Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1

evolving_doors · 13-02-2015 08:04PM

Marshall Some Second wrote: »

How could it possibly have taken so many hours of talks and so much discussion to come up with such a load of old cobblers?!

The fact these proposals/agreements/circulars/announcements occur so often now on the eve of holidays is just embarrassing at this stage. They don't even try and hide their contempt.

Well , itll be up to both parties to adjust the details to their liking by friday, then itll be back to teachers to vote on. Although the union appear to be rattling their swords at how much they dislike the proposal... (although they would do that anyway!). So I dont think its in stone yet. Then again, is it just a merry dance with token tweekings to be done and then off to a ballot. (with the old line that this is the "'best they can do.. so might as well vote yes " ).

Ill have a read of the document anyway but ill treat it as a working document, no more no less.

rainbowtrout · 13-02-2015 08:07PM

Former proposal: Teachers do 40% assessment, SEC do 60% assessment. Grades will be combined.

Current proposal: Teachers do 40% assessment, SEC do 60% assessment. Grades will not be combined.

Exactly what part of 'Teachers will not do assessment' are they having difficulty with to come up with this ludicrous proposal?

km79 · 13-02-2015 08:09PM

Armelodie wrote: »

Well , itll be up to both parties to adjust the details to their liking by friday, then itll be back to teachers to vote on. Although the union appear to be rattling their swords at how much they dislike the proposal... (although they would do that anyway!). So I dont think its in stone yet. Then again, is it just a merry dance with token tweekings to be done and then off to a ballot. (with the old line that this is the "'best they can do.. so might as well vote yes " ).

Ill have a read of the document anyway but ill treat it as a working document, no more no less.

the problem is the minister is treating it as a "DRAFT AGREEMENT not the starting point for negotiations"........

evolving_doors · 13-02-2015 08:09PM

acequion wrote: »

Oh jesus this is a total heap of shyte and offers no solution whatsoever!!

hey, what happened to being positive acquion ?

The hand has only been dealt. I think unions are talking a mighty game with threats of more strikes. But talk is cheap .... ill wait till next friday to see if they fold or raise.

acequion · 13-02-2015 08:26PM

Armelodie wrote: »

hey, what happened to being positive acquion ?

The hand has only been dealt. I think unions are talking a mighty game with threats of more strikes. But talk is cheap .... ill wait till next friday to see if they fold or raise.

We absolutely have to hold our nerve here Armelodie. And yes stay positive.What is very obvious is that there is a determination by the rotten powers that run this island to force us into this,by whatever manipulative means they can.

What we must do now is heap the pressure on our unions to stand firm. So,let's every one of us get emailing our union leaders plus branch representatives to reject this farce out of hand!!

Let's do whatever it takes. This is WAY more serious than HRA and CPA ever were. Folks,if they get their way on this,we may all get checking our CV's and reviewing our prospects in far away continents.Not to mention what it will entail for the upcoming citizens of this country,a country which has the highest birth rate in Europe. I was on here last night cautioning against predictions of apocalyptic scenarios. But I still think this lies very much in the hands of the union members and it was never more important to really be a member.So,get emailing and phoning please!

2011abc · 13-02-2015 08:51PM

You think people didnt email and phone before HRA ?They simply dont care , certainly those at the very pinnacle , not even if all the membership resigned en masse (did we ever find out how many have left in last year , not to mention increasing numbers of NQTs not bothering join?)I phoned and emailled non stop before all the HRA votes ( a significant number of Standing Committee as well as the General Secretary were happy to roll out the defeatist "Teachers dont have appetite to fight" mantra ) , I went to the ASTI Fightback Gresham 'lobby lobby' of CEC (still remember the face of one guy who refused to take a leafletand looked at us like we were dirt on his shoe and yet hypocritically posts measured 'combative' posts on Facebook .As far as I know he may be a front runner in race for ASTI hierarchy) and attended their meetings .And then I left and to be honest im probably feeling SLIGHTLY less hurt , stupid , disappointed , frustrated etc than those still in the union .At least Im not PAYING the people who are 'facilitating' (They CHOSE Travers)this...
While the rest of the workforce gets pay RISES once again we will be forced to increase productivity in return for restoration of cuts .So we had to 'work harder for our pay cuts..........and harder again to get it back!!!'

km79 · 13-02-2015 10:08PM

I'm a little more heartened after watching the 9 o clock news
Phillip Irwin is a MUCH better representative than Sally Maguire was last year.....

doc_17 · 13-02-2015 10:25PM

We have to hold the line. This government have less than a year left.

I can't believe a Labour Minister ever wanted school based assessment for certification purposes. They are gonna be wiped out and they'll blame "communication issues".

FEMPI, HRA2? Their communication issues were only that people knew what they were doing, not that they didn't know. Bye bye Labour

2011abc · 13-02-2015 11:59PM

Yeah but what use is that if FF get back in or God forbid the 'Bankers Coalition ' of FF and FG ?(Actually Labour are IN that unholy alliance )As it says on ASTI Fightback this IS political .Government supporters control union .

jjdonegal · 14-02-2015 09:31AM

Maybe I've missed it somewhere and it has been stated - how is the new English course being assessed?
Absolutely baffling set of changes / orders been thrown at us over the last 4/5 years and personally this new JC reads to me as an absolute disaster.
Would I be right in saying that the knock on having this reduced emphasis on JC will actually see a number of jobs being lost in places like the SEC / Dept in Athlone?
I'm probably a true pessimist but the last 3/4 months I've started actively looking to leave the classroom behind and move sideways / upways - teaching 2015 is nowhere near the job it was when I started in 2004.
I dread where next when this new JC comes in - I say when as I fully expect a cave in soon for some ridiculous carrot that will be thrown at us.
Finally - any indication of 3rd strike day?

km79 · 14-02-2015 10:13AM

jjdonegal wrote: »

Maybe I've missed it somewhere and it has been stated - how is the new English course being assessed?
Absolutely baffling set of changes / orders been thrown at us over the last 4/5 years and personally this new JC reads to me as an absolute disaster.
Would I be right in saying that the knock on having this reduced emphasis on JC will actually see a number of jobs being lost in places like the SEC / Dept in Athlone?
I'm probably a true pessimist but the last 3/4 months I've started actively looking to leave the classroom behind and move sideways / upways - teaching 2015 is nowhere near the job it was when I started in 2004.
I dread where next when this new JC comes in - I say when as I fully expect a cave in soon for some ridiculous carrot that will be thrown at us.
Finally - any indication of 3rd strike day?

You are spot on!
I am a science teacher so there is a tiny bit of good news in this in that the new course will be delayed by 12 months under these proposals BUT English teachers and students have been hung out to dry on this . All that's in it for them is in service during the SECOND year of the course. The year when the first state assessment takes place. If it was not so serious ya would laugh. Only in Ireland. And still I'm seeing and hearing comments from teachers saying "its not too bad"
Do us and your students all a favour EDUCATE yourself . Read the document. Don't be lazy and just listen to the news or whatever you hear in staff room read it yourself. It will take 2 minutes.
Do not repeat past mistakes like we did with HRA

Chancer3001 · 14-02-2015 12:48PM

I've read the document and still don't think it's too bad

acequion · 14-02-2015 12:52PM

km79 wrote: »

You are spot on!
I am a science teacher so there is a tiny bit of good news in this in that the new course will be delayed by 12 months under these proposals BUT English teachers and students have been hung out to dry on this . All that's in it for them is in service during the SECOND year of the course. The year when the first state assessment takes place. If it was not so serious ya would laugh. Only in Ireland. And still I'm seeing and hearing comments from teachers saying "its not too bad"
Do us and your students all a favour EDUCATE yourself . Read the document. Don't be lazy and just listen to the news or whatever you hear in staff room read it yourself. It will take 2 minutes.
Do not repeat past mistakes like we did with HRA

Delaying science for a year is a divide and conquer ploy which as you rightly point out hangs the English teachers out to dry. They are hoping that that might just placate the more militant of the science teachers which isolates the English teachers, leaving us to fight alone. In fact there is no reason whatsoever why English cannot be deferred as well as the new course only kicks in properly in second year.

mirrorwall14 · 14-02-2015 01:13PM

Chancer3001 wrote: »

I've read the document and still don't think it's too bad

What is 'not too bad'? As was pointed out earlier this is exactly the same proposal as pre strikes with the only change being that they won't put the grade into the state cert? We'll still be preparing and assessing our own students on continuous assessment

Chancer3001 · 14-02-2015 02:31PM

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

What is 'not too bad'? As was pointed out earlier this is exactly the same proposal as pre strikes with the only change being that they won't put the grade into the state cert? We'll still be preparing and assessing our own students on continuous assessment

Before this they wanted us to correct the junior cert

Now they say give exams in 2nd and 3rd year and use that.

Basically use the exams we already do.

So it would add value to classwork I guess. Can't do nothing all year then cram before the exam

mirrorwall14 · 14-02-2015 03:45PM

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Before this they wanted us to correct the junior cert

Now they say give exams in 2nd and 3rd year and use that.

Basically use the exams we already do.

So it would add value to classwork I guess. Can't do nothing all year then cram before the exam

Where are you reading that it is exams in 2nd/3rd year, 3.3 says it will be orals, presentations etc not written exams?

katydid · 14-02-2015 07:14PM

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

What is 'not too bad'? As was pointed out earlier this is exactly the same proposal as pre strikes with the only change being that they won't put the grade into the state cert? We'll still be preparing and assessing our own students on continuous assessment

Well, I suppose the idea is that since the grades won't count, there won't be the claimed pressure on you from parents and from the struggle to be objective.

That may be so (although why you can't handle a bit of pressure in a professional way is beyond me), but it is actually a worse proposal because while the perceived pressure will not be there, what will be there is an attitude from students as to why they should bother doing this work or taking it seriously if it's not counted. It will become a secondary grading system and cause disciplinary and motivational problems.

gaiscioch · 14-02-2015 07:22PM

One consequence of their releasing this "deal" at the end of this week is that I have ineffably more hostility to their attempts to put the failings of the entire education system on the backs of teachers like me by demanding we work even harder.

I am still not finished correcting the 129 exam scripts from Leaving Cert and Junior Cert Mocks. 129 exam papers. On top of that I have had to try and carry out oral exams with all 30 LC students in my LC language class, while "teaching" my regular classes. Just try and conceive of the logistics there, all motivated by saving money. I ended up using my own free classes to plough through those Orals. And instead of a break when I get home I have to carry out a mass of assessments know as mock corrections. This quality of life is but a taste of what they want us to do under "assessment". Don't for a minute delude yourself into thinking this 40% is the end of the DoES demands. It's the latest step in our decline. Bit by bit they are breaking us, the people who ended in the top 10% of our year and chose teaching for quality of life reasons when we could have gone the FE1/ACCA etc money-focused route that many of our friends chose.

I have ten exam papers left to correct and I am now intellectually bereft of the capacity to give detailed comments and suggestions for improvement. After this, I will have to develop resources to address weaknesses and upload them to edmodo. So much for "teachers' holidays". This is what burnt out is. At this moment I have nothing left to offer this job. These people propose, once again, that I work more than I'm doing already. I cannot give any more.

There's no dignity in what the Irish Department of Education is trying to do. None.

evolving_doors · 14-02-2015 08:44PM

gaiscioch wrote: »

One consequence of their releasing this "deal" at the end of this week is that I have ineffably more hostility to their attempts to put the failings of the entire education system on the backs of teachers like me by demanding we work even harder.

I am still not finished correcting the 129 exam scripts from Leaving Cert and Junior Cert Mocks. 129 exam papers. On top of that I have had to try and carry out oral exams with all 30 LC students in my LC language class, while "teaching" my regular classes. Just try and conceive of the logistics there, all motivated by saving money. I ended up using my own free classes to plough through those Orals. And instead of a break when I get home I have to carry out a mass of assessments know as mock corrections. This quality of life is but a taste of what they want us to do under "assessment". Don't for a minute delude yourself into thinking this 40% is the end of the DoES demands. It's the latest step in our decline. Bit by bit they are breaking us, the people who ended in the top 10% of our year and chose teaching for quality of life reasons when we could have gone the FE1/ACCA etc money-focused route that many of our friends chose.

I have ten exam papers left to correct and I am now intellectually bereft of the capacity to give detailed comments and suggestions for improvement. After this, I will have to develop resources to address weaknesses and upload them to edmodo. So much for "teachers' holidays". This is what burnt out is. At this moment I have nothing left to offer this job. These people propose, once again, that I work more than I'm doing already. I cannot give any more.

There's no dignity in what the Irish Department of Education is trying to do. None.

What if the exams you were correcting had some of the content moved to a 2nd year assessment? You'ld be finished correcting the mocks a lot sooner and wouldnt have the top-heavy content to revise for the JC.

If you reject travers proposal then you'll just perpetuate the status quo of system you (quite rightly imo) say is a burden!

mirrorwall14 · 14-02-2015 08:59PM

Armelodie wrote: »

What if the exams you were correcting had some of the content moved to a 2nd year assessment? You'ld be finished correcting the mocks a lot sooner and wouldnt have the top-heavy content to revise for the JC.

If you reject travers proposal then you'll just perpetuate the status quo of system you (quite rightly imo) say is a burden!

The exam length is still going to be substantial (I believe 1.5hrs?) and there will still be the same number of papers to correct. So instead of having just the mocks to correct the proposal as I read it means we will have, christmas exams, summer exams, continuous assessment for 2nd years and the mocks. I don't see how his proposal is going to reduce correction?

paddybarry · 14-02-2015 09:14PM

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

The exam length is still going to be substantial (I believe 1.5hrs?) and there will still be the same number of papers to correct. So instead of having just the mocks to correct the proposal as I read it means we will have, christmas exams, summer exams, continuous assessment for 2nd years and the mocks. I don't see how his proposal is going to reduce correction?

Exactly, there will still be mocks.

r93kaey5p2izun · 14-02-2015 09:22PM

Armelodie wrote:

If you reject travers proposal then you'll just perpetuate the status quo of system you (quite rightly imo) say is a burden!

I agree but that's absolutely not a reason to accept these proposals either! That's a very weak argument for these changes and the fact it's being put forward with such regularity (in general, not by you Armelodie) really goes to show the lack of sound reasons for sticking to this disastrous JCSA plan other than not wanting to be seen to dump RQ's bullsh1t legacy once and for all.

rainbowtrout · 14-02-2015 10:00PM

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

The exam length is still going to be substantial (I believe 1.5hrs?) and there will still be the same number of papers to correct. So instead of having just the mocks to correct the proposal as I read it means we will have, christmas exams, summer exams, continuous assessment for 2nd years and the mocks. I don't see how his proposal is going to reduce correction?

Very true. I just looked up the old JC Science papers on examinations.ie.

The exam for the 1989 syllabus which was 100% exam was 2.5 hours. The current format which has 35% practical coursework and a written exam worth 65% is 2 hours. That is not a substantial reduction in time for the written exam given that a third of the marks are for coursework. It's also a subject which mirrors fairly closely what the new proposals want in terms of coursework/written exam split.

Further to that, JC Science correctors currently correct the coursework and the exam paper. It takes as long to correct the coursework booklet as it does the exam paper. For a teacher taking on this work under the new proposals they would have to correct this coursework and mocks which aren't going to be substantially shorter I reckon.

acequion · 14-02-2015 10:24PM

katydid wrote: »

Well, I suppose the idea is that since the grades won't count, there won't be the claimed pressure on you from parents and from the struggle to be objective.

That may be so (although why you can't handle a bit of pressure in a professional way is beyond me), but it is actually a worse proposal because while the perceived pressure will not be there, what will be there is an attitude from students as to why they should bother doing this work or taking it seriously if it's not counted. It will become a secondary grading system and cause disciplinary and motivational problems.

What do you mean by what you are saying in brackets,emboldened above? Do please explain.

katydid · 14-02-2015 11:46PM

acequion wrote: »

What do you mean by what you are saying in brackets,emboldened above? Do please explain.

I'm not sure what you need to know. I don't understand why second level teachers are afraid of a bit of pressure from parents. They are professionals, they should be able to handle a bit of pressure.

acequion · 15-02-2015 12:11AM

katydid wrote: »

I'm not sure what you need to know. I don't understand why second level teachers are afraid of a bit of pressure from parents. They are professionals, they should be able to handle a bit of pressure.

"A bit" of pressure! Do you not understand that second level teachers are under constant pressure?

acequion · 15-02-2015 01:27PM

gaiscioch wrote: »

One consequence of their releasing this "deal" at the end of this week is that I have ineffably more hostility to their attempts to put the failings of the entire education system on the backs of teachers like me by demanding we work even harder.

I am still not finished correcting the 129 exam scripts from Leaving Cert and Junior Cert Mocks. 129 exam papers. On top of that I have had to try and carry out oral exams with all 30 LC students in my LC language class, while "teaching" my regular classes. Just try and conceive of the logistics there, all motivated by saving money. I ended up using my own free classes to plough through those Orals. And instead of a break when I get home I have to carry out a mass of assessments know as mock corrections. This quality of life is but a taste of what they want us to do under "assessment". Don't for a minute delude yourself into thinking this 40% is the end of the DoES demands. It's the latest step in our decline. Bit by bit they are breaking us, the people who ended in the top 10% of our year and chose teaching for quality of life reasons when we could have gone the FE1/ACCA etc money-focused route that many of our friends chose.

I have ten exam papers left to correct and I am now intellectually bereft of the capacity to give detailed comments and suggestions for improvement. After this, I will have to develop resources to address weaknesses and upload them to edmodo. So much for "teachers' holidays". This is what burnt out is. At this moment I have nothing left to offer this job. These people propose, once again, that I work more than I'm doing already. I cannot give any more.

There's no dignity in what the Irish Department of Education is trying to do. None.

gaiscioch,my advice to you is to down tools and take your holidays. I know you didn't post that looking for sympathy,but inadvertently that post demonstrates that until we, the teachers, put up our hands and cry,STOP,they'll just keep piling on the work.

@katydid,does that not prove my point about your "bit" of pressure? Do you think we should have to endure yet more pressure from parents on top of all that? Just how much pressure can any one person take??

2011abc · 15-02-2015 01:52PM

Just for you Katy:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-17130934

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-22367914

Maybe you think a certain 'attrition rate' is acceptable ? How about the factories in China where workers throw themselves off the rooftops by the dozen? All over 'a bit of pressure'?

rainbowtrout · 15-02-2015 03:48PM

2011abc wrote: »

Just for you Katy:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-17130934

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-22367914

Maybe you think a certain 'attrition rate' is acceptable ? How about the factories in China where workers throw themselves off the rooftops by the dozen? All over 'a bit of pressure'?

Or the case in Leeds last year where the student stabbed a teacher to death in the classroom and school continued on as normal. What pressure must be on teachers and principals in the UK system that it's considered normal to keep a school open when a teacher has been murdered in their classroom???

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/leeds-teacher-killed-15yearold-pupil-arrested-after-anne-maguire-stabbed-to-death-in-front-of-class-full-of-students-in-corpus-christi-catholic-college-9299294.html

Pupils were kept in school for the rest of the day and lessons carried on as usual following the incident.

acequion · 15-02-2015 04:24PM

2011abc wrote: »

Just for you Katy:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-17130934

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-22367914

Maybe you think a certain 'attrition rate' is acceptable ? How about the factories in China where workers throw themselves off the rooftops by the dozen? All over 'a bit of pressure'?

Shocking stuff! But there is no doubt that excessive pressure is extremely dangerous and many people cannot handle it.I,personally,could not handle excessive pressure. I need to feel calm and cope-worthy to do a good job and I chose teaching for the quality of life and a decent work /life balance. That is exactly what is being eroded with this insidious "bit of pressure" attitude and that is why we must hold firm in our present stance.

Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert **See Mod Warning Post #1**

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Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1