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Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

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Comments

  • #902
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,773 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    hynesie08 wrote: »
    Nox, do you still believe that all religions other than Catholicism are "wrong" and that kids should have it forced on them in school?

    Pretty much yes.


  • #903
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    In an attempt to move things on here - because everyone has had their say about the existence of God - surely we are approaching it from the wrong way.

    We should be discussing: what do you mean by "God"?


  • #904
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    In an attempt to move things on here - because everyone has had their say about the existence of God - surely we are approaching it from the wrong way.

    We should be discussing: what do you mean by "God"?
    Every definition you could possibly come up with will be denied by theists, as once you define you can be challenged. "We can't know" is the default for the past few hundred years where theists can't threaten to kill you if you don't agree with them. (well, not here so much anyway)


  • #905
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    I think Stephen Fry is missing the point about people being imbued with Free Will.

    They are free to do as they please but must be accountable for it on judgement day. This is a cornerstore of christianity from my understanding of it.

    As an intellectual, I really don't find Fry that impressive, especially when he misses some fundamental points about things he's criticising. If he had an inside out knowledge of something and then critiqued it fair enough.

    He seems to believe a god if there is one should go around intervening here, there and everywhere, like superman or something. That's not the way it works.


  • #906
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Every definition you could possibly come up with will be denied by theists, as once you define you can be challenged. "We can't know" is the default for the past few hundred years where theists can't threaten to kill you if you don't agree with them. (well, not here so much anyway)

    So it is for the theists to explain what they mean, otherwise they are effectively saying "We don't know what we are talking about".


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  • #907
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    I think Stephen Fry is missing the point about people being imbued with Free Will.

    They are free to do as they please but must be accountable for it on judgement day. This is a cornerstore of christianity from my understanding of it.

    As an intellectual, I really don't find Fry that impressive, especially when he misses some fundamental points about things he's criticising. If he had an inside out knowledge of something and then critiqued it fair enough.

    He seems to believe a god if there is one should go around intervening here, there and everywhere, like superman or something. That's not the way it works.
    Why doesn't it work like that? Since god is apparently omnipotent, he can do all these things if he so wishes.
    We're also back to free will then I see. Do you agree then you can't pray to god to make any person do anything?


  • #908
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    As an intellectual, I really don't find Fry that impressive

    Oooh ye cheeky monkey.


  • #909
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    As an intellectual, I really don't find Fry that impressive, especially when he misses some fundamental points about things he's criticising. If he had an inside out knowledge of something and then critiqued it fair enough.
    Such as?
    (I think Fry is sensible but ultimately over-rated too BTW)


  • #910
    Eutow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭Eutow


    hynesie08 wrote: »
    Nox, do you still believe that all religions other than Catholicism are "wrong" and that kids should have it forced on them in school?

    If so you prove everything Stephen Fry said to be right.

    Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »
    Pretty much yes.


    A religious fundamentalist, just what the world needs. Anyone not Catholic should go to the church of Nox to gain re-neducation.



  • #911
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    I think Stephen Fry is missing the point about people being imbued with Free Will.

    They are free to do as they please but must be accountable for it on judgement day. This is a cornerstore of christianity from my understanding of it.

    As an intellectual, I really don't find Fry that impressive, especially when he misses some fundamental points about things he's criticising. If he had an inside out knowledge of something and then critiqued it fair enough.

    He seems to believe a god if there is one should go around intervening here, there and everywhere, like superman or something. That's not the way it works.

    What's free will got to do with bone cancer in children, or insects that eat your eyes? I don't think he actually ever mentioned people being mean to each other.


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  • #912
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Do you agree then you can't pray to god to make any person do anything?

    Don't know what he thinks, but I'd imagine one answer would be: "You can pray for a person to remove themselves from the blindfold of ignorance after which they can utilise their free will to act according to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ".

    Whether it will work or not, or if it is even an internally coherent argument within the confines of Christian theology is another matter, but it's an answer of sorts.


  • #913
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Don't know what he thinks, but I'd imagine one answer would be: "You can pray for a person to remove themselves from the blindfold of ignorance after which they can utilise their free will to act according to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ".

    Whether it will work or not, or if it is even an internally coherent argument within the confines of Christian theology is another matter, but it's an answer of sorts.
    No, it isn't internally consistent to say we have free will but god modifies that free will on a whim.
    Then again logic and reasoning apparently aren't applicable to spiritual debate, so monkey fish percolator jig jig jig.


  • #914
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Oooh ye cheeky monkey.

    That came across wrong. Fry is presented by many people as an intellectual, presenting QI etc (no mention of a team of researchers behind the scenes).

    I wasn't saying I was an intellectual, only that Fry allegedly is.

    I'm a bit stupid myself!

    Happy?


  • #915
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    No, it isn't internally consistent to say we have free will but god modifies that free will on a whim.
    Then again logic and reasoning apparently aren't applicable to spiritual debate, so monkey fish percolator jig jig jig.

    Ah yes, but the point is that you can pray for people to have access to further information so they can make a more informed choice.

    Having said that, the leaflets from some supposed Christians have been the work of the Devil.


  • #916
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Eutow wrote: »
    A religious fundamentalist, just what the world needs. Anyone not Catholic should go to the church of Nox to gain re-neducation.


    But he would do it well intentionally cos his beliefs are right and eeeeeeeeeeeevery body else is wrong.


  • #917
    TireeTerror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,271 ✭✭✭TireeTerror


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Run1jpZvS4


  • #918
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,773 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Eutow wrote: »
    A religious fundamentalist, just what the world needs. Anyone not Catholic should go to the church of Nox to gain re-neducation.


    Nice attempt at trying to tie Irish Catholics in with the animals in ISIS by using the term "fundamentalist". The word has no place in relation to me. I don't even mention religion except in reply to others on boards.


  • #919
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Ah yes, but the point is that you can pray for people to have access to further information so they can make a more informed choice.
    Seems a bit of a cop out that one. Would this include automatically include giving them more information about atheism and humanism, or is all the information coming from one side here?


  • #920
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    [QUOTE=Shurimgreat;94148189 Fry is presented by many people as an intellectual, presenting QI etc (no mention of a team of researchers behind the scenes).[/QUOTE]

    Apart from full billing on the credits, references to them on the show (including occasional mentions via an earpiece on what is a recorded programme), books authored by them promoted by the BBC explaining exactly what it is they do, and their own team on a different prime-time BBC2 show, Only Connect?

    Pish and tosh, good sir, bless, and all that.


  • #921
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    What's free will got to do with bone cancer in children, or insects that eat your eyes? I don't think he actually ever mentioned people being mean to each other.

    I will try to explain.

    First of all, things like the Holocaust is purely down to free will. People, many of the people behind it were raised in christianity and yet completely chose to go against it and carry out the Holocaust. Was God supposed to suddenly put a stop to it, which in turn would completely ruin another cornerstone which is faith as opposed to imperical evidence?

    I'm not condoning or condemning christianity here, just outlining how its supposed to work.

    Bone cancer in children, and other similar illnesses, it presents people a chance to show their charitable side and attempt to cure it or help out. Its about presenting challenges to be solved.

    Think of the story of the good Samaritan for example. No downtrodden begger, no good samaritan.

    "God" can't create a perfect world, only people can.

    The God of the Christian faith is not one that goes around saying "you can't do that", "you can't do this". In fact he has no real power in this life, he can only punish in the next one.

    (don't shoot the messenger)


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  • #922
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Seems a bit of a cop out that one. Would this include automatically include giving them more information about atheism and humanism, or is all the information coming from one side here?

    No, atheists and humanists can pray for that one themselves.

    Hang on...


  • #923
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Apart from full billing on the credits, references to them on the show (including occasional mentions via an earpiece on what is a recorded programme), books authored by them promoted by the BBC explaining exactly what it is they do, and their own team on a different prime-time BBC2 show, Only Connect?

    Pish and tosh, good sir, bless, and all that.

    Fair enough. But for as long as I remember him appearing on shows like the LLS, he was presented as this guy who was quite eloquent, he even claims it himself, ie people assumed he had authority when he shouted at them, has a mastery of vocabulary and is a bit of a snob intellectually wise. Only a lot of what he comes out with is nonsense, and a lot of the time he doesn't come across as bright. But we mustn't rock the boat.


  • #924
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Maximo Grumpy Leotard wrote: »
    Nice attempt at trying to tie Irish Catholics in with the animals in ISIS by using the term "fundamentalist". The word has no place in relation to me. I don't even mention religion except in reply to others on boards.
    WTF are you on about. The word "fundamentalist" has been used for years to describe any number of theist extremists.
    When does the Maximo Grumpy Leotard Standard English Dictionary come out with this new definition?
    Pathetic.


  • #925
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Bone cancer in children, and other similar illnesses, it presents people a chance to show their charitable side and attempt to cure it or help out. Its about presenting challenges to be solved.

    Yes, it's a wonderful thing.

    I'm developing new forms of cancer for children in my basement as we speak, to give us all something to do.


  • #926
    TireeTerror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,271 ✭✭✭TireeTerror


    Shurimgreat wrote: »

    Bone cancer in children, and other similar illnesses, it presents people a chance to show their charitable side and attempt to cure it or help out. Its about presenting challenges to be solved.

    Mind-Blown.jpg

    Why am I posting links to images instead of the image? I know how to do it but its not working.


  • #927
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Bone cancer in children, and other similar illnesses, it presents people a chance to show their charitable side and attempt to cure it or help out. Its about presenting challenges to be solved.
    Pure rot.
    I suppose raping children gives priests a chance to repent?


  • #928
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Yes, it's a wonderful thing.

    I'm developing new forms of cancer for children in my basement as we speak, to give us all something to do.

    OK, I can see you need a bit of work. Right here goes.

    Most people accept bone cancer has got nothing to do with "god". Correct?


  • #929
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Fair enough. But for as long as I remember him appearing on shows like the LLS, he was presented as this guy who was quite eloquent, he even claims it himself, ie people assumed he had authority when he shouted at them, has a mastery of vocabulary and is a bit of a snob intellectually wise. Only a lot of what he comes out with is nonsense, and a lot of the time he doesn't come across as bright. But we mustn't rock the boat.
    Again, such as? Please, rock away.


  • #930
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    OK, I can see you need a bit of work. Right here goes.

    Most people accept bone cancer has got nothing to do with "god". Correct?
    Damn square.
    Because god doesn't exist.


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  • #931
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Pure rot.
    I suppose raping children gives priests a chance to repent?

    Again missing the whole point of free will. I have a feeling its one of those relatively complex concepts that will forever fly right over your head.


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