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Off Topic Thread too point uh

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    But I quite like drinking cheap alcohol. I am perfectly capable of buying 16 bottles and making them last a month. So why should your lack of will power increase the price of my alcohol consumption?

    Because you have to legislate for the masses. If everyone could master their willpower, laws wouldn't be needed - no theft, fraud, murder, rape, embezzlement...or binge drinking.

    There's always that balance between personal freedom and greater public good.

    TBH IBF, if you're buying your beer in 24-pack slabs, that means you drink cheap lager...in which case you're beyond saving :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Swiwi. wrote: »
    Because you have to legislate for the masses. If everyone could master their willpower, laws wouldn't be needed - no theft, fraud, murder, rape, embezzlement...or binge drinking.

    There's always that balance between personal freedom and greater public good.

    TBH IBF, if you're buying your beer in 24-pack slabs, that means you drink cheap lager...in which case you're beyond saving :pac:

    Personally I don't think restricting personal freedom is ever going to really be for the greater good. In this case there's no actual evidence to support the change really either, if there was a link between alcohol pricing and binge drinking maybe I'd have a shred of sympathy for it.


  • Administrators Posts: 55,122 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Personally I don't think restricting personal freedom is ever going to really be for the greater good. In this case there's no actual evidence to support the change really either, if there was a link between alcohol pricing and binge drinking maybe I'd have a shred of sympathy for it.

    There are none.

    Also, it was in the Fianna Fail manifesto when they got elected that they'd look to protect pubs. I guess they realised that talking about health is a way to pull the wool over people's eyes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    Personally I don't think restricting personal freedom is ever going to really be for the greater good. In this case there's no actual evidence to support the change really either, if there was a link between alcohol pricing and binge drinking maybe I'd have a shred of sympathy for it.

    Yeah, I haven't remotely got the will power (or let's be honest the intelligence or legal background) to enter into the personal freedom vs public good debate.

    I suppose governments have to look like they're doing something.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,634 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Personally I don't think restricting personal freedom is ever going to really be for the greater good. In this case there's no actual evidence to support the change really either, if there was a link between alcohol pricing and binge drinking maybe I'd have a shred of sympathy for it.

    Lots of countries ban below cost selling and it has had an impact. So you think we should be free to buy anything? Guns, drugs, sex, alcohol, cigarettes, people, animals, ivory, the broadcasting rights to the 6 Nations?

    awec wrote: »
    There are none.

    Also, it was in the Fianna Fail manifesto when they got elected that they'd look to protect pubs. I guess they realised that talking about health is a way to pull the wool over people's eyes.


    Fianna Fail aren't in power :pac: I'm not 100% sure I agree this law will work, but I am 100% sure that there was no other cynical background meaning for enforcing it. If they wanted to please pubs and raise revenue they could have just taxed it more, they didn't they just enforced below cost selling laws.


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  • Administrators Posts: 55,122 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Lots of countries ban below cost selling and it has had an impact. So you think we should be free to buy anything? Guns, drugs, sex, alcohol, cigarettes, people, animals, ivory, the broadcasting rights to the 6 Nations?





    Fianna Fail aren't in power :pac: I'm not 100% sure I agree this law will work, but I am 100% sure that there was no other cynical background meaning for enforcing it. If they wanted to please pubs and raise revenue they could have just taxed it more, they didn't they just enforced below cost selling laws.

    Ugh, I meant Fine Gael. :o


  • Posts: 24,816 ✭✭✭✭ Greta Massive Saliva


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Lots of countries ban below cost selling and it has had an impact. So you think we should be free to buy anything?

    Do they? Examples please?

    Note that the question you ask is logically disconnected from the statement. The answer most will give you is no.

    Here is an interesting article about scientific research into below cost selling of alcohol, and the impacts a ban might create.

    This extract stood out
    They estimated that below cost selling would reduce harmful drinkers’ mean annual consumption by just 0.08 per cent – or around three units per year. By contrast, a 45p minimum unit price would reduce consumption by 3.7 per cent or 137 units a year – a 45 times greater effect

    What's so special about alcohol btw? Supermarkets sell milk way below cost, bread, tinned peas etc can all be found at negative margins. Multi-pack bacon to be banned too?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.




    Pixels. Brings back memories. Atari. Amiga.

    No doubt half the forum will have no idea what I'm on about...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    What's so special about alcohol btw? Supermarkets sell milk way below cost, bread, tinned peas etc can all be found at negative margins. Multi-pack bacon to be banned too?

    Well the 'big farm' party are in at the minute, so no. When the 'small farm' party get back in, it may get looked at ;).


  • Posts: 20,606 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Jesus this was awkward watching. Either the editing was off or Ward was getting the scoops in before the price goes up:

    http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/independentie-six-nations-rugby-panel-irish-will-be-beaten-up-but-will-survive-italian-test-30964497.html

    Fluffed the close out too!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,634 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Do they? Examples please?

    Note that the question you ask is logically disconnected from the statement. The answer most will give you is no.

    The question was important, because if IBF is completely libertarian than there is no point in having this discussion with him at all. If you believe nothing should be regulated than it is going to be almost impossible for me to convince you that this specific thing should be regulated. So what I was aiming to discover was whether he agreed in regulating the sale of other things.
    Here is an interesting article about scientific research into below cost selling of alcohol, and the impacts a ban might create.

    This extract stood out


    What's so special about alcohol btw? Supermarkets sell milk way below cost, bread, tinned peas etc can all be found at negative margins. Multi-pack bacon to be banned too?


    You're selectively quoting, that article also states that the UK legislation only affected 0.7% of prices. 99.3% of prices remained exactly the same. Now, I am not saying that is a bad thing, but the success or failure of it needs to be viewed in that context.

    Russia (themselves fond of a drink) and Canada are two examples of countries with minimum unit pricing. Here is some science from the University of British Columbia, based on Canada, which has had it for a number of years, and based on actually looking at existing data, rather than modelling data.

    http://www.ias.org.uk/uploads/pdf/News%20stories/iasreport-thomas-stockwell-april2013.pdf

    Until 2006 we banned all below cost selling. I'm not too bothered about people selling things below cost unless there are massive negative externalities. For instance, I wouldn't be chuffed if Tesco started selling Cigartettes for 5e a pack.


  • Posts: 24,816 ✭✭✭✭ Greta Massive Saliva


    Minimum Unit Pricing is very different, and those differences are discussed and contrasted in the study I linked. I don't have any examples of countries that either a -> banned below cost selling, b -> have had success in doing so.

    (Of course I was selectively quoting, I said it was an extract!)

    I'm extremely libertarian too btw.

    Another thing to note in this is that Ireland's consumption of alcohol is falling, and is actually heading to below EU averages...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,634 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Minimum Unit Pricing is very different, and those differences are discussed and contrasted in the study I linked.

    I'm extremely libertarian too btw.

    The highest fixed cost for an alcohol vendor is duty afaik, so enforcing a ban on below cost selling is effectively preventing a vendor selling below duty which is set by the government. It works out the exact same from the customers point of view.

    So if we're all gonna ninja edit.

    Ban on below cost is effectively a fixed price set by the government but no profit left for the supermarket.

    Minimum unit pricing is effectively a fixed price set by the government allowing the supermarket some profit.

    From the customers point of view, either way it is a fixed price set by the government.


  • Posts: 24,816 ✭✭✭✭ Greta Massive Saliva


    You beat my edit!

    I'll read that paper in the morning and get back to you on it. I'll be very surprised if it's got anything to do with below cost selling though.

    MUP is a very, very different suggestion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,634 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    MUP is a very, very different suggestion.

    But it'll effectively be the same. Our costs are higher than there's so our "not below cost" is similar to their "minimum".

    I also said earlier in the thread, I don't know if it will work but I don't see a huge amount of harm in trying it. The reason I don't see harm is because barely any prices will actually change.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Jesus this was awkward watching. Either the editing was off or Ward was getting the scoops in before the price goes up:

    http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/independentie-six-nations-rugby-panel-irish-will-be-beaten-up-but-will-survive-italian-test-30964497.html

    Fluffed the close out too!

    that was a bit weird :confused:


  • Posts: 24,816 ✭✭✭✭ Greta Massive Saliva


    errlloyd wrote: »
    But it'll effectively be the same. Our costs are higher than there's so our "not below cost" is similar to their "minimum".

    I also said earlier in the thread, I don't know if it will work but I don't see a huge amount of harm in trying it. The reason I don't see harm is because barely any prices will actually change.

    Are you sure about this point?

    Thread over in Politics Café (Like a more serious after hours but not as serious as politics) says otherwise!
    minitrue wrote: »
    The mentioned price (€1/unit +/- 10%) means:

    €1.94 - €2.37 for 500ml @ 4.3% (e.g. can of beer)
    €8.78 - €10.73 for 750ml @ 13% (e.g. bottle of wine)
    €23.63 - €28.88 for 700ml @ 37.5% (e.g. bottle of spirits)
    ...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,634 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Are you sure about this point?

    Thread over in Politics Café (Like a more serious after hours but not as serious as politics) says otherwise!

    Yeah I read that too, but have no source for it. That would surely be MUP as opposed to Ban on Below cost. It's also ridiculous MUP, like seriously, in the UK they are having arguments over 45p, I can't see us bringing in 1e limit. It's either a rumour or speculation by a TD taken out of context.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭Wang King


    Latvian walk into bar with pig on shoulder. Bartender say, “That look delicious!” But pig say, “No. Is Latvian. Taste is similar to dog.”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I'm extremely libertarian too btw.

    I think it would be best if everyone else forgot that I made this post btw so let's pretend this didn't happen, IE do not click, do not respond, at the risk of boring the bejaysus out of everyone present
    I would love to sit down with a few beers with you and discuss this statement in relation to any sort of previous discussions we may or may not have had over the past 2 years or so! And I mean that purely from a philosophical perspective, not questioning the above :D


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  • Posts: 24,816 ✭✭✭✭ Greta Massive Saliva


    I think it would be best if everyone else forgot that I made this post btw so let's pretend this didn't happen, IE do not click, do not respond, at the risk of boring the bejaysus out of everyone present
    I would love to sit down with a few beers with you and discuss this statement in relation to any sort of previous discussions we may or may not have had over the past 2 years or so! And I mean that purely from a philosophical perspective, not questioning the above :D

    nothing to see here other people
    In much the same way I believe that a government would benefit from being a technocracy instead of a democracy, I understand that a 'stable' mix of viewpoints and ethoses is more important for the inclusion and continuance of society. I believe in meritocracy when it comes to jobs (flat out libertarianism, best person wins), but can see beyond the trees when it comes to applying these rules to different scenarios.

    For example, if we consider E-Sports, which is exploding currently. I see zero problem whatsoever in a rich benefactor buying up a team and pumping them full of money. Money => Victory in this scenario (and most other sports too tbh). The reason I see zero problem is that there are very few negative externalities for 'E-Sports as a whole' in this sceario. This is down to the structure of its ecosystem (bedroom players => players playing at LANS => Players joining pro teams) is not a nuclear based system. The bedroom players don't support a "cell" centre and gain mutual benefits from it. It's a sporadic system, with minimal external investment and mentoring. It's almost solely a self-driven exercise to go from nothing to the top.

    Rugby, Soccer and most 'older' physical games are the exact opposite. The ecosystem and development ladder are almost totally nuclear, as in, a club ( or nucleus) attract players into the system and the mutual growth all occurs there. The sport continues and develops as a series of nuclei. Players don't develop singularly, there are nuclei and centres of development which invest time in the players and expect investment back. If we see this system as a multi-temporal system (i.e, each decision/change/affect at this timepoint affects and resonates through all following timepoints) and consider the structure of the system as a whole, we can hypothesise quite easily the impacts and difficulties of unilateral development/investment/growth in the nuclei. The damage to the system as a whole as development centres on the boundaries have to close/die as a result of the flow of talent to the investment centres has a knock on affect on the number of developed players in the next timepoint. Less nuclei => Less players. From the perspective of communities etc, closing clubs can be so drastic as to just stop players who 'might have made it' from having any interest in the game. Geographical placement is important here. Think of the affects of emigration on local GAA teams across the country.

    We don't even necessarily have to hypothesise, because we've seen direct examples of this in English Football.

    Things I hold dear to me, I'm happy to have controls imposed on, so that they can be held dear by people in the next generation etc. I'm happy to have my ideals 'stabilised' and 'mixed' by others when it's patently obvious to me what the intention of the mix is for. Zealots / Extremist views in almost all cases are dangerous imo. Fundamentals are to be considered, not adhered to.


  • Posts: 13,822 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I understood some of those words


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,634 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    For example, if we consider E-Sports, which is exploding currently. I see zero problem whatsoever in a rich benefactor buying up a team and pumping them full of money. Money => Victory in this scenario (and most other sports too tbh). The reason I see zero problem is that there are very few negative externalities for 'E-Sports as a whole' in this sceario. This is down to the structure of its ecosystem (bedroom players => players playing at LANS => Players joining pro teams) is not a nuclear based system. The bedroom players don't support a "cell" centre and gain mutual benefits from it. It's a sporadic system, with minimal external investment and mentoring. It's almost solely a self-driven exercise to go from nothing to the top.

    I am going to take the dive and try and contribute, but the rest of you don't need to.
    I generally agree that investment in E-Sports is a good thing. I am totally looking forward to the day E-sports are main stream enough that I can start including all the whopper leadership, communication, team building and general it literacy skills I developed on my CV :). But again, I worry that the age profile of most players allows a high level of exploitation. You can see from the recent CSGO match fixing scandal, that it doesn't take a lot of money to get them going.

    I see what you mean about E-sports having a much easier ladder than say rugby though. Anyone can take up a game, join a casual level and play easily enough and progress from there right up to the top level step by step without being out of their depth, if they develop nicely.


  • Administrators Posts: 55,122 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    What are we talking about?


  • Posts: 13,822 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Do we have CSGO players amongst us?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Do we have CSGO players amongst us?

    I work with a guy who runs an e-sports team. I've never really been into those games at all because I'm absolutely brutal at all of them, but I have to say it seems intriguing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    I find the very name 'e-sports' so cringe inducing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,634 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Do we have CSGO players amongst us?

    I play some CSGO


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 6,525 Mod ✭✭✭✭dregin


    CS doesn't have the same appeal it once had. Far too many sideshows going on detracting from the "blow the **** out of each other and maybe care about the bomb/hostages ever once in a while" attitude that CS originally had.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Haven't played CS since it was just CS!


This discussion has been closed.
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