting one. Last time I remember somebody getting penalized off the pitch was in a HEC game last season, a player in the sin bin chucked the ball out of play and Rolland issued a red card and sent him off.

Where was the penalty for that awarded?

He had already warned them not to do it after the first time too. Braindead stuff - though I think it was a sub. Don't recall them playing with 14 men afterwards.

tolosenc

Podge_irl wrote: »

He had already warned them not to do it after the first time too. Braindead stuff - though I think it was a sub. Don't recall them playing with 14 men afterwards.

Was it not a water boy?

Podge_irl

tolosenc wrote: »

Was it not a water boy?

I thought it was the physio actually, but I might be getting confused between the first time Rollers admonished them and the time someone was actually sent off.

Losty Dublin

.ak wrote: »

That's interesting one. Last time I remember somebody getting penalized off the pitch was in a HEC game last season, a player in the sin bin chucked the ball out of play and Rolland issued a red card and sent him off.

Where was the penalty for that awarded?

I recall that it happened in a RFU League game as well whereby a coach did likewise to prevent a quick throw. He did it a second time and was red carded; I'll try find the incident when I get home. In the case of interfering with a quick throw, the penalty will be on the 15 metre line. In the case of an incident occuring off field that warrants the referee to intervene then the game recommences with a penalty from wherever the game stopped last.

Theta

Podge_irl wrote: »

I thought it was the physio actually, but I might be getting confused between the first time Rollers admonished them and the time someone was actually sent off.

Quins of all people!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywQUgfOjZCM

locum-motion

.ak wrote: »

I'm talking about where the kicker stands, not the ball. The OP asked if a player could step out of touch when taking a conversion; and they regularly do, that's the point I was making.

Sorry, misunderstood you.

Clareman

For "normal" matches, it would be up to the home team to change, the understanding being that they would have easier access to alternative jerseys. For HEC or International games, the kits have to be approved by the organisers of the competition in advance of the games, they'll normally discuss it with the the TV companies broadcasting the games as well, competitions will normally have their own rules as to who wears the alternative jersey. Munster had to get a new "third" jersey this year when playing Saracens, which shows that in the HEC the away team changes.

tolosenc

.ak wrote: »

I'm talking about where the kicker stands, not the ball. The OP asked if a player could step out of touch when taking a conversion; and they regularly do, that's the point I was making.

More specifically, if at the moment of contact, he has a foot in touch. During the run up is grand, obviously.

Chucky the tree

If you have a penalty opt to take a kick at goal can you just hit it straight into touch? When England got the penalty at the end I thought the best option was to ask for the kick at goal, take the minute or so and then just turn and kick it into touch.

Podge_irl

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If you have a penalty opt to take a kick at goal can you just hit it straight into touch? When England got the penalty at the end I thought the best option was to ask for the kick at goal, take the minute or so and then just turn and kick it into touch.

No. You have to make a reasonable attempt to kick for the posts.

Losty Dublin

Podge_irl wrote: »

No. You have to make a reasonable attempt to kick for the posts.

Were a team to kick for touch from a place kick, the opposing team would get a scrum from the mark so if anything it would be tantamount to handing possession over.

locum-motion

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If you have a penalty opt to take a kick at goal can you just hit it straight into touch? When England got the penalty at the end I thought the best option was to ask for the kick at goal, take the minute or so and then just turn and kick it into touch.

If the kicker and/or captain has indicated their intention to kick at goal, then they...

Podge_irl wrote: »

...have to make a reasonable attempt to kick for the posts.

FYP, Podge.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Were a team to kick for touch from a place kick, the opposing team would get a scrum from the mark so if anything it would be tantamount to handing possession over.

Actually it would be a penalty, not a scrum.

Losty Dublin

locum-motion wrote: »

Actually it would be a penalty, not a scrum.

No, it's a scrum. There is no penalty specified for kicking from the ground to touch so it defaults back to a scrum on the mark. Unless there is a IRB clarification that you could direct us to, that is

kensutz

Losty Dublin wrote: »

No, it's a scrum. There is no penalty specified for kicking from the ground to touch so it defaults back to a scrum on the mark. Unless there is a IRB clarification that you could direct us to, that is

It's a penalty

10.4 (m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.

Losty Dublin

kensutz wrote: »

It's a penalty

10.4 (m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.

Law 10 covers foul play, not how to take penalty kicks. There is cover under 10.3 to deal with repeated infringements of law but this will come in only when one is repeatedly breaking laws; taking a kick incorrectly isn't going to come into play here. Likewise, 10.4 hasn't any bearing on this as no law has been broken with a penalty to apply unless again, it is repeatedly done by a player. Effective player management would address something minor like this should the need arise

Shelflife

Losty is correct , it's a scrum. However if time is up you can't take the scrum, so I would be inclined to go with a pen in this particular instance as otherwise the team who kicked directly into touch would gain an advantage for their actions.

Normally a scrum though .

Podge_irl

Surely a ref can essentially decide for himself whenever law 10.4 (m) applies?

kensutz

It's deemed to be an act of unsportsmanlike conduct and is a penalty. Even though it is foul play category we have been told it's a penalty against the team who tried to take the laws into their own hands.

Losty Dublin

Podge_irl wrote: »

Surely a ref can essentially decide for himself whenever law 10.4 (m) applies?

Of course s/he can but he can't use it for situations otherwise covered in Law.

crisco10

Another (if somewhat unrealistic scenario) where this may apply:

Team A 2 points up, 80 mins is up (i.e. next stoppage finishes game) but Team B have the ball. Team A's physio "gets in the way" of play. Would the usual decision be scrum to Team B? (thus finishing the game) but given the circumstances, it gets upgraded to a penalty?

Losty Dublin

crisco10 wrote: »

Another (if somewhat unrealistic scenario) where this may apply:

Team A 2 points up, 80 mins is up (i.e. next stoppage finishes game) but Team B have the ball. Team A's physio "gets in the way" of play. Would the usual decision be scrum to Team B? (thus finishing the game) but given the circumstances, it gets upgraded to a penalty?

If a player is injured and the referee stops the game without the ball being made dead, 6.A.8 applies and a scrum is called to the team in possession. The manner of the physio interfering may result in a penalty if it's malicious.

crisco10

Losty Dublin wrote: »

If a player is injured and the referee stops the game without the ball being made dead, 6.A.8 applies and a scrum is called to the team in possession. The manner of the physio interfering may result in a penalty if it's malicious.

I assume that scrum ends the game then tho?

Losty Dublin

crisco10 wrote: »

I assume that scrum ends the game then tho?

A scrum doesn't end a game; it's a means of restarting a game. The ball being made dead by a player (knocked forward, taken into touch, a grounding) ends a game. It's up to the players to make it dead, not the referee so a scrum call in such circumstances isn't the end of the game.

locum-motion

locum-motion wrote: »

...Actually it would be a penalty, not a scrum.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

No, it's a scrum. There is no penalty specified for kicking from the ground to touch so it defaults back to a scrum on the mark. Unless there is a IRB clarification that you could direct us to, that is

kensutz wrote: »

It's a penalty

10.4 (m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Law 10 covers foul play, not how to take penalty kicks. There is cover under 10.3 to deal with repeated infringements of law but this will come in only when one is repeatedly breaking laws; taking a kick incorrectly isn't going to come into play here. Likewise, 10.4 hasn't any bearing on this as no law has been broken with a penalty to apply unless again, it is repeatedly done by a player. Effective player management would address something minor like this should the need arise

Shelflife wrote: »

Losty is correct , it's a scrum. However if time is up you can't take the scrum, so I would be inclined to go with a pen in this particular instance as otherwise the team who kicked directly into touch would gain an advantage for their actions.

Normally a scrum though .

Podge_irl wrote: »

Surely a ref can essentially decide for himself whenever law 10.4 (m) applies?

kensutz wrote: »

It's deemed to be an act of unsportsmanlike conduct and is a penalty. Even though it is foul play category we have been told it's a penalty against the team who tried to take the laws into their own hands.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Of course s/he can but he can't use it for situations otherwise covered in Law.

Actually it is a scrum; I was wrong.

Law 21.5 Scoring a goal from a penalty kick
...
(b) If the kicker indicates to the referee the intention to kick at goal, the kicker must kick at goal. Once the kicker has made the intention clear, there can be no change of the intention. The referee may enquire of the kicker as to the intention.
...
Sanction: Unless otherwise stated in law any infringement by the kicker's team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throws in the ball.

Swiwi

Any refs out there, I would be interested to know your professional views on 2 controversial TMO decisions in the SXV to date

1) Dagg is tackled by Ranger, but gets up again and crosses the chalk. TMO rules he didn't release the ball when first tackled, and try is disallowed. I do know that knee on the ground = tackled, but how long does it take before you are considered "held in the tackle", and therefore obliged to release the ball, rather than get up and continue running? (Blues v Crusaders)

2) Halal & Savea chase grubber kick into in-goal. Halal bats the ball into touch, TMO rules deliberate, penalty try is given, and Halal gets a YC. I wasn't at all sure that it was deliberate (Savea has his arm on Halal's), and even if it was deliberate, I'm not sure Savea would have definitely scored a try anyway. (Blues v Canes)

Footage here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ghEQ5iJt3A&list=UUpqdSLHXz6u9QPWflAbhyPw&index=5 (from 8:52)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEmuRcZiUbg (from 5:25)

Swiwi

Swiwi wrote: »

Any refs out there, I would be interested to know your professional views on 2 controversial TMO decisions in the SXV to date

1) Dagg is tackled by Ranger, but gets up again and crosses the chalk. TMO rules he didn't release the ball when first tackled, and try is disallowed. I do know that knee on the ground = tackled, but how long does it take before you are considered "held in the tackle", and therefore obliged to release the ball, rather than get up and continue running? (Blues v Crusaders)

2) Halal & Savea chase grubber kick into in-goal. Halal bats the ball into touch, TMO rules deliberate, penalty try is given, and Halal gets a YC. I wasn't at all sure that it was deliberate (Savea has his arm on Halal's), and even if it was deliberate, I'm not sure Savea would have definitely scored a try anyway. (Blues v Canes)

Footage here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ghEQ5iJt3A&list=UUpqdSLHXz6u9QPWflAbhyPw&index=5 (from 8:52)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEmuRcZiUbg (from 5:25)

Thanks to Radio Sport NZ for answering my Q...are there no refs out there on boards?

http://radiosport.co.nz/player/ondemand/1425119180-lyndon-bray-on-referees

JustinDee

Swiwi wrote: »

Thanks to Radio Sport NZ for answering my Q...are there no refs out there on boards?

Yes, but apparently Kiwis, bar one, know it all . . . *













* I'll get me coat

locum-motion

Dagg incident:
He was brought to ground and held (Blues player never let go of him)
He must pass, release or place the ball on the ground. That is all. He may not attempt to get back on his feet if he hasn't first done one of those three things.
Now, your question might have been more valid if the Blues player had let go.
A tackling player, once they have regained their feet AND released the tackled player, may then attempt to compete for the ball. In this example, had the Blues guy attempted to grab the ball, he would have been penalised cos he didn't let go first.

In cases where the tackler is trying to let go and get back up as quickly as possible, there may possibly be some confusion as to whether the tackled player was 'held' or not, but in this case there is no confusion. Dagg was indubitably held, and therefore wasn't allowed get back up.

Swiwi

JustinDee wrote: »

Yes, but apparently Kiwis, bar one, know it all . . . *

* I'll get me coat

Any rugby fan worth his salt "thinks" he knows all the rules and is an expert...but humility is the beginning of wisdom

I know ALL the rules of course, just wanted to test everyone else's knowledge...

kensutz

Swiwi wrote: »

Any rugby fan worth his salt "thinks" he knows all the rules and is an expert...but humility is the beginning of wisdom

I know ALL the rules of course, just wanted to test everyone else's knowledge...

What rules? All I know are laws