‘People think I’m the devil for having an abortion, but it’s the only option that&

Penny Tration · 04-02-2015 02:29PM

DuffmanGuy wrote: »

It's not brave to kill the defenceless. It is a cowardly act to kill another human being incapable of defending herself.
Abortion is violence against women.

No, it isn't. The woman chooses it.

It's not a human being. It's a foetus.

Get away with your emotive terms.

muddypaws · 04-02-2015 02:29PM

pwurple wrote: »

What are people talking about?

There is no adoption here anymore. There were maybe a handful of children adopted last year? Mostly by family members (grandmothers etc).

Since the hague convention foreign adoptions are halted for irish couples.

Loads of adoptive couples on the panels, who went through checks, tests, classes that no biological parent has ever had to do, all ready and able, available. No children there for them though.

Telling someone to adopt here, is pretty ludicrous. It doesn't happen. Zero need for orphanages.

You should probably read the thread. Apparently women should stop having abortions and go through pregnancy and then have the baby adopted. As there are more women who travel to have abortions each year than there are people looking to adopt, orphanages are the answer, even though the children wouldn't be orphans.

traprunner · 04-02-2015 02:31PM

muddypaws wrote: »

You should probably read the thread. Apparently women should stop having abortions and go through pregnancy and then have the baby adopted. As there are more women who travel to have abortions each year than there are people looking to adopt, orphanages are the answer, even though the children wouldn't be orphans.

Clear as mud!

DuffmanGuy · 04-02-2015 02:31PM

sup_dude wrote: »

Forcing an unwanted pregancy on a woman isn't? If a woman wants one, how is it violence against herself?
Also, many here don't see a foetus as a human being until it is born.

The science of biology is clear - All mammals begin life with fertilisation. There is no scientific argument against this, just people burying their heads in the sands of denial.
(some might not accept that the Earth is round, but that doesn't make their opinion valid).

It's not violence against herself, it's violence against the unborn child.

muddypaws · 04-02-2015 02:32PM

traprunner wrote: »

Clear as mud!

Exactly

Ave Sodalis · 04-02-2015 02:34PM

DuffmanGuy wrote: »

The science of biology is clear - All mammals begin life with fertilisation. There is no scientific argument against this, just people burying their heads in the sands of denial.
(some might not accept that the Earth is round, but that doesn't make their opinion valid).

It's not violence against herself, it's violence against the unborn child.

All mammals begin life as an egg and sperm. That doesn't make masturbation or periods bad. Yes they need to fertilise. Does this make the pill bad, as this prevents that?

Nobody is arguing you need to fertilise to being life. That doesn't make a foetus life until it's born.

Also, another poster claimed it was violence against women.

DuffmanGuy · 04-02-2015 02:34PM

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

No, it isn't. The woman chooses it.

It's not a human being. It's a foetus.

Get away with your emotive terms.

Exactly what species do you think a human foetus is ?? (HINT: The answer's in the question).
The science is clear, unless you're a science denier like the religious zealots.

Violence is violence even when chosen.

traprunner · 04-02-2015 02:34PM

So let's see where much of this argument is coming from.....who here is a Roman Catholic? :pac:

Ave Sodalis · 04-02-2015 02:36PM

DuffmanGuy wrote: »

Exactly what species do you think a human foetus is ?? (HINT: The answer's in the question).
The science is clear, unless you're a science denier like the religious zealots.

Violence is violence even when chosen.

What science are you talking about? You keep quoting science but have yet to produce any "science"

bjork · 04-02-2015 02:36PM

kylith wrote: »

Ok, so 600 couples approved to adopt according to that article. What happens the other 4,400 kids? Will there be 600 couples looking to adopt every year or will that number drop after they've adopted one child?

It's not as simple as saying 5000-600=4,400 children :pac:

There are lots of influences and barriers to the adoption process. The usual civil service apathy seems to be the main one

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/changes-to-adoption-law-have-shattered-my-hopes-of-becoming-a-parent-1.1716740

DuffmanGuy · 04-02-2015 02:36PM

sup_dude wrote: »

All mammals begin life as an egg and sperm. That doesn't make masturbation or periods bad. Yes they need to fertilise. Does this make the pill bad, as this prevents that?

Nobody is arguing you need to fertilise to being life. That doesn't make a foetus life until it's born.

Also, another poster claimed it was violence against women.

All Mammals begin life as a fertilised egg (ot zygote).
A human foetus satisfies all the requirements for life - as described in biology. To say otherwise is just plain nonsense.

DuffmanGuy · 04-02-2015 02:37PM

sup_dude wrote: »

What science are you talking about? You keep quoting science but have yet to produce any "science"

The science of biology. Ever heard of it?

superelliptic · 04-02-2015 02:37PM

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

In her Irish Times interview she said that she is 24 years old and it is not the right time for her to have a child that she cannot provide for. Ultimately she wants to have a life before she is willing to settle down, which IMO is fair enough.

Personally I agree with her decision. She was being responsible with a long term boyfriend, she was on the pill so the pregnancy was out of the blue. I would have exactly the same reaction as she did if that had happened to me at that young age, and I would have no problem if a girlfriend of mine decided that she wanted to abort (so long as we both talked it through at least). Ultimately she, with the support of her partner made the best decision for themselves and I think that women that want this option should have it without stigma.

Sauce: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tara-they-shouldn-t-have-control-over-my-uterus-1.2089490

kylith · 04-02-2015 02:38PM

DuffmanGuy wrote: »

Exactly what species do you think a human foetus is ?? (HINT: The answer's in the question).

Is an egg a chicken?

DuffmanGuy · 04-02-2015 02:38PM

kylith wrote: »

Even if the woman has chosen to have an abortion? Can one assault oneself?

Abortion kills a separate human being. Unless you believe that a pregnant woman has 2 brains, 2 nervous systems, 2 different sets of DNA, 2 beating hearts?

Ave Sodalis · 04-02-2015 02:39PM

DuffmanGuy wrote: »

All Mammals begin life as a fertilised egg (ot zygote).
A human foetus satisfies all the requirements for life - as described in biology. To say otherwise is just plain nonsense.

If it does, why are there miscarriages? Why can't it survive outside of a womb? A foetus does not satisfy all requirements for life until it can live.

DuffmanGuy wrote: »

The science of biology. Ever heard of it?

Funny you should mention it. I have actually, which is why I'm questioning you.

DuffmanGuy · 04-02-2015 02:39PM

kylith wrote: »

Is an egg a chicken?

A fertilised Egg is a young chicken. Simple.

DuffmanGuy · 04-02-2015 02:41PM

sup_dude wrote: »

If it does, why are there miscarriages? Why can't it survive outside of a womb? A foetus does not satisfy all requirements for life until it can live.

Funny you should mention it. I have actually, which is why I'm questioning you.

A miscarriage is death by natural causes, the reasons are numerous.

You've heard of biology, but are you ignoring it to suit your beliefs?

traprunner · 04-02-2015 02:41PM

DuffmanGuy wrote: »

A fertilised Egg is a young chicken. Simple.

Then why do they taste so different? :pac:

smash · 04-02-2015 02:42PM

DuffmanGuy wrote: »

It's not violence against herself, it's violence against the unborn child.

The World Health Organization defines violence as "the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation"

A foetus is not a person. It has no real identity or even personality.

Ave Sodalis · 04-02-2015 02:42PM

DuffmanGuy wrote: »

A miscarriage is death by natural causes, the reasons are numerous.

You've heard of biology, but are you ignoring it to suit your beliefs?

On the contrary, I'm using it. Can you take a foetus out of the womb and expect it to survive? No, you can't. Then how does it forfill all requirements for life when it cannot live.

Also, since you insist on using science, why in Biology (hey, look there's that word!), is anything unborn referred to as a fetus and not as an unborn child?

DuffmanGuy · 04-02-2015 02:44PM

kylith wrote: »

Which is exactly the attitude that has women in South America imprisoned for life for miscarrying.

Which is nothing like that attitude, and you're lame attempt to dismiss science rather than present a sustainable opinion.

kylith · 04-02-2015 02:44PM

bjork wrote: »

It's not as simple as saying 5000-600=4,400 children :pac:

There are lots of influences and barriers to the adoption process. The usual civil service apathy seems to be the main one

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/changes-to-adoption-law-have-shattered-my-hopes-of-becoming-a-parent-1.1716740

Oh, I agree it's not so simple as mere subtraction and I do feel sorry for those who may never be parents because of the changes in adoption law. The fact remains, however, that there would simply not be enough adoptive homes for the 5,000+ aborted pregnancies every year and that I have yet to see any suggestion of a viable alternative from those who would ban abortion in favour of adoption.

DuffmanGuy · 04-02-2015 02:45PM

sup_dude wrote: »

On the contrary, I'm using it. Can you take a foetus out of the womb and expect it to survive? No, you can't. Then how does it forfill all requirements for life when it cannot live.

We all need food and a suitable environment to survive. To says that makes us not living is plainly false.

DuffmanGuy · 04-02-2015 02:47PM

smash wrote: »

A foetus is not a person. It has no real identity or even personality.

You've lost the 'living' argument, so you move onto a philosophical one.
Identity and personality are not scientific signs of living.

kylith · 04-02-2015 02:48PM

DuffmanGuy wrote: »

Abortion kills a separate human being. Unless you believe that a pregnant woman has 2 brains, 2 nervous systems, 2 different sets of DNA, 2 beating hearts?

Except it's not a separate human being, it is completely incapable of idependant living and does not have a functioning brain or nervous system.

DuffmanGuy wrote: »

A fertilised Egg is a young chicken. Simple.

So, if I take a freshly laid, fertilised hen's egg and boot it over a wall I should be done for animal cruelty?

Penny Tration · 04-02-2015 02:48PM

DuffmanGuy wrote: »

We all need food and a suitable environment to survive. To says that makes us not living is plainly false.

What food can a 12 week old foetus eat, if taken from the mother's body? What incubator will safely house it to term?

None, and none.

Ave Sodalis · 04-02-2015 02:48PM

DuffmanGuy wrote: »

We all need food and a suitable environment to survive. To says that makes us not living is plainly false.

That's awful logic and would not stand up in this science you keep going on about.

DuffmanGuy · 04-02-2015 02:48PM

sup_dude wrote: »

On the contrary, I'm using it. Can you take a foetus out of the womb and expect it to survive? No, you can't. Then how does it forfill all requirements for life when it cannot live.

Also, since you insist on using science, why in Biology (hey, look there's that word!), is anything unborn referred to as a fetus and not as an unborn child?

Foetus is defined as the 'Unborn Young'.

bodice ripper · 04-02-2015 02:49PM

DuffmanGuy wrote: »

Foetus is defined as the 'Unborn Young'.

if its unborn, best to step in before it gets born so.

‘People think I’m the devil for having an abortion, but it’s the only option that&

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