Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Almost 500 cases of female genital mutilation identified in just one month in England

124

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,660 ✭✭✭COYVB


    spikeS wrote: »
    it's not for us in the majority to say what is ok for you cause we might not like it

    You need to google the word "democracy"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    COYVB wrote: »
    You need to google the word "democracy"

    Democracy is not always right


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,660 ✭✭✭COYVB


    spikeS wrote: »
    Democracy is not always right

    But that's our culture. It's not for you to say what's okay because you might not like it

    See what I did there?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    COYVB wrote: »
    But that's our culture. It's not for you to say what's okay because you might not like it

    See what I did there?

    Yes but as it's our culture it's okay for us to fix any issues with it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,660 ✭✭✭COYVB


    spikeS wrote: »
    Yes but as it's our culture it's okay for us to fix any issues with it.

    You make precisely zero sense here. Democracy is okay because it's part of our culture, except when it isn't, and can be used to reflect the opinion of the majority, except when it disagrees with something from another culture?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭Wurzelbert


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    Its okay as their descendants didnt survive to complain about it I guess.

    yes exactly...which brings us back to the whole cutting topic...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    COYVB wrote: »
    You make precisely zero sense here. Democracy is okay because it's part of our culture, except when it isn't, and can be used to reflect the opinion of the majority, except when it disagrees with something from another culture?

    Democracy and capitalism have severe issues and need to be looked at on how to fix those issues.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    spikeS wrote: »
    Democracy is not always right
    Hmm, OK, then I'll be taking the B option in my previous post.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,660 ✭✭✭COYVB


    spikeS wrote: »
    Democracy and capitalism have severe issues and need to be looked at on how to fix those issues.

    But cultures that feature female (or male) genital mutilation don't have issues?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    COYVB wrote: »
    But cultures that feature female (or male) genital mutilation don't have issues?

    They do but it's not our culture to change


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭shalalala


    spikeS wrote: »
    They do but it's not our culture to change

    So we need to change our culture to accept this?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    shalalala wrote: »
    So we need to change our culture to accept this?

    We need to be open minded and accept others for who they are


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,660 ✭✭✭COYVB


    spikeS wrote: »
    They do but it's not our culture to change

    If someone comes from another country and attempts to bring their culture with them wholesale, then THEY are the ones affecting the culture of their host country, which you maintain is a no no, so you've defeated your own argument.

    Your logic is incredibly flawed here


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    COYVB wrote: »
    If someone comes from another country and attempts to bring their culture with them wholesale, then THEY are the ones affecting the culture of their host country, which you maintain is a no no, so you've defeated your own argument.

    Your logic is incredibly flawed here

    We are the majority we don't get to stamp out what we don't like, if we where on equal footing then yes we can debate the issues.

    We need to get the government on equal footing with more Muslims in it so they can support their side


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,660 ✭✭✭COYVB


    spikeS wrote: »
    We are the majority we don't get to stamp out what we don't like, if we where on equal footing then yes we can debate the issues.

    again, you need to google democracy
    spikeS wrote: »
    We need to get the government on equal footing with more Muslims in it so they can support their side

    No, we don't. They want to stay hardcore muslim they can go to a country with muslim laws. Just like any irishman in a muslim country can feck off back to ireland if they don't like the laws of the land there


  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭ALiasEX


    spikeS wrote: »
    We need to be open minded and accept others for who they are
    If people from a culture that practices cannibalism move in next door, you could offer them your children. You wouldn't want to offend them, would you?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    ALiasEX wrote: »
    If people from a culture that practices cannibalism move in next door, you could offer them your children. You wouldn't want to offend them, would you?

    I guess as long as they only ate their own children, the poster would be content.
    :rolleyes:

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    Find it hard to take spikeS' posts seriously. Even hardcore lefties don't believe these things. One would almost imagine the posts are designed to make liberals look bad.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,660 ✭✭✭COYVB


    Find it hard to take spikeS' posts seriously. Even hardcore lefties don't believe these things. One would almost imagine the posts are designed to make liberals look bad.

    My initial feeling was that spikeS is 14-17 years old, and is in the stage where a utopia seems possible


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,188 ✭✭✭DoYouEvenLift


    spikeS wrote: »
    We are the majority we don't get to stamp out what we don't like, if we where on equal footing then yes we can debate the issues.

    We need to get the government on equal footing with more Muslims in it so they can support their side


    So only a Muslim can support Muslims politically?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭Wurzelbert


    Find it hard to take spikeS' posts seriously. Even hardcore lefties don't believe these things. One would almost imagine the posts are designed to make liberals look bad.

    yeah, and to do a little bit of trolling and provoke folks around here...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Grayson wrote: »
    Our customs are no more or less important/better than anyone else's.

    Nonsense.

    In any given country, the customs of that country are more important than any imported customs. Any new arrivals must adapt to the existing customs and not expect the host society to adapt to theirs. A failure, by both the authorities and certain immigrant groups, to respect and enforce this is one of many reasons that Europe is now a deeply troubled and divided powder keg.

    Our culture is clearly superior to the culture of many other societies. I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that our society is morally superior to, for example, Saudi Arabia's. In Ireland, we do not torture bloggers for blasphemy or treat women as something between a child and livestock. We even allow women to drive and refrain from jailing homosexuals for being homosexual.

    Not all customs are equal. Not all cultures are equal. If you want to live in a secular, free, democratic, liberal European society then leave the more negative aspects of your original culture, such as FGM, firmly behind you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,141 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    shalalala wrote: »
    So we need to change our culture to accept this?
    no

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    no

    Ok people!

    /THREAD


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe



    Still you'll get the "What about men"-ers though on these debates, which blows the mind.
    A little of topic, but,
    I've only read this far in the thread so far. But I just thought I'd point out that the first "what about men" related post in the thread is this one. Seems to be an ongoing trend. First posts of a "what about menz" nature in threads being someone coming into a thread and saying "Oh there'll be what about men posts along soon". Then when someone bites posts saying "hah see, the thread is being made about men now. Why oh why does this happen!?".

    Not to pick on you or anything Venus, you know I love you really, you just happen to be the one that did it.

    Back on topic. Cutting children's genitals up is fvcked up and should be stamped out with the fury of a supernova.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,544 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    "The Cruel Cut" it was called. I remember watching it when it was on TV. It is horrendous watching, but should nearly be required watching for everyone.

    Also, the Penn & Teller: BULLSH*T! episode surrounding Circumcision (of boys) should also be required viewing.

    Just shows how horrible and barbaric both of these "operations" are.

    If you are an adult and want these things done to you. Go ahead. Knock yourself out. Be happy.

    But when adults inflict these mutilations on children. Nope. No. No way. F*ck that. Religion or culture be damned. Do not mutilate your children's genitals, for f*ck sake!

    As a lad who's happy chappy still has his head gear, I had no idea just how awful male circumcision was until I saw that 'Bull****' episode. I nearly lost my lunch.

    I am firmly in the no camp to both forms of mutilation.

    How any adult could sanction that sort of shit on their kid is beyond me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Wurzelbert wrote: »
    yeah, and to do a little bit of trolling and provoke folks around here...

    This thread was being trolled from five minutes in by the usual suspects.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,758 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    This thread was being trolled from five minutes in

    By some of the same people now eagerly denouncing the latest troll...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 936 ✭✭✭JaseBelleVie


    Tony EH wrote: »
    As a lad who's happy chappy still has his head gear, I had no idea just how awful male circumcision was until I saw that 'Bull****' episode. I nearly lost my lunch.

    I am firmly in the no camp to both forms of mutilation.

    How any adult could sanction that sort of shit on their kid is beyond me.

    Even sadder, most parents don't sanction it. It is just done. I've heard of cases where parents in the United States had to fight, I mean literally fight, the doctors and nurses with legal threats to make sure their son did not get circumcised.

    All too often in US hospitals, baby boys are simply taken off to get weighed, measured, etc. and are then circumcised at the same time, before being returned to their parents.

    Sounds crazy, but it's true. Sickeningly true. But yeah, that episode of Penn & Teller is a proper eye-opener. Also, the fact that most baby boys in the United States are circumcised WITHOUT any kind of pain killing medication! I nearly faint at just the thought of the pain of it. :(


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    spikeS wrote: »
    Our western culture has messed up theirs with slavery and wars, if they leave to get away from the damage we did to their home we should be careful no to damage their culture now



    They are not trying to circumcise our kids only their own in accordance with their culture

    Children are not property.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭Venus In Furs


    Attempting to prevent child abuse = "forcing our western values on others".

    Ah students... bless.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    spikeS wrote: »
    We need to be open minded and accept others for who they are

    No we danm well don't!
    If people are behaving in a way that is simply barbaric and it is in your power to stop it then you do. Should we allow Saudi women to be stoned to death for adultery here because that is Saudi culture? They are here and while they are they can follow our laws. If they don't want to dink then fine, but if they want to mutilate children then not acceptable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    spikeS wrote: »
    We need to be open minded and accept others for who they are

    Have a read of this;
    A groundbreaking new report by UNICEF finds that, while much progress has been made in abandoning female genital mutilation/cutting, millions of girls are still at risk – and sets out key steps needed to eliminate the practice for once, and for all.

    NEW YORK, United States of America, 22 July 2013 – “I don’t want any part of my body to be cut. I don’t want to be circumcised,” says 10-year old Kheiriya Abidi from Boorama town, North-West Somalia.

    Kheiriya is terrified of the blood, the pain and physical torture she will have to suffer if her genitals are cut.

    The pressure on her to be cut is mounting every day, and she is often ridiculed and insulted by her friends for being ‘different’. Female genital mutilation/cutting (FGM/C) is rooted deep in Somali culture; the practice is nearly universal. Girls and women are made to have their external genitalia removed fully or partially– some when they are just infants, others when they hit puberty – in the name of preserving female honour, chastity, beauty, ensuring their marriageability.

    But Kheiriya refuses to be one of them. She is standing strong in the face of criticism with support from her family and community health workers who are part of a larger movement to eliminate FGM/C.

    Increasing opposition

    A groundbreaking new report by UNICEF shows that more girls like Kheiriya, as well as women and men, are saying no to FGM/C than ever before, and more communities than ever are abandoning the centuries-old tradition.

    In Female Genital Mutilation/Cutting: A statistical overview and exploration of the dynamics of change, UNICEF compiles and analyses data from 74 nationally representative surveys that were conducted over a 20-year period in 29 countries across Africa and the Middle East in which FGM/C is practised. 

    “This report is the most comprehensive compilation of statistics and data analysis on FGM/C to date,” says UNICEF Statistics and Monitoring Specialist Claudia Cappa. “It’s extremely important because it illustrates, for the first time, what we know about how widespread is the practice is, the attitudes surrounding the practice and the reasons why this practice is continued. It’s also the first report that includes data for countries like Iraq for which we didn’t have national figures.”

    The findings of the report point to a sharp decline in FGM/C in numerous countries in which it is practised. Prevalence has dropped by as much as almost half among adolescent girls in Benin, the Central African Republic, Iraq, Liberia and Nigeria. “In most of the countries surveyed, majority of girls and women who have undergone the practice do not see benefits to it and think that the practice should stop,” says Ms. Cappa. “More mothers are aware that FGM/C can lead to their daughter’s, or a girl’s, death. So, there is a better understanding of the consequences, which, in itself, is very important progress.”


    Full article here - http://www.unicef.org/protection/57929_69881.html

    Still adamant that we should accept FGM?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭Wurzelbert


    Have a read of this;



    Full article here - http://www.unicef.org/protection/57929_69881.html

    [...]

    at least there seems to be a decline in many countries already, a good start...and then what’s next? will unicef turn its attention to the more extreme forms of male circumcision? or is it after all just another “feel good” pastime for some “intact” western ladies to worry about the poor little girls in far-away lands? same as adopting snow leopards and all the rest? one can only hope people in fgm countries really get it and manage to change this one aspect of their cultures once and for all...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Just out of curiosity, is there any medical reason for FGM?
    With men, I know two different medical reasons. One was a kid who needed a circumcision due to something going wrong (I can't recall exactly what) and another man who needed the procedure after a pretty nasty tear. Both of these were made with a doctors opinion and done in a hospital through anesthetic so obviously doesn't compare to certain cultural procedures.
    I've never heard of a medical reason for FGM.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭Wurzelbert


    sup_dude wrote: »
    [...]
    I've never heard of a medical reason for FGM.

    because there is none.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭shalalala


    Wurzelbert wrote: »
    because there is none.

    From what I can remember the main purpose of it is to take all sexual pleasure away from the woman because if she cannot enjoy sex, then why would she cheat or have sex before marriage? It is, in their mind to keep a woman pure while tightening everything to heighten pleasure for men.

    It started off being men in societies doing this and now it is the women in families kidnapping the girls to get this mutilation carried out because of course they are afraid that no one would want to marry the girl or god forbid would enjoy sex outside of a marriage.

    It is some seriously twisted logic and causes many health problems depending on the level of fgm carried out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    sup_dude wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, is there any medical reason for FGM?
    It's used for the treatment of clitoral phimosis and vulvar cancer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    The clitoris is cut out as a cure for clitoral phimosis?? Get up the yard! :roll:

    (And how many cases of clitoral phimosis are there, like, ever? I know several boys or men in my own family who have had various degrees of phimosis as a boy, most not requiring surgery. I don't know of a single girl who has had any form of phimosis that she or her mother were aware of. It may exist, but I suspect it is a genital malformation. Does the existence of surgery for undescended testicles (again, infinitely more common than clitoral phimosis) mean we can open young boys' testes for some non medical reason?)

    Same as for cancer - mastectomy as validation for forcibly removing young girls' breasts?

    Reem Alsalem UNSR Violence Against Women and Girls: "Very concerned about statements by the IOC at Paris2024 (M)ultiple international treaties and national constitutions specifically refer to women & their fundamental rights, so the world (understands) what women -and men- are. (H)ow can one assess fairness and justice if we do not know who we are being fair and just to?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    volchitsa wrote: »
    The clitoris is cut out as a cure for clitoral phimosis?? Get up the yard! :roll:

    (And how many cases of clitoral phimosis are there, like, ever? I know several boys or men in my own family who have had various degrees of phimosis as a boy, most not requiring surgery. I don't know of a single girl who has had any form of phimosis that she or her mother were aware of. It may exist, but I suspect it is a genital malformation. Does the existence of surgery for undescended testicles (again, infinitely more common than clitoral phimosis) mean we can open young boys' testes for some non medical reason?)

    Same as for cancer - mastectomy as validation for forcibly removing young girls' breasts?
    Both womens and mens genitals are modified for both medical and non-medical reasons.
    It's a fact that you need to learn to accept.
    Your strawman arguments above do nothing to disprove this.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    Both womens and mens genitals are modified for both medical and non-medical reasons.
    It's a fact that you need to learn to accept.
    Your strawman arguments above do nothing to disprove this.

    Yes we do actually already understand this thank you. What we are discussing is the morality of these procedures.


  • Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭qt3.14


    sup_dude wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, is there any medical reason for FGM?
    With men, I know two different medical reasons. One was a kid who needed a circumcision due to something going wrong (I can't recall exactly what) and another man who needed the procedure after a pretty nasty tear. Both of these were made with a doctors opinion and done in a hospital through anesthetic so obviously doesn't compare to certain cultural procedures.
    I've never heard of a medical reason for FGM.
    Wurzelbert wrote: »

    Read back up a few pages. Two different studies found it reduces the rate of HIV contraction by a statistically signifigant amount.
    Doesn't mean we should be doing it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭spikeS


    qt3.14 wrote: »
    Read back up a few pages. Two different studies found it reduces the rate of HIV contraction by a statistically signifigant amount.
    Doesn't mean we should be doing it.

    Hiv is a huge problem in Africa where is done


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    spikeS wrote: »
    Hiv is a huge problem in Africa where is done

    What the thread is about is actually FGM in England. Read the first post please. As for Africa I suspect that if the woman can't have sex or avoids it because she has been mutilated that might reduce her HIV risk.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    obplayer wrote: »
    As for Africa I suspect that if the woman can't have sex or avoids it because she has been mutilated that might reduce her HIV risk.
    Actually the HIV reduction was studied in prostitutes. Those that were "circumcised"/mutilated had a lower rate of infection(and at a higher level than seen in men who were "circumcised"/mutilated). Still not an excuse or reason for the practice.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 936 ✭✭✭JaseBelleVie


    Will peeling all of my skin off my body reduce my risk of skin cancer? Because I might go for it!

    Also, ripping my eyeballs out of my head will mean I'll never go short-sighted.

    Tearing my toenails out means I'll never get an ingrown toenail.

    Having my lungs removed means I'll never get lung cancer.

    Et cetera, et cetera, ad infinitum.

    Preventative medicine is fine in most cases. But not when it involves cutting out pieces of children's bodies! Or even adults' bodies.

    F*ck that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    obplayer wrote: »
    Yes we do actually already understand this thank you.
    People have claimed the opposite, so this isn't as understood as you think.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭Wurzelbert


    qt3.14 wrote: »
    Read back up a few pages. Two different studies found it reduces the rate of HIV contraction by a statistically signifigant amount.
    Doesn't mean we should be doing it.

    in science there is a study for everything, and much depends on how, by whom and for what purpose a study is done...there are studies that link the spread of aids to fgm...like these guys or that article...and the who (probably the most authoritative source here) would negate any positive effects of fgm as well...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,366 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    shalalala wrote: »
    From what I can remember the main purpose of it is to take all sexual pleasure away from the woman because if she cannot enjoy sex, then why would she cheat or have sex before marriage? It is, in their mind to keep a woman pure while tightening everything to heighten pleasure for men.

    It started off being men in societies doing this and now it is the women in families kidnapping the girls to get this mutilation carried out because of course they are afraid that no one would want to marry the girl or god forbid would enjoy sex outside of a marriage.

    It is some seriously twisted logic and causes many health problems depending on the level of fgm carried out.

    I dont agree with it but if she was found to be sexually active or have a child the family would have to support her. So its more case of god forbid she becomes a burden on the family. You have to see this from their cultural perspective no matter how much you dont like it.


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Lillianna Numerous Undergarment


    It's not Muslim culture it's a regional culture, and cultural relativism can f*ck right off when it comes to child abuse, particularly when it causes insane number of complications later in life for the girls up to and including death


  • Advertisement
Advertisement