Safety and the rules/regulations/law of open road racing.

07Lapierre · 18-02-2015 10:54AM

niceonetom wrote: »

Ban cameras.

Or maybe introduce more cameras? if riders are aware that they are being watched (and that there are consequences for their actions) maybe they would behave better?

spyderski · 18-02-2015 10:58AM

niceonetom wrote: »

Ban cameras.

They already are banned.

NamelessPhil · 18-02-2015 11:15AM

Road traffic legislation governs all bahaviour on the roads including racing. Cycling Ireland races are not exempt from having to comply with the law, to say that "then try Sportive cycling where a different part of the road traffic act governs (ie two abreast)" is not correct and possibly misleading. The signing of the Cycling Ireland waiver does not exempt a rider from having to abide by the rules of the road.

daragh_ · 18-02-2015 11:17AM

As I’m quoted at the top of this thread I thought I would throw my 2c in.

I’m heading into my 3rd year in A4 (which says a lot about my ability I guess) and I know feck all about what it’s like to ride in an A3 race so feel free to ignore.

My comments as quoted were specifically about A4 and a general behaviour pattern that I’ve observed, and, for the record, have been guilty of. I don’t mean to be negative but I would like other A4 riders to display at least some awareness of what they are at and are getting into.

I’m very aware of how dangerous the sport can be. I’ve even got (like a lot of you) the scars, wonky collarbone and a finger that doesn’t work properly anymore to prove it.

What I also have is a well developed sense of caution and an awareness of my own ability in terms of about what I can and can’t do in a race.

If I’m feeling strong and the circumstances work out I’ll ride at the front (generally too early but that’s another story) attack if I can and, if I have to ride up on the outside to do that I will. But only if it’s safe to do so.

That means no floating about in a big bunch on the wrong side on narrow roads, with corners. No attacks coming up to blind corners. No blindly following 20 other lads up on the right because the pace seems to have slowed and we all think we are in with a chance 40k into a 60k race.

I honestly don’t mean to sound negative and ruin anyone’s buzz. Racing is probably the best thing I’ve ever done and I don’t think I could stop! As I said in the NF thread a simple thing like the Moped Commissaire made a huge difference to rider behaviour.

I like GCMI’s comment 'learn to attack in a race and get breakaways forming for your own safety’ . That’s what I’ll be trying to do this year. Watching me fail should be amusing :rolleyes:

NamelessPhil · 18-02-2015 11:19AM

Cycling Ireland's own Technical Rules state:

Chapter T6: Rule 5. Riders riding dangerously will be liable to sanction, as will any rider who makes any gesture with the
hands during a group finish in circumstances likely to create a danger.

Rule10. The Commissaire may withdraw any competitor who is physically inadequate or inexperienced and who
presents a danger to other competitors or to himself.

Commisiares should be available to sanction riders during the event as their own Technical Rules permit.

godihatedehills · 18-02-2015 11:34AM

GMCI wrote: »

A few points:....

Great post. GMCI is one of the people who does more for safety in cycling races in a weekend than most people do in their entire lives. The fact that he can also show a bit of practicality about the situation is commendable.

07Lapierre · 18-02-2015 11:58AM

interesting Article:

http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/how-cycling-injuries-are-spiralling-a-medics-view-30999956.html

morana · 18-02-2015 12:02PM

GMCI wrote: »

Unfortunately it is not in the remit of the College of Commissaires. Commissaires can only act on matters of sporting conduct, on the day which is up to a maximum if Disqualification in severity.

ah sure feck it so let it go on.

I cant find that in the rules. the nearest thing was 12.1 in AT4 "breaking the rules of the road".

dashcamdanny · 18-02-2015 01:15PM

GMCI wrote: »

A few points:

1: Cycle Racing is a dangerous sport. If you are not prepared to accept that it is a dangerous sport caused by a number of areas such as dangerous roads, dangerous rider behavior, then try Sportive cycling where a different part of the road traffic act governs (ie two abreast)

.

Such a load of BS.

You have absolutely no entitlement to put other members of the public at risk .
Some of the actions on that vid is blatantly dangerous driving/riding.
The charge that could entails court, heavy fines, losing ones driving licence and so on.

Cycle racing is no doubt dangerous, but that danger should never spread to ordinary members of the public. Im am fairly sure the people traveling the other way did not sign any entry or waiver forms to enter your race on a public road.

And the thing that does my head in the most, being a "sportive" rider, I have to deal with the bike hating motorists as a result of clowns who give us a bad reputation with regard traffic law.

Cams should be allowed as to expose the clowns.

Junior · 18-02-2015 02:41PM

So can anyone put together a coherent list of what they'd like a race to be like then for me ?

CramCycle · 18-02-2015 02:51PM

Junior wrote: »

So can anyone put together a coherent list of what they'd like a race to be like then for me ?

Personally, other racers who are on par with me so as to keep it competitive for me but that don't have the gumption to push it to the line and go all out

Basically an A5 group with experienced but equally unfit riders

daragh_ · 18-02-2015 03:50PM

CramCycle wrote: »

Personally, other racers who are on par with me so as to keep it competitive for me but that don't have the gumption to push it to the line and go all out

Basically an A5 group with experienced but equally unfit riders

I object to your proposal on the grounds that I can.

NeedMoreGears · 18-02-2015 04:05PM

GMCI wrote: »

........

1: ... try Sportive cycling where a different part of the road traffic act governs (ie two abreast)...

2: Rider cameras are not permitted ......

re #1 - Does anyone know where in the RTA or related SIs are the rules for Cycle Racing set out (as distinct from the general law governing road use). Genuine question - the only provisions I can find relate to closed road events (SI190/63 s88).

CI seem to think that the RTA does apply (I infer that there are no special exemptions for cycle racing on open roads)

"You will hear this a lot at races. The roads are not closed to open road races in Ireland. If they are, you will be told about it. Treat how you conduct yourself on the bike, like how you would drive a car in relation to road positioning and passing other riders. After all you are another vehicle on the road where the Road Traffic Act does apply." - http://www.cyclingireland.ie/cycling-news-item/important-notice-for-road-racers-from-commissaires/143`

re #2 - could the mobile commisaire not have a camera if the riders are not permitted to carry them?

wexandproud · 18-02-2015 04:11PM

morana wrote: »

@gmci the video is there ask the college of commisars to go scrutinise it and suspend the offending plonkers/muppets or as I prefer riders.

totally agree . commisars should watch this video and make a few examples and it would set a precedent for the rest of the season before somebody is seriously hurt. there was a lad in a race a few years back hit a car while on wrong side of continues white line on a bend and when he recovered it was everyone's fault except his . people on here talking about the inherent dangers are in some ways correct , of course there is an element of risk but a lot of it could be eliminated if riders changed their behaviour .
i see no great problem if a guy crosses an unbroken line with a clear road ahead, but a lot of guys ,on hearing the shout 'car up' see it as a general call to move forward en masse.

spyderski · 18-02-2015 04:12PM

As far as I know, that's exactly the point, there are no special rules for cycle races (except in closed-road events). So basically, the normal rules of the road apply.

I'd have no issue with comms carrying cameras, in fact the only problem with cameras is fools posting incriminating evidence all over social media without thinking of the consequences. CI should come down like a ton of bricks on any rider with a go-pro or whatever this weekend. If it's not stamped out now we'll have dozens of riders posting stuff everywhere within weeks.

These videos are court-admissible evidence of multiple breaches of the RTA by identifiable individuals, in events organised by identifiable groups. Would people not think before posting this shyte for all the world to see?

Beasty · 18-02-2015 04:16PM

NeedMoreGears wrote: »

re #2 - could the mobile commisaire not have a camera if the riders are not permitted to carry them?

On the specific point of cameras, their use in identifying and dealing with "offences" within CI may be considered, but it's more down to rider behaviour. Don't stick on the wrong side of the road. Use it to move up when safe to do so, but racers need to understand that marshals cannot "control" traffic in any way

The other side of this is that a lot more people will video stuff from the side of the road anyway, but also increasingly from inside their cars. In the same way cyclists often try to highlight poor/illegal behaviour by motorists it's only a matter of time before some disgruntled motorists use their dashcams to highlight inconsiderate and possibly illegal behaviour by racers. Everyone really needs to understand this and race accordingly

NeedMoreGears · 18-02-2015 04:19PM

Beasty wrote: »

... racers need to understand that marshals cannot "control" traffic in any way...

I was thinking in terms something similar to being cited in rugby - such "evidence" could be used after the race when considering whether sanctions would be handed out. It may also have a deterrent effect if the use of video was announced beforehand.

wexandproud · 18-02-2015 04:24PM

Beasty wrote: »

On the specific point of cameras, their use in identifying and dealing with "offences" within CI may be considered, but it's more down to rider behaviour. Don't stick on the wrong side of the road. Use it to move up when safe to do so, but racers need to understand that marshals cannot "control" traffic in any way

The other side of this is that a lot more people will video stuff from the side of the road anyway, but also increasingly from inside their cars. In the same way cyclists often try to highlight poor/illegal behaviour by motorists it's only a matter of time before some disgruntled motorists use their dashcams to highlight inconsiderate and possibly illegal behaviour by racers. Everyone really needs to understand this and race accordingly

just imagine the damage that would be done to cycling if one of the cars meeting the bunch had a dashcam on sunday, the guards could have a field day

spyderski · 18-02-2015 04:26PM

wexandproud wrote: »

just imagine the damage that would be done to cycling if one of the cars meeting the bunch had a dashcam on sunday, the guards could have a field day

Or if riders posted it up on Facebook.....

daragh_ · 18-02-2015 04:28PM

spyderski wrote: »

Or if riders posted it up on Facebook.....

So if nobody saw it it's all ok?

spyderski · 18-02-2015 04:33PM

No. But if nobody saw it its unlikely that the Gardai would be able to use the video as evidence when objecting to the staging of events. Or drivers using the video as evidence when/if there's an accident. Or other riders using the video as evidence to sue CI/race organisers when/if they are injured in a crash in a race.

You get the idea......

spyderski · 18-02-2015 04:34PM

Basically I'm not commenting on the rights or wrongs of rider behaviour, just highlighting the questionable wisdom of posting proof of such behaviour in public.

daragh_ · 18-02-2015 04:40PM

Fair enough.

But this one is going to run and run. As mentioned upthread there are lots of cameras out there, regardless of riders filming themselves on GoPros. Take the asshat following Sean McKenna around last week for example.

spyderski · 18-02-2015 04:46PM

Yep, but that's outside racers control, no point making a rod to beat ourselves with. Feckin' cameras everywhere these days, you can get away with nothing ;-)

CramCycle · 18-02-2015 04:57PM

spyderski wrote: »

Yep, but that's outside racers control, no point making a rod to beat ourselves with. Feckin' cameras everywhere these days, you can get away with nothing ;-)

In the words of Ted: There was a time when the police in this country were friends of the c*****, speeding tickets torn up, drunk driving charges quashed, even a blind eye turned to the odd murder!

ROK ON · 18-02-2015 05:45PM

spyderski wrote: »

Or if riders posted it up on Facebook.....

Nothing to see here!
Stay silent.
Don't spit in the soup.
Omertà et al et al.

wav1 · 18-02-2015 05:45PM

A few points

1 Race organisers only promote the event and supply the marshalls,safety cars.motomarshalls,etc.That's where their remit stops.They have no control over any sporting matters on the road,so its not an orhanisation issue.

2 Can anybody show me a single road race that takes place on our roads where riders are not on the wrong side of the road at some stage?

3 As was alluded to earlier if road closures are a must in NCD how are the planned events for late March and mid April going to go ahead?To the best of my knowledge at least one of them is DEFINITELY going ahead.

4 Everybody wants a safe envoirnment for the riders but its actually impossible to fit the field sizes in early season races on one side of some roads.If it becomes limited it will result in far higher entry fees and lots of disappointed riders particularly at this time of the year.

5 Keep saying it but promoters od road events are getting scarcer and number of riders are getting bigger,so be careful what you wish for.

Beasty · 18-02-2015 06:01PM

wav1 wrote: »

3 As was alluded to earlier if road closures are a must in NCD how are the planned events for late March and mid April going to go ahead?To the best of my knowledge at least one of them is DEFINITELY going ahead.

Not involved in any of the planning here but I presume the plan is to get closed roads (which the Council are happy to co-operate with, but creates a number of challenges nonetheless particularly as some of the "popular" circuits in the area use major roads and/or motorway intersections)

GMCI · 18-02-2015 06:34PM

Not a regular visitor to keep on top of feedback from the post I made last night.

@Lusk_Doyle , I do regret some of my comments (choice of phrases)but am also glad to have gotten my personal view across as it has given some very credible viewpoints from others.
This is boards.ie, what was posted is not the official line from CI and at no stage did I ever indicate that. Official lines from CI comes through press releases to the media and not directly onto forums. I certainly don't see myself as a decision maker. That's what the board is for.

@morana, it is not as simple of scrutinising the footage for infringements and imposing suspensions. Like I already said, the imposition of suspensions are not the responsibility of the College of Commissaires but of Provincial Executives. Such actions are not normally favourable with Provincial Executives because of possible recourse if proceedings are not carried out correctly and things could turn legal very quickly as there are no procedures for the use of video footage in identifying infringements in road races from cameras that are against the sporting regulatons of the sport as a result of being a non essential piece of equipment attached to the bike , or in this case the helmet. From your board experience, you should know how i's have to be dotted and T's crossed in relation to any change.

All cyclists at this weekends events and beyond will be scrutinised at the start by the Commissaires for such equipment and other non essential items, that numbers are visible and that both numbers are worn correctly and not defaced.

As Wav1 says below and I said already, it is all well and good demanding more cameras and change and stricter enforcement by Commissaires. But be careful what you wish for that will ensure all of the consequences Wav1 states above.
The control and Disqualification is very difficult and dangerous for Commissaires following behind in a car to undertake.
For the use of Moto Commissaires, here is a breakdown of how many there are in each province:
Leinster - 2
Munster - 0
Ulster - 3
Connacht - 1

So the bodies simply are not there to control it.

Rolling road closures have always been a compromise with the Councils/Gardaí in order to avoid a full road closure but organisers of events have often not put in place the suitable civilian escort cover to ensure a satisfactory Rolling Road Closure for the number of minutes to allow a peloton to pass. The rolling road closure is preferable due to cost issues and also minimising the effect of delays/diversions to the local public.

I have multiple ideas and recommendations to ensure the standard of events is raised enough to match the demand from entrants. These ideas involve a significant increase in the organisation of events by organisers with more resources and also a number of concessions on the part of cyclists. It would be a total change in how events are managed and the racing ability of those taking part in the events. The result, safer racing but most likely at a cost increase in entrance fees.

fat bloke · 18-02-2015 06:58PM

I'm not sure what all this legalese is for. If numbers are used to identify riders who cross finish lines 1st, 2nd & third to award points and prizes, then why can't those same numbers be used to identify riders who cross continuous white lines to impose warnings and sanctions??

Safety and the rules/regulations/law of open road racing.

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