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Is Ireland's middle class disappearing?

13»

Comments

  • #62
    Venus In Furs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭Venus In Furs


    No obviously, it isn't disappearing.


  • #63
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,772 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Venus In Furs wrote: »
    No obviously, it isn't disappearing.
    More like emigrating.


  • #64
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,312 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    I'm a bogger from a long line of boggers. What highway, avenue or back passage is open to that barrister that isn't open to me?


    Still,there are boggers and there are boggers. A bogger like myself from the lush pastures of Tipperary would definately have an advantage over a bogger with a Louth accent or a bogger from some stone walls and rocks county like west Clare or Mayo. Anyway it all boils down to putting yourself about and who you know and if 'you're not too bad looking either' it helps.


  • #65
    Chemical Byrne
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭Chemical Byrne


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Still,there are boggers and there are boggers. A bogger like myself from the lush pastures of Tipperary would definately have an advantage over a bogger with a Louth accent or a bogger from some stone walls and rocks county like west Clare or Mayo. Anyway it all boils down to putting yourself about and who you know and if 'you're not too bad looking either' it helps.

    I think boggers may form a class of their own. Example a small farmer who physically works the land himself would probably be a peasant (rural working class) while a bigger farmer who employs labour would be very much middle class.


  • #66
    gnf_ireland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭gnf_ireland


    I think there is a difference between the traditional social definition of middle class and the financial based one that people tend to use.

    My assessment of the financial based one would be along the following lines:
    Upper => Wealth of minimum 5m/10m - Inherited wealth at least ~150 years in the making
    Nouveau riche/Capitalist => Wealth of minimum 5m/10m - Self Made/Inherited wealth within the last <~150 years
    Upper Middle (Comfortable) => senior professional/income ~150k-250k/house worth >750k and investments worth ~500k-1m (or tracking to this depending on age)
    Middle (Squeezed) => working/employed with income between say 50k and 150k/ own house worth ~300k+ and investments worth ~25k-50k
    Working =>working/employed on average industrial wage/own house or renting/minimal investments or none [in debt]
    Entitled =>not interested in working, live of social welfare/petty crime/no investments or in debt


    The traditional social definition is pretty much summed up as:
    Gabrielle Spicy Scumbag wrote: »
    Traditionally, the notion of middle class was defined not so much by money as by education. The middle class was taxed under a separate schedule in the common law system and the tax definition included (from what I remember) doctors, lawyers, teachers, army officers, university lecturers and priests. I still prefer to use this definition as it actually means something - that the middle class has special knowledge and overall superior education which is highly valued in society. That way an electrician earning 100,000 a year is still working class where he (objectively) belongs.
    If you look at certain government forms that you have to get witnessed, they have a list of professionals included. Tends to include Bank Manager also. However it would not include say modern professions such as technology based roles. These are traditionally the middle classes, assuming they were working in that area and not just educated in it

    In reality, we have no upper class other than what we inherited from the british. We have Nouveau riche, and many are not as 'riche' as they would like us to believe


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  • #67
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,772 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    gnf_ireland wrote: »
    I think there is a difference between the traditional social definition of middle class and the financial based one that people tend to use.
    Wealth and class have an uncomfortable relationship in that wealth is irrelevant to class directly; after all, an impoverished duke is still a duke and a skanger who's won the Lotto is still a skanger.

    However, indirectly, wealth does allow one to purchase class, over time (and lack of wealth will likely result in it's loss). For example, the first generation makes the initial fortune, but they themselves will still simply be seen as nouveau riche. However, they will be able to send their children to the 'right' schools where they will adopt the habits of a different class, mix and marry into it and over time, presuming continued fortune, rise until they also posses lineage or breeding (the ability to trace their bloodline) which is generally required for upper class status.

    That's how it's always generally worked. If you look at the Rothchilds, Hapsburgs or De Medicis of this World, they all trace themselves back to someone who effectively was a fortunate and talented working class (or equivalent) nouveau riche.

    And it can also work downwards. The idiot children of a wealthy member of one class may have an advantage over those without their inheritance, but their children won't. I've seen this with nobility, where especially the older generations have no understanding of working for a living and so they live off inheritance; selling off first the jewelry and art, then property and finally their descendants have to go out and make a living like everyone else.
    In reality, we have no upper class other than what we inherited from the british. We have Nouveau riche, and many are not as 'riche' as they would like us to believe
    Pretty much. As a culture we're actually quite hostile to any idea of an upper class, as a result. This can be demonstrated by our rejection of 'educated' public figures or that we're one of the few countries in the World that lacks any honours system.


  • #68
    gnf_ireland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭gnf_ireland


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    As a culture we're actually quite hostile to any idea of an upper class, as a result. This can be demonstrated by our rejection of 'educated' public figures or that we're one of the few countries in the World that lacks any honours system.


    Sadly in terms of the honours system, the way Irish society works we would end up giving honours to people based on political connections rather that what they have done in life to deserve it.

    Thankfully in the last 20 odd years we have seen a move away from the role of the president being one as a retirement ground for politicians (present one could be placed into this category but think he is actually suited to the position). Prior to Mary Robinson, you only really had Douglas Hyde and Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh who were not politicians previously. I think if we could get to a stage that we place more value the role of the President, the honours system would be good for the country.

    Sadly, there are two things stopping this:
    1. Irish people cannot seem to accept someone deserves recognition for hard work and effort. The begrudgery of Irish people will never cease to amaze me
    2. We would need to have the honours system also have the ability to annul honours - similar to what was done with Fred Goodwin in the UK. I have to admit that was honourable and would question would it have been done here !


  • #69
    dar100
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭dar100


    Chemical Byrne wrote: »
    To say there is no class structure in this country is ridiculous. While correct, there is no official structure to say there this is a classless society is plain wrong. To do so would be to suggest that a high power barrister from Killiney is on the same social footing as some scrote ball from from a council estate in Ballymun. That clearly is not the case in reality. There are classes whether we like it or not.

    The "scrote ball" from Ballymun, may have an impeccable set of morals, values, and be extremely connected to the wider community. He may be secure financially, have a good social outlook, and be on the way to an BA or MA, in university.

    Our friend the " high powered Barrister", may be in debt u[p to his neck, using alcohol and drugs to cope, about to lose the big house, only interested in himself and his own agenda, while being somewhat like yourself, looking down his nose at others, who don't seem to be part of some entity, which you don't seem to be describing the parameters of, to well.

    It's all about the worldview


  • #70
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,772 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    dar100 wrote: »
    while being somewhat like yourself, looking down his nose at others, who don't seem to be part of some entity, which you don't seem to be describing the parameters of, to well.
    Neither did he look down his nose at anyone. That's just your issue.


  • #71
    Chemical Byrne
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭Chemical Byrne


    dar100 wrote: »
    The "scrote ball" from Ballymun, may have an impeccable set of morals, values, and be extremely connected to the wider community. He may be secure financially, have a good social outlook, and be on the way to an BA or MA, in university.

    Our friend the " high powered Barrister", may be in debt u[p to his neck, using alcohol and drugs to cope, about to lose the big house, only interested in himself and his own agenda, while being somewhat like yourself, looking down his nose at others, who don't seem to be part of some entity, which you don't seem to be describing the parameters of, to well.

    It's all about the worldview

    Well, if your read my other post #47 you'd see that I state that such general examples as I gave were just to demonstrate the point and were not universally applicable.

    Read the full thread before coming at me BRO.


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  • #72
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    wretcheddomain wrote: »
    Conspiracy forum -->

    Could you explain why you wrote that?


  • #73
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    You know the way you have more specific compass points like East-North-East ....so ought we not have a bit more precision that the tired and tawdry "working, middle, upper", or "lower, less-lower, higher". Shouldn't there be a more graduated scale allowing for different grades from grinding destitution to opulence?

    Surely 3 grades can't cover the spectrum in earnest.


  • #74
    BlatentCheek
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭BlatentCheek


    To be honest class in Ireland has come to be an entirely subjective term based on perception rather than reality:

    For instance the typical Irish Independent reader perceives themselves as middle class. A couple in this category in their 30's might be struggling to pay mortgage and childcare on around €40,000 each but because they have degrees and are "well-spoken" they consider themselves middle class. They may look down on "working-class" people, by which they mean lifetime social welfare claimants.

    An ESB worker in his 50's might be on €85,000. He has his house paid off and takes several foreign holidays a year but because he has no degree and because of his background and accent he perceives himself as working-class. When voting he may resent a particular candidate as "posh", because the particular candidate uses too many long words and speaks with a "posh" accent.

    A large farmer in his 60's in a rural county has numerous other local business interests and along with about four other families his has run pretty much everything in and around the nearby small town for a very long time. All of his children went to college on the grant and became teachers, lawyers, accountants and auctioneers, he set them all up very comfortably locally using his contacts. He and all of his family resent "D4 snobs" in Dublin and perceive themselves as honest, humble farming stock.

    A man in his 20's in a low income urban area left school at 15 and ran up a criminal record. Has claimed social welfare since 18. Has a baby with a girlfriend but can't live with her as it would affect benefits. See's himself as working class but has never worked a day in his life.


  • #75
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Wealth and class have an uncomfortable relationship in that wealth is irrelevant to class directly; after all, an impoverished duke is still a duke and a skanger who's won the Lotto is still a skanger.

    However, indirectly, wealth does allow one to purchase class, over time (and lack of wealth will likely result in it's loss). For example, the first generation makes the initial fortune, but they themselves will still simply be seen as nouveau riche. However, they will be able to send their children to the 'right' schools where they will adopt the habits of a different class, mix and marry into it and over time, presuming continued fortune, rise until they also posses lineage or breeding (the ability to trace their bloodline) which is generally required for upper class status.

    That's how it's always generally worked. If you look at the Rothchilds, Hapsburgs or De Medicis of this World, they all trace themselves back to someone who effectively was a fortunate and talented working class (or equivalent) nouveau riche.

    And it can also work downwards. The idiot children of a wealthy member of one class may have an advantage over those without their inheritance, but their children won't. I've seen this with nobility, where especially the older generations have no understanding of working for a living and so they live off inheritance; selling off first the jewelry and art, then property and finally their descendants have to go out and make a living like everyone else.

    Pretty much. As a culture we're actually quite hostile to any idea of an upper class, as a result. This can be demonstrated by our rejection of 'educated' public figures or that we're one of the few countries in the World that lacks any honours system.

    Its ... Its
    Sans apostrophe.

    I hail from a dreadfully lower part of Dublin and even I can recognise such errant and appalling grammar.
    Would you slur while speaking, Sir? Would you?
    Yet you allow your pen to dribble such crass abominations?
    You, Sir, are a cad.

    Now I'm going for a pint and hopefully secure the attentions of a leery and bawdy woman.

    I suggest you learn your place.


  • #76
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Baldy Conscience wrote: »
    Disappearing - nope, just yesterday I upgraded my car from an Astra to an Avensis, got a raise in the last six months and planning on a couple of foreign holidays this year.

    Mortgage is grand, and should be paid off in ten years or so

    To paraphrase the Anti-Anti Campaigners...."Shame,Shame,SHAME-On You".......all captured on grainy U-tube footage outside yer gaff,as the Avensis gets key'd by the mob !!! :p


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #77
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    We might have fewer middle class, but they're getting a lot fatter. So really, it seems about even to me.


  • #78
    bnt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,245 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Middle Class used to be financially "comfortable", with things under control and likely to stay that way. That is no longer the case. You can be on a median single income, modest house with spouse and 2.4 children, yet struggling to make ends meet. Why? Different opinions, but in my opinion the elephant in the room is the cost of housing (renting or buying). There is no good reason for housing to be such a drain on the economy, as a proportion of income.

    Government resting upon the will and universal suffrage of the people has no anchorage except in the people's intelligence.

    — Grover Cleveland



  • #79
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,772 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Egginacup wrote: »
    I suggest you learn your place.
    I never needed to learn my place. I was born to it.

    Look up - that's me waving down at you ;)


  • #80
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,309 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    Anytime I hear the words "middle class" I instantly think of the guy I met two years ago.... (we were doing a course together)
    At that point he was 25, on the dole and hadn't worked since 2008 (5 years) His last and only ever job was working as a postman for a couple of months. Yet he would describe himself as middle class.

    So the whole middle class debate? I take it with a pinch of salt


  • #81
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I never needed to learn my place. I was born to it.

    Look up - that's me waving down at you ;)

    Places are earned and not inherited.


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  • #82
    darkdubh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,628 ✭✭✭darkdubh


    Chemical Byrne wrote: »
    What a crock of it!

    The middle class bend over backwards working their bollocks off to pay though the nose for everything, education, housing the whole lot, and get ZERO assistance from the state. They are the ones who really have lost the most over the last 7 years.

    In actual fact it is the "working" classes who've come out with little to no loss. Can't/won't work, no bother! Dole, housing, fags, cheap beer, outings to the bookies etc all in limitless lifetime supply courtesy of the the taxes paid through the noses of the middle class.

    Do you even know the meaning of the term working class?If you think the above applies to everyone from a working class background then you need to remove your blinkers.


  • #83
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,772 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Places are earned and not inherited.
    Really? In what meritocratic utopia?

    One of the things about social class is that while merit (or lack thereof) allow for social mobility over generations, it was inherited more often than not. This has been the case ever since the classical era (with patrician, plebeian and later equestrian classes), through to the middle era (nobility, peasantry and later third estate, middle or merchant class) and the modern era (upper, middle and lower or working class).

    If you said places should be earned and not inherited, then I'd agree with you, but given historical evidence to the contrary (not to mention current practice), I'd have to point out that you are unfortunately factually incorrect.

    And all in response to a humorous exchange (underlined by the smiley), so I'm not altogether sure why you felt the need to reply so, in the first place.
    darkdubh wrote: »
    Do you even know the meaning of the term working class?
    I think this thread is probably proof that there is a lot of confusion and disagreement over what social class actually means.


  • #84
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Really? In what meritocratic utopia?

    One of the things about social class is that while merit (or lack thereof) allow for social mobility over generations, it was inherited more often than not. This has been the case ever since the classical era (with patrician, plebeian and later equestrian classes), through to the middle era (nobility, peasantry and later third estate, middle or merchant class) and the modern era (upper, middle and lower or working class).

    If you said places should be earned and not inherited, then I'd agree with you, but given historical evidence to the contrary (not to mention current practice), I'd have to point out that you are unfortunately factually incorrect.

    And all in response to a humorous exchange (underlined by the smiley), so I'm not altogether sure why you felt the need to reply so, in the first place.

    I think this thread is probably proof that there is a lot of confusion and disagreement over what social class actually means.


    Yes I mean places should be earned and not inherited. Unfortunately we will have no real way of determining real merit when we have such disparity in our school system. Social Darwinism is a sad reality unfortunately.


  • #85
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,772 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Yes I mean places should be earned and not inherited. Unfortunately we will have no real way of determining real merit when we have such disparity in our school system. Social Darwinism is a sad reality unfortunately.
    Even were we to introduce a 100% inheritance tax, parents will still seek and find ways to give their offspring unfair advantages, so the only way to ensure true meritocracy would be for the state to take and raise all children, which isn't likely to happen.

    Ultimately, we're still only human.


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