Leo Varadkar for Taoiseach

BoatMad · 23-01-2015 12:48PM

floggg wrote: »

The funny thing is people somehow think irish politicians are somehow a unique political animal.

Show me any country (bar the Scandinavians, because they are all perfect) who are happy with their politicians or don't consider them self interested and untrustworthy political creatures.

have a look at 2015 Edelman Trust Barometer http://www.edelman.com/insights/intellectual-property/2015-edelman-trust-barometer/trust-around-world/

The scandavians arnt too happy either, Ireland is however a basket case for trust.!

BoatMad · 23-01-2015 12:49PM

Trolley crisis isn't solvable without a massive reorganisation of the Irish health service, not easily done

jobbridge4life · 23-01-2015 12:52PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Trolley crisis isn't solvable without a massive reorganisation of the Irish health service, not easily done

Exactly the problem with politics at the moment is that we are facing some very serious problems of an institutional and infrastructural nature, whether from debt, to education, to trolleys. These problems and their solutions do not fit easily into election cycles and unless the public are willing to take a long run view we may never effectively remedy these issues.

BoatMad · 23-01-2015 12:58PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Exactly the problem with politics at the moment is that we are facing some very serious problems of an institutional and infrastructural nature, whether from debt, to education, to trolleys. These problems and their solutions do not fit easily into election cycles and unless the public are willing to take a long run view we may never effectively remedy these issues.

Correct +1

we have become a electorate with the attention spans of months. None is interested in tearing down the health service and rebuilding a modern efficient one. Just look at all the nonsense re cancer centres of excellence and regional hospitals. We simply don't want to or can't accept the bigger picture.

In the morning , you could send the elderly ( as most are) , "bed blockers" home, but of course that would cause an outcry " they sent me ma home etc". I was in Vincents a few years ago for a few weeks , you could see the issues in a matter of minutes, the solutions however are costly , complex and have long lead times.

Its easy for people rant and rave, and shout about "fix this " and that . But when the solutions take time and cause serious disruptions, then we are all up in arms again.

We have a health system the way to is, because its the way we want it.

DeJa VooDoo · 23-01-2015 01:02PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Correct +1

we have become a electorate with the attention spans of months. None is interested in tearing down the health service and rebuilding a modern efficient one. Just look at all the nonsense re cancer centres of excellence and regional hospitals. We simply don't want to or can't accept the bigger picture.

In the morning , you could send the elderly ( as most are) , "bed blockers" home, but of course that would cause an outcry " they sent me ma home etc". I was in Vincents a few years ago for a few weeks , you could see the issues in a matter of minutes, the solutions however are costly , complex and have long lead times.

Its easy for people rant and rave, and shout about "fix this " and that . But when the solutions take time and cause serious disruptions, then we are all up in arms again.

We have a health system the way to is, because its the way we want it.

That's bollox.

The HSE has been a clusterf*ck since mehole set it up and we've been crying 'fix it' since then.
How long must it take for this country to deliver a properly functioning health service?

You're blaming the electorate because 'that's the way we want it'?

Give me a break FFS.

Good to see though that under FG there's been an 11% increase in management and still not enough frontline staff to run it efficiently.
Brilliant.

take everything · 23-01-2015 01:05PM

Burn the bondholders!
Not another red cent!

Good man Leo.

BTW I like the guy but I don't like how these myths take hold.

floggg · 23-01-2015 01:05PM

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

That's bollox.

The HSE has been a clusterf*ck since mehole set it up and we've been crying 'fix it' since then.
How long must it take for this country to deliver a properly functioning health service?

You're blaming the electorate because 'that's the way we want it'?

Give me a break FFS.

Good to see though that under FG there's been an 11% increase in management and still not enough frontline staff to run it efficiently.
Brilliant.

Well the electorate only gets the politicans it deserves/chooses.

aidan24326 · 23-01-2015 01:09PM

floggg wrote: »

I don't like FG myself, but in fairness if (and that's assuning the comparison is accurate) the trolley crisis was as bad in 2004 when the country was in the midst of a boom as it is today when we are coming out of a bust, then it does put the scale of the problem into context.

At least in 2004 throwing money at the problem was a viable solution.

And throw money at it is what they did, however throwing money at the health system isn't even half the battle, there's a huge amount of reform needed and a lot of vested interests resistant to reform.

floggg wrote: »

He is young, high profile, articulate and well regarded. He is a potential contender for FG leadership in the future but at the minute that's where it begins and ends.

He likely needs a few more years and accomplishments to earn the leadership spot, and will have to earn the nod over his other rivals.

If and when he does that, he would also need to convince the country his Larry deserve to be returned as the majority party.

He certainly has the potential to do all those things, but potential and ability are entirely different things.

Let's give him a few more years and see how he goes before we start handing him the job.

Since when were accomplishments necessary? Enda Kenny has been in Dail Eireann for over 39 years, a remarkably long tenure notable by an almost complete absence of any real political achievement. Enda is leader because he manages to say nothing and stand for nothing, safe and bland in otherwords. Leo might be too awkward for a role that requires such careful choreography.

BoatMad · 23-01-2015 01:17PM

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

That's bollox.

The HSE has been a clusterf*ck since mehole set it up and we've been crying 'fix it' since then.
How long must it take for this country to deliver a properly functioning health service?

You're blaming the electorate because 'that's the way we want it'?

Give me a break FFS.

Sorry, this is exactly the issue i make

its far too simplistic to just scream " clusterf%6K" , what you are doing is demanding solutions but not in any way trying to understand the issues

The HSE may be or may not be an inefficient management system, but the problems of trolleys are directly related to hospital bed availability

Hospital bed availability is a complex subject, Ireland has approx 3 beds per 1000 population, a figure comparable with Scandinavians countries but significantly lower then the germanic countries at between 6 and 8, so clearly bed numbers per se are not a good indication of health service deliverable quality.

The solution in ireland is

(a) Ensure major trauma hospitals can release beds to trauma victims , this requires a network of extensive home support systems or respite homes or nursing homes. All of which either have to be built or undergo extensive rebuilding

(b) Remove the concept of consultants private beds or the whole concept of semiprivate or private beds in such major hospitals, This has major implications both contractually, legally and finance as the hospitals are heavily dependant on the private insurance industry to support their costs

(c) Build, staff and establish local health centres, that can take the load of major hospitals, aid the development of larger doctor surgeries to act as mini A&Es. Take policy decisions to remove minor accident patients and trivial follow up visits from major trauma hospitals

(d) Shut down inadequate regional centre/hospitals and concentrate trauma facilities in major hospital centres and then expand these. The availability of beds in larger more efficient hospitals is whats needed.

Trollies in themselves are not the issue ( lets call them movable beds), many A&E cases are dealth with overnight, whether these should be beds or trollies is debatable. Hospitals are not hotels.

The problem is many of these solutions, would cause industrial action, require massive capital and current spending injections, and cause significant disruption in the meantime, Just like Luas, you can't build a rail line through a city without breaking things, the health service is the same.

The problem is the public has no stomach for it. SO you and others take the easy route and shout " down with them" sort of thing. Thats typical of the electorate short-term-ism. We want the gain, but will not take the pain. Thats why I said " we get what we want"

Grayson · 23-01-2015 01:24PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry, this is exactly the issue i make

its far too simplistic to just scream " clusterf%6K" , what you are doing is demanding solutions but not in any way trying to understand the issues

The HSE may be or may not be an inefficient management system, but the problems of trolleys are directly related to hospital bed availability

Hospital bed availability is a complex subject, Ireland has approx 3 beds per 1000 population, a figure comparable with Scandinavians countries but significantly lower then the germanic countries at between 6 and 8, so clearly bed numbers per se are not a good indication of health service deliverable quality.

The solution in ireland is

(a) Ensure major trauma hospitals can release beds to trauma victims , this requires a network of extensive home support systems or respite homes or nursing homes. All of which either have to be built or undergo extensive rebuilding

(b) Remove the concept of consultants private beds or the whole concept of semiprivate or private beds in such major hospitals, This has major implications both contractually, legally and finance as the hospitals are heavily dependant on the private insurance industry to support their costs

(c) Build, staff and establish local health centres, that can take the load of major hospitals, aid the development of larger doctor surgeries to act as mini A&Es. Take policy decisions to remove minor accident patients and trivial follow up visits from major trauma hospitals

(d) Shut down inadequate regional centre/hospitals and concentrate trauma facilities in major hospital centres and then expand these. The availability of beds in larger more efficient hospitals is whats needed.

Trollies in themselves are not the issue ( lets call them movable beds), many A&E cases are dealth with overnight, whether these should be beds or trollies is debatable. Hospitals are not hotels.

The problem is many of these solutions, would cause industrial action, require massive capital and current spending injections, and cause significant disruption in the meantime, Just like Luas, you can't build a rail line through a city without breaking things, the health service is the same.

The problem is the public has no stomach for it. SO you and others take the easy route and shout " down with them" sort of thing. Thats typical of the electorate short-term-ism. We want the gain, but will not take the pain. Thats why I said " we get what we want"

One of the largest causes of bed shortages is a lack of primary care out of hours. If someone get ill, especially if they are old, the only place to go is the A&E. They all have to be admitted and take up trolleys/beds.

MayoAreMagic · 23-01-2015 01:28PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Varadkar is given credit as a straight shooter. I don;t agree. With that observation. You are not a straight shooter if you wait until it is absolutely clear that the public have completely rejected the rest of the Government's spin to say what was obvious from day one just so you can make maximum political gain. Less straight more shrewd.

Absolutely. We would be far better off with a guy who stated what he believed, got it wrong, admitted as much and set about changing. The above is the hallmark of someone who simply wants power as opposed to someone who wants to improve things. What he does is very calculated. Even this whole 'coming out' saga. I wonder if hospital trolleys had reached an all time low instead of an all time high, would we have heard about that? I fully believe we wouldn't.

BoatMad · 23-01-2015 01:33PM

Grayson wrote: »

One of the largest causes of bed shortages is a lack of primary care out of hours. If someone get ill, especially if they are old, the only place to go is the A&E. They all have to be admitted and take up trolleys/beds.

I would not agree, the problem is what to do with these people, when they are initially treated and are now stable. ( i.e. the next day or two). IF they get a bded , it can be very difficult for a hospital to discharge them, especially if the person has ( or claims ) to have no outside assistance. When I was in vincents every public ward had old people , with no assigned doctor, merely "residing" in the bed.

I agree and I have said it we need to build health centres, and doctors surgeries that are 24/7 mini A&E systems, rather like the excellent medi-Doc systems I have experienced in athlone. It can be done, its very expensive and resource intensive. We also have a society that has become conditioned to turn up at hospitals at the drop of a hat, not to mention the usual friday night collection of drunks and misfits just looking to sleep off a hangover ( had two of them beside me last time in Vincents)

DeJa VooDoo · 23-01-2015 01:38PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry, this is exactly the issue i make

its far too simplistic to just scream " clusterf%6K" , what you are doing is demanding solutions but not in any way trying to understand the issues

The HSE may be or may not be an inefficient management system, but the problems of trolleys are directly related to hospital bed availability

Hospital bed availability is a complex subject, Ireland has approx 3 beds per 1000 population, a figure comparable with Scandinavians countries but significantly lower then the germanic countries at between 6 and 8, so clearly bed numbers per se are not a good indication of health service deliverable quality.

The solution in ireland is

(a) Ensure major trauma hospitals can release beds to trauma victims , this requires a network of extensive home support systems or respite homes or nursing homes. All of which either have to be built or undergo extensive rebuilding

(b) Remove the concept of consultants private beds or the whole concept of semiprivate or private beds in such major hospitals, This has major implications both contractually, legally and finance as the hospitals are heavily dependant on the private insurance industry to support their costs

(c) Build, staff and establish local health centres, that can take the load of major hospitals, aid the development of larger doctor surgeries to act as mini A&Es. Take policy decisions to remove minor accident patients and trivial follow up visits from major trauma hospitals

(d) Shut down inadequate regional centre/hospitals and concentrate trauma facilities in major hospital centres and then expand these. The availability of beds in larger more efficient hospitals is whats needed.

Trollies in themselves are not the issue ( lets call them movable beds), many A&E cases are dealth with overnight, whether these should be beds or trollies is debatable. Hospitals are not hotels.

The problem is many of these solutions, would cause industrial action, require massive capital and current spending injections, and cause significant disruption in the meantime, Just like Luas, you can't build a rail line through a city without breaking things, the health service is the same.

The problem is the public has no stomach for it. SO you and others take the easy route and shout " down with them" sort of thing. Thats typical of the electorate short-term-ism. We want the gain, but will not take the pain. Thats why I said " we get what we want"

I agree with most of your post there, however every minister has promised to 'fix' the system of healthcare but it's still broken.

We have a second rate health service so we are 'taking the pain' as you put it, problem is that we're not seeing the gain despite the massive amount of money spent on it.

Basically, you're conceding that we will never have a properly functioning health service.

Baggy Trousers · 23-01-2015 01:40PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Exactly the problem with politics at the moment is that we are facing some very serious problems of an institutional and infrastructural nature, whether from debt, to education, to trolleys. These problems and their solutions do not fit easily into election cycles and unless the public are willing to take a long run view we may never effectively remedy these issues.

Yes but these major problems existed in 2011 - the heavy lifting should have been done then. FG/Lab are too afraid to do anything meaningful now.

jmayo · 23-01-2015 01:40PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Make no mistake he is a shrewd politician, he picks his battles and he is not some kind of new age political saviour. That said, if himself and Stephen Donnelly started a party together I'd be interested.

Yeah the stephen donnelly who has been an advocate for bailouts for people not paying their mortgages.:rolleyes:

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

That's bollox.

The HSE has been a clusterf*ck since mehole set it up and we've been crying 'fix it' since then.
How long must it take for this country to deliver a properly functioning health service?

You're blaming the electorate because 'that's the way we want it'?

Give me a break FFS.

Good to see though that under FG there's been an 11% increase in management and still not enough frontline staff to run it efficiently.
Brilliant.

A good few posters on this website drew attention to the HSE fookups at the time of the 2007 general election.
Remember the fookups like PPARS, the cancer misdiagnosis, the huge numbers on trolleys were pre 2007.

But a huge chunk of posters (representative of the electorate as a whole) couldn't give a rats ass and just told us how rich they were, how rich their relatives were what with all the building that was going on, how great the country was under bertie and how he
had built the magnificent celtic tiger.

If most of the electorate really gave a s**t about the health service bertie, harney and mehole would have been swinging from lampposts.
Nevermind the likes of reilly.

Grayson wrote: »

One of the largest causes of bed shortages is a lack of primary care out of hours. If someone get ill, especially if they are old, the only place to go is the A&E. They all have to be admitted and take up trolleys/beds.

From what I can see primary care is the GP filling out prescriptions, often rolling ones, for minor ailments.

Annasopra · 23-01-2015 01:43PM

golfball37 wrote: »

I don't think the old guard root and branch members of FG will accept him as their leader because of his sexuality.

I would have thought the same maybe 2-3 years ago. Not now.

DeJa VooDoo · 23-01-2015 01:43PM

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Yes but these major problems existed in 2011 - the heavy lifting should have been done then. FG/Lab are too afraid to do anything meaningful now.

The way Varadkar and FG go on, you'd swear they were only elected last week.

They're almost 4 years there now and still it's the other fella's fault.

The Bart Simpson defence of 'I didn't do it' seems to be their answer...

sh1tstirrer · 23-01-2015 01:43PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Both have pretty middle of the road accents.
What is tortuous about either?

In the pantheon of accents, both speak better than your healy-Raes/ Mattie Magraths of this world.

At least the Healy Rae's aren't ashamed of their original accents.

BoatMad · 23-01-2015 01:46PM

A good few posters on this website drew attention to the HSE fookups at the time of the 2007 general election.
Remember the fookups like PPARS, the cancer misdiagnosis, the huge numbers on trolleys were pre 2007.

But a huge chunk of posters (representative of the electorate as a whole) couldn't give a rats ass and just told us how rich they were, how rich their relatives were what with all the building that was going on, how great the country was under bertie and how he
had built the magnificent celtic tiger.

If most of the electorate really gave a s**t about the health service bertie, harney and mehole would have been swinging from lampposts.
Nevermind the likes of reilly.

Like this rant is a thought out position on reforming the health service, look at the proportion of tax that is spent in health, its huge.

Harney is my view was about the only one that actually tried to break the status quo, the consultants had law and strikes on their side and ultimately beat her. Thats the problem, entrenched interests . Doctors nurses, management all want the thing fixed, AS long as their interest are protected. That can't be done. Its not the fault of ministers, thats too simplistic an argument.

DeJa VooDoo · 23-01-2015 01:47PM

jmayo wrote: »

If most of the electorate really gave a s**t about the health service bertie, harney and mehole would have been swinging from lampposts.
Nevermind the likes of reilly.

Unfortunately we don't do that here..........It's a pity.;)
Much easier to blame someone else, the big bad troika for instance.
FG will tell you that their hands were tied from the start.

Funnily enough the biggest f*ck up's started happening once the troika 'left'.

FG aren't fit to govern Ireland, never were and never will be.

They got elected in 2011 by a desperate electorate with a massive protest vote to get the FFailures out.

BoatMad · 23-01-2015 01:49PM

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

Unfortunately we don't do that here..........It's a pity.;)
Much easier to blame someone else, the big bad troika for instance.
FG will tell you that their hands were tied from the start.

Funnily enough the biggest f*ck up's started happening once the troika 'left'.

FG aren't fit to govern Ireland, never were and never will be.

They got elected in 2011 by a desperate electorate with a massive protest vote to get the FFailures out.

After the next gov F&^cks up in the electorate estimation , inset SF , FF or whatever in your post and repost in 2020 or so

The_Valeyard · 23-01-2015 01:49PM

golfball37 wrote: »

I don't think the old guard root and branch members of FG will accept him as their leader because of his sexuality.

The other side of that argument is that we shouldn't all be giving him false praise and adoration because he is a gay minister, we should view his record and ability to do the job.

MayoAreMagic · 23-01-2015 01:49PM

BoatMad wrote: »

We also have a society that has become conditioned to turn up at hospitals at the drop of a hat, not to mention the usual friday night collection of drunks and misfits just looking to sleep off a hangover ( had two of them beside me last time in Vincents)

Absolutely. The amount of alcohol-related issues cluttering up the system is a real problem. Id propose that all such issues, that were not deemed life-threatening or accidental etc, should carry a premium cost that isn't covered by medical cards etc. A type of loan to cover your treatment that you have to pay back. Obviously people suffering from alcoholism aren't the target here.

TheDoc · 23-01-2015 01:52PM

Oddly enough his straight taking front seems to remove a lot of critique on his actual achievements and performance.

His move to Health was shrewd on the part of Kenny. Many a politician has been broken there and if ever you want to maybe halt the rise in popularity of a potential succesor...put them in Health.

If Varadker come out relatively squeeky clean he will have a good shout at heading the party. The likelihood is he won't. Shrewd tactics by Kenny to be fair.

Varadker has had relatively poor performance in Transport and not off to a good start in health. I'd argue that unless he actually achieves something of note...talk of Taoiseach is well wide of the mark.

floggg · 23-01-2015 01:52PM

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Yes but these major problems existed in 2011 - the heavy lifting should have been done then. FG/Lab are too afraid to do anything meaningful now.

And exactly where would they have hotten either the money or political capital needed to do any heavy lifting in 2011?

TheDoc · 23-01-2015 01:55PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Absolutely. The amount of alcohol-related issues cluttering up the system is a real problem. Id propose that all such issues, that were not deemed life-threatening or accidental etc, should carry a premium cost that isn't covered by medical cards etc. A type of loan to cover your treatment that you have to pay back. Obviously people suffering from alcoholism aren't the target here.

Unfortunately the foundation of a public health care system is that you dont provide less care because of a specific paramater.

I don't really drink but I do smoke
And while my only hospital trips in my life were A and E for football related incidents...you can't say tag a fee onto my healthcare because I smoke.

Private health insurance sure. Not a public system though. That leads to essentially discrimination and the state putting values on one citizens care over another.

BoatMad · 23-01-2015 01:56PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Absolutely. The amount of alcohol-related issues cluttering up the system is a real problem. Id propose that all such issues, that were not deemed life-threatening or accidental etc, should carry a premium cost that isn't covered by medical cards etc. A type of loan to cover your treatment that you have to pay back. Obviously people suffering from alcoholism aren't the target here.

A type of loan to cover your treatment that you have to pay back.

Can you see it now
"Irish Daily Star - Heartless Varadkar to charge homeless for hospital visits"

Seriously this is why we never fix things

BoatMad · 23-01-2015 01:57PM

TheDoc wrote: »

Unfortunately the foundation of a public health care system is that you dont provide less care because of a specific paramater.

I don't really drink but I do smoke
And while my only hospital trips in my life were A and E for football related incidents...you can't say tag a fee onto my healthcare because I smoke.

Private health insurance sure. Not a public system though. That leads to essentially discrimination and the state putting values on one citizens care over another.

Correct and its one argument for comphrensive universal health insurance, because you would pay that premium that way , but receive exactly the same care as the next person.

DeJa VooDoo · 23-01-2015 01:58PM

floggg wrote: »

And exactly where would they have hotten either the money or political capital needed to do any heavy lifting in 2011?

Political capital????
FG were elected on a massive reform manifesto, they proceeded to rip that up and throw it in our faces, of that there is no doubt. The proof is there to be seen.

Money?
There's plenty of money around to suit certain sections, how many billion was thrown into the banks and to the bondholders, this is after Leo Varadkar (the subject of the thread) swore blind that 'not another red cent' would be paid to certain types of bondholders.
It was though, wasn't it?

jobbridge4life · 23-01-2015 01:59PM

floggg wrote: »

And exactly where would they have hotten either the money or political capital needed to do any heavy lifting in 2011?

In fairness not all of the heavy lifting requires substantial expenditure. It also is worth noting that the government entered power in 2011 with the largest majority in the history of the state and with an overwhelming political mandate to 'revolutionize' our country. They squandered that political capital.

Leo Varadkar for Taoiseach

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