Pressures around Church weddings

theteal · 11-02-2015 07:36PM

Ha ha, funny that this thread should pop up today. We were down the at registry office this morning to register out intent to marry - that's how they do it in the uk. That goes up on a wall for 16 days and if nobody objects, we're good to go. We also booked our official marriage date which cost the princely sum of £50. That'll be a case of signing a form with some witnesses in the same room we were in this morning. Then we're off to a Spanish mountain village at the end of April for a symbolic ceremony and a shindig with friends and family.

Thankfully her family, although religious christians, are not catholic and are happy and supportive for us to do our own thing. My own family's religious leanings faded during my formative teenage years (I'd like to think I played a role in that) so they're just happy have a party and embrace our newly extended family.

In reality its all just an excuse for a soiree. I could live without it, we've been together 9 years at this stage so the point is a little beyond me. Girls like weddings though so I'll just do as I'm told on this one!

Menas · 11-02-2015 07:37PM

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Well there is The Church in Dublin and there is an old church in Killorgin that is now a tapas bar/restaurant.....so not beyond the bounds of possibility.

Maybe I need to amend the business plan so that it's do alternative weddings during the day and then have a bar/nightclub in the evening.

An all in one package? Get hooked up and hitched in the same place!

Boom__Boom · 11-02-2015 07:43PM

lazygal wrote: »

A lot of the churches are awful though-they have no architectural merit whatsoever and wouldn't be that nice as wedding venues. I think another issue will be couples being able to get a priest to marry them. There's a massive shortage of priests in many areas. That might away those who are a la carte about a church wedding towards easier options.

Yeah I don't think people don't really realise how old the age profile of the priests in the Catholic church in Ireland is and just how few priests there are going to be left in 10/20 years.

FairytaleGirl · 11-02-2015 07:54PM

todders wrote: »

Why would you be bothered since the church themselves don't ( and claims God doesn't) recognise your marriage?

Why would you want to even associate with that nonsense?

Because my relationship with God is completely separate from the institution of the Catholic Church. In fact I think if God came to earth now he would be all for celebrating pure love between two good people and absolutely raging at the so called 'Christians' using his name to discriminate against and judge there fellow man/woman.

lazygal · 11-02-2015 07:56PM

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

Because my relationship with God is completely separate from the institution of the Catholic Church. In fact I think if God came to earth now he would be all for celebrating pure love between two good people and absolutely raging at the so called 'Christians' using his name to discriminate against and judge there fellow man/woman.

There are 30,000 other Christian sects to follow, some of which approve of and perform same sex marriages. Would you not pick one of them to follow rather than one which things you're disordered? If you're completely separate from the Church then not getting married in a catholic church isn't an issue, surely?

FairytaleGirl · 11-02-2015 08:10PM

lazygal wrote: »

There are 30,000 other Christian sects to follow, some of which approve of and perform same sex marriages. Would you not pick one of them to follow rather than one which things you're disordered? If you're completely separate from the Church then not getting married in a catholic church isn't an issue, surely?

It is something I have considered but not really looked into. I dont have an issue with the catholic religion itself - more the man made aspects - like judgement of others and disregarding basic principles (love thy neighbor)

lazygal · 11-02-2015 08:14PM

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

It is something I have considered but not really looked into. I dont have an issue with the catholic religion itself - more the man made aspects - like judgement of others and disregarding basic principles (love thy neighbor)

There's thousands of other faiths saying exactly the same touchy feely stuff.

MrWalsh · 11-02-2015 08:20PM

Boom__Boom wrote: »

The thing is that I reckon over the next few years there are going to be a lot more churches coming on the market - you only have to look at the age profiles of the religious and the numbers being ordained to see that very soon there is going to be nowhere near enough priests/staff to use the number of churches in the country.

It will be very interesting to see what all the spare buildings end up being used for.

I'm familiar with one in use as a bar/nightclub, one as offices, one has been converted into apartments, one is a tourist attraction....

The above is fine and dandy for nice old buildings that you'd want to protect but some more recent churches are awful looking yoks!

whatdoicare · 11-02-2015 08:21PM

Got married in a civil/pagan ceremony. The amount of hurtful abuse we received from my mother alone was unreal. Didn't baptise our little one - worse abuse,cajoling, lies, guilt talk, abuse, fights, exclusion came with that.

I don't understand how me and my husband NOT wanting to stand up in front of everyone and telling outright BS lies is seen as the bad option. From what we can gather we would be better off and seen as normal if we were only prepared to lie, not just lie but publically declare the lie to all our family and friends - which is of course one of the major things you aren't supposed to be doing as a catholic.

Boggles my mind.

todders · 11-02-2015 08:22PM

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

Because my relationship with God is completely separate from the institution of the Catholic Church

So why are you bothered about being married in a Catholic Church then?

If your relationship is with God, surely anywhere would do

Sorry, I'm not following your logic

FairytaleGirl · 11-02-2015 08:25PM

lazygal wrote: »

There's thousands of other faiths saying exactly the same touchy feely stuff.

You call it touchy feely - I call it respecting others and having a belief in a higher power. Either way I dont force it down anyone's throat and wouldnt dream of stopping anyone marrying in the name of conflicting with my beliefs. My religion is personal to me, and I would like to get married in a chapel. /Endof

Benny_Cake · 11-02-2015 08:25PM

We got married in the registry office in Dublin a few months ago. It was a lovely, simple ceremony. We went that route as my wife isn't religious and I'd only just begun attending a different church, and we wanted a small ceremony with immediate family only. As far as I was concerned we were already married in the eyes of God anyway! It didn't seem to bother anyone too much, and to their credit, they kept it to themselves if it did.

Having said that, everyone else in my extended family was married in a Catholic Church. I won't presume to judge whether they did it as a result of family pressure or not.

People should have the wedding they want. Hopefully you'll only do it once, it's worth taking a stand on.

Benny_Cake · 11-02-2015 08:31PM

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

You call it touchy feely - I call it respecting others and having a belief in a higher power. Either way I dont force it down anyone's throat and wouldnt dream of stopping anyone marrying in the name of conflicting with my beliefs. My religion is personal to me, and I would like to get married in a chapel. /Endof

The Unitarian churches in Dublin and Cork host ceremonies to celebrate a civil partnership (the Dublin church is beautiful). You don't have to be a member either. Most Quaker meetings in Ireland also host civil partnership ceremonies although at least one of the couple would be expected to have been attending for a while.

Unfortunately, they're the only church-based options available in Ireland for same-sex couples at the moment as far as I know.

FairytaleGirl · 11-02-2015 08:33PM

todders wrote: »

So why are you bothered about being married in a Catholic Church then?

If your relationship is with God, surely anywhere would do

Sorry, I'm not following your logic

It's the principle of not being allowed to by people who think it's what God would want - when I have a strong faith and deserve it as much as anyone else to have my relationship acknowledged. Sorry if it doesnt make sense. I just think people have interfered too much in religion.

lazygal · 11-02-2015 08:42PM

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

It's the principle of not being allowed to by people who think it's what God would want - when I have a strong faith and deserve it as much as anyone else to have my relationship acknowledged. Sorry if it doesnt make sense. I just think people have interfered too much in religion.

I don't understand this. The catholic faith thinks being gay is a grave disorder and is actively working to ensure you can't get married in a civil ceremony. Why would you give even the slightest positive thought to an organization that doesn't want you to be able to get married, regardless of whether its in a church? When you say you have a strong faith, what exactly does that mean? As a catholic with a strong faith, how do you cope with the comments of Bishop Nulty today?

MrWalsh · 11-02-2015 09:04PM

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

It's the principle of not being allowed to by people who think it's what God would want

Is this not by definition what religion is? People saying what's allowed and what isn't because they think they are doing what God would want?

Paramite Pie · 11-02-2015 09:24PM

It's important to remember that many people don't see weddings as just the couples 'day', but also the day that you join their family. This might explain the actions of some of the more traditionalist families, they see it as snubbing their family values on the same day your joining their family. Not an easy situation.

I hope to have a Civil Ceremony myself someday and I know that at least my parents/uncles/aunts are ok with that.

Tarzana2 · 11-02-2015 09:53PM

Galilea Cold Miner wrote: »

To be honest I expect it wont feel like a wedding really without a church or proper reception in a hotel.

Dear lord, you have to be one of the most unimaginative and crashingly conventional people I've come across.

One eyed Jack · 11-02-2015 09:58PM

lazygal wrote: »

I don't understand this. The catholic faith thinks being gay is a grave disorder and is actively working to ensure you can't get married in a civil ceremony.

It doesn't? The RCC Hierarchy is actively working to promote the institution of marriage on their terms which does not recognise same-sex unions. The RCC is changing constantly to keep step with society, and I have no doubt that they wil eventually recognise same-sex unions. They will be forced to as many of their members are LGBT.

Why would you give even the slightest positive thought to an organization that doesn't want you to be able to get married, regardless of whether its in a church? When you say you have a strong faith, what exactly does that mean? As a catholic with a strong faith, how do you cope with the comments of Bishop Nulty today?

Because there's far more to being a member of the RCC than simply doing whatever Bishop Nulty says. I haven't seen Bishop Nulty's comments (tbh even google didn't help, but I have a fair idea from reading his previous statements), and I can simply say I disagree with them, and I know I'm not alone in disagreeing with them.

MrWalsh · 11-02-2015 10:27PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It doesn't? The RCC Hierarchy is actively working to promote the institution of marriage on their terms which does not recognise same-sex unions. The RCC is changing constantly to keep step with society, and I have no doubt that they wil eventually recognise same-sex unions. They will be forced to as many of their members are LGBT.

The RCC does see homosexuality as a disorder.
www .vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
(Sorry won't let me post the link)

I don't think that they will ever recognise same sex unions. Many of their members have ALWAYS been LGBT. I don't see any evidence that the RCC is changing to keep step with society. They still hold the same positions on social issues as they always did. Can you think of any example where the RCC has actually changed their position to reflect a change in society?

stinkle · 11-02-2015 11:16PM

I ticked "civil" but ours was actually humanist. We aren't religious in any way, and for example the only time we have ever been in churches together is for weddings/christenings/funerals and that time we stayed with OH's granny and brought her to mass. I would have felt bad "using" a church for the day if we'd gone down that route.

I really dislike the attitude that some people have about non-religious ceremonies, specifically non-catholic ones. In my experience people seemed to think it was a protest vote, or trying to be contrary or edgy when really all we wanted a nice personal ceremony which didnt include promising to baptise any kids or other crap like that. I also would not have been able for premarriage courses, or having to decide on religious music or readings that are meaningless to us. What also bugs me is that Irish person+Irish person getting married is automatically assumed to be catholic wedding, and everyone seems to have an opinion when its not, but when it's Irish catholic+foreign person/non-catholic people usually keep their traps shut out of politeness. That's my experience anyway.

My family were grand - mam is fairly critical of church anyway, dad isnt a bit religious and was brought up in a "mixed" household so is a bit more broad-minded which was passed on to us kids. Mam got a bit annoying the odd time when telling all her mates etc that we were "only" having a civil ceremony and I called her on it, but she actually was using it in the context of trying not to look rude as she wasnt able to invite the whole neighbourhood to have a gawk at me the way they normally would if there was a church wedding!

It was a big deal for Ohs side though and was fairly unpleasant when our decision first came up. I cant get my head around why any religious person would actually be ok with two non-believers hijacking their church and being hypocritical liars when taking vows, especially when most of the argument centres on stuff like "what will the extended family say?". Who cares what a bunch of people who may or may not even be able to attend on the day has to say?

At the end of the day, once it's all legal there's a lot of important connotations such as next-of-kin, finances etc. Once we got our cert we were able to apply for visas together to work abroad when previously we could not. The legal bit is the important bit, god or no god.

Tarzana2 · 11-02-2015 11:34PM

Shenshen wrote: »

I can't say I would have preferred a grey, empty, drafty church to the beautiful, warm, sun-filled room looking out over the Atlantic where we actually got married.

And there doesn't even need to be sun. My sis got married in an old country pile in the middle of winter. It had a beautiful big patterned window at the end of the room, a huge log fire, beautiful tiling, comfy classy chairs and all kinds of old knick knacks and family heirlooms. It was gorgeous.

Catholic churches in this country; some are indeed beautiful but some are horribly ugly/plain/cold.

One eyed Jack · 11-02-2015 11:42PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

The RCC does see homosexuality as a disorder.
www .vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
(Sorry won't let me post the link)

That document was written in 1986. The current Pope's stance on the issue is a little more forward thinking -

Replied when asked about the Vatican's alleged "gay lobby" that while a lobby might be an issue, he doesn't have any problem with the inclination to homosexuality itself: "Who am I to judge them if they're seeking the Lord in good faith?" he said.

"There's a lot of talk about the gay lobby, but I've never seen it on the Vatican ID card."

"When I meet a gay person, I have to distinguish between their being gay and being part of a lobby. If they accept the Lord and have goodwill, who am I to judge them? They shouldn't be marginalized. The tendency [to homosexuality] is not the problem ... they're our brothers."

I don't think that they will ever recognise same sex unions. Many of their members have ALWAYS been LGBT. I don't see any evidence that the RCC is changing to keep step with society. They still hold the same positions on social issues as they always did. Can you think of any example where the RCC has actually changed their position to reflect a change in society?

Well there's one quite recent one that instantly springs to mind that's been put forward and is quite relevant to Irish society, could certainly prove to be a game changer -

Raise Confirmation age to 16, says Bishop of Limerick

The Catholic Bishop of Limerick has said children are receiving the sacrament of Confirmation too young and has suggested they wait until they are 16 and can 'opt in'.

Children are currently confirmed at 12 years old while in sixth class in primary school.

But Bishop Brendan Leahy has suggested it could take place while children are in Transition Year and be more parish-based with a project element carried out in schools.

The bishop's idea would entail a massive shake-up of religious education at both primary and second level.

In a major address to launch Catholic Schools Week in the diocese of Limerick last night, Bishop Leahy asked if 12-year-olds are really aware of what is going on when they are confirmed. He suggested they might be "floating" into Confirmation rather than "opting" to be confirmed.

Speaking at the Woodlands Hotel in Adare, Dr Leahy said it is important in Ireland that "we re-awaken students to the fact that being a Catholic is an option".

The bishop also underlined that the removal of Confirmation from the primary school, which would result from having Confirmation at an older age, would not have to mean less religious education.

His proposal is likely to be welcomed by many sixth class teachers who feel students spend too much time on sacramental preparation in their final year of the primary cycle.

The bishop, who oversees scores of Confirmation ceremonies around his diocese, said: "We can have wonderful sacramental ceremonies but the child finds little resonance between that and what is going on in his or her everyday life at home."

He also assessed the failings of Confirmation practice currently, warning that instead of coming to know the Catholic faith as a new, challenging and meaningful horizon that can be opted into, "it often appears like a pre-fabricated cultural package of Irish heritage we are born into - to be discarded nonchalantly later in life as part of our throwaway culture".

While Confirmation continues to be seen as an important ritual which parents and family members make an effort to be present for, the bishop proposed its incorporation as part of a parish-based programme during Transition Year, possibly linked to a project in school.

Addressing the quality of religious culture in Catholic schools, he said such schools are today located within a vast variety of cultural traditions, family arrangements, moral views and convictions.

But he warned against giving in to a "superficial description of decline in religious practice simply in terms of waywardness, bad will or rejection of church authority".

In reality, the Catholic Church is in the process of a major social and cultural transformation, he said.

I believe that was his more polite way of saying "The kids these days don't really have a clue what it's all about" :pac:

desertcircus · 11-02-2015 11:56PM

There are a couple of reasons I'd advise an atheist being pressured by parents or relatives into having a church wedding against doing so. The first is a slightly abstract point, but one which does matter. The unspoken assumption behind the expectation that an atheist should agree to a church wedding is simple - because you don't really believe that stuff, it doesn't matter for you, so you need to compromise and go to the church.

In reality, it does matter, for a multitude of reasons. It matters because it presumes that religious belief is somehow more important or more deserving than a lack of it; it matters because it ignores the fact that a great many atheists are not merely irreligious but actively opposed to the church in question, and expecting someone to push their anger and fury to one side on what should be their day of celebration in order to satisfy your preferences is vile; most importantly, it matters because it asks atheists to speak deliberate untruths in the process of becoming married to the person they love.

There may be atheists who genuinely don't have a problem with it, and if that's the case then there's probably no conflict to speak of anyway, but it's an absolutely legitimate position to regard it as an unspeakable act. I would have been disgusted if anyone in my family had seriously suggested that I should lie publicly, to all the family and friends we'd invited to share in the day, in the same breath as declaring my fidelity for my wife; the idea of it is abhorrent to me, and while I don't presume to speak for other atheists who've reconciled the contradiction, it's a suggestion I cannot take seriously except as an indication that I shouldn't be listening to the person making it. We all lie from time to time, but if there's ever a time we should avoid it at all costs, it's at the altar.*

The second reason I'd be wary of it is a little more day-to-day, but still important. If an atheist agrees to a church wedding - particularly on the basis that it doesn't matter to them since they have no religious belief - then every subsequent decision involving a clash between the godly and the godless will end the same way. If you have children? Those same relatives will want them baptised, and they'll make the exact same arguments they did at the wedding. The same again at communion, confirmation, all the way to that child's own wedding, where the browbeaten, defeated parent tries to convince their own child to have a church wedding for the sake of the same damn relatives. Giving in that first time sets the pattern for every conflict hence, leaving an atheist parent raising a child in a church they don't believe in.

*Well, strictly speaking, it's also in the emergency room when the doctor asks if you're on any medication or drugs that could interact with medicines. Don't lie then either, because that'd be a terrible idea. Also, I know it's not always an altar - ours was more of a large desk, if I remember correctly - but "don't lie at the altar/desk/monument to blood sacrifice/nice hand-carved loveseat" isn't as pithy, so sue me.

Eeden · 12-02-2015 12:05AM

^ how many times can I thank this post?

Tarzana2 · 12-02-2015 12:09AM

Galilea Cold Miner wrote: »

If you add up the religious people and those who are not overly religious but will very much want a traditional wedding the pool of remaining people in Ireland will be quite small.

What are you basing this on? A lot of people on this thread have said they haven't been to a church wedding in years!

12-02-2015 04:10AM

awec wrote: »

Would you not want to go out and face the world on your own for a while, out of your mum and dad's shadow?

I am not having a go at you, but I would be concerned about someone who feels the need to always consult their parents on decisions and has a need to see them every day. That's pretty much still full dependence on the parents at 30 years old. That cannot be healthy.

I don't see them every day as I live a few hours away as it stands but my plan for the future is to settle down and build at home next door to my home house (as many of my close friends have done or are doing). I think it's very sad how people don't want to be close to their parents and have them as part of their day to day lives.

lazygal wrote: »

I'd be very wary of marrying someone who said he would always consult his parents about matters involving money. I've seen relationships ruined because of things like that. There's not a chance I'd tell either set of our parents about how we deal with our finances. At what point will you start making decisions independently of them? Who will you consult when they die?

eviltwin wrote: »

I would be the same, I'd feel undermined knowing my partner needed approval from his parents. It's one thing to get advice from people, it's another to consult them about everything.

Maybe you both over looked some of my post but I said I have mutual financial interests with my parents Hence why there is conversation on it. And in general why would I not consult people who have years of experience on money matters?

People really love cutting their parents out of their lives don't they!!!!

Tarzana2 wrote: »

What are you basing this on? A lot of people on this thread have said they haven't been to a church wedding in years!

Basing it on the fact I've been invited to one wedding that's a civil ceremony in 30 years on this planet. 6 wedding in 2015 and only 1 out of 6 is not a full on traditional wedding.

Wompa1 · 12-02-2015 06:47AM

Been to a load of weddings over the last few years in Ireland. All but one were in a church and out of those, all of the couples involved didn't care about it being in a church and went along with it for elderly relatives sakes.

But that doesn't seem to be the worst part. The expensive part is inviting friends of the families that you don't give a toss about and people from the town you grew up in that you don't even know but would 'offend' if you didn't.

I'm engaged. I'm a non-practicing Catholic, she's a non-practicing Buddhist. We're not going to have a wedding. We'll get the piece of paper and then go traveling for a few weeks. It's too much hassle to have a wedding. Too political. Also, the day isn't really for you. You have to go around thanking people all night.

Half of her family is in Asia, Half of my family is in Ireland and the rest of our families and friends are scattered around the world. It would be impossible to pick a venue that would suit everybody so we're just not having a ceremony or reception at all. We also reason that rather than spending 20k+ on other people, we could spend 10k on ourselves and travel. Hell Yeahhh!

stinkle · 12-02-2015 07:25AM

Galilea Cold Miner wrote: »

People really love cutting their parents out of their lives don't they!!!!

No one said anything about cutting parents out of their lives. My husband married me, not my parents, and vice versa. It's important for two ADULTS to create boundaries and become their own family unit without interference from any third parties. It's also important for extended family members to respect these new boundaries.

Wompa1 · 12-02-2015 07:42AM

Galilea Cold Miner wrote: »

People really love cutting their parents out of their lives don't they!!!!

You gotta pop that t1tty outta ya mouth at some stage.

Parents are your main support structure but when you become an adult you need to become independent. It seems like a lot of Irish men in particular, go home to mammy a few times a month. Us Irish men and the Italians have a reputation built on that...it's a bit sad.

Like others are saying. If you can't take being away from them for too long, you're likely not going to go against them on any of your big decisions if you think it might risk damaging that relationship and comfort.

Pressures around Church weddings

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