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Pats accused of under inflating game balls against the Colts (MOD WARNING #457)

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    #152
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,728 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Would Pats fans accept that, whatever about the gravity of the allegations, there has been shift in emphasis, in posts here at least.

    When the story first broke the suggestion was that it did not happen at all, and there was a debate as to why it would be done and the marginal benefit it conferred, if any. Now it seems to be that it did, but it happens all the time and it's a thing if nothing. As a matter of idle interest, did any Pats fan make the "happens all the time" point last Monday?

    Neither of which means it is a huge deal, of course.
    There has been no statemet made that they did anything wrong. We've just moved on to the 'if the balls were deflated then its nothing new'.


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    #153
    Hazys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,510 ✭✭✭Hazys


    adrian522 wrote: »
    Well if Al Davis said it...

    It wasn't just Al Davis :confused:

    The Broncos were made to forfeit a third-round draft pick and fined $1 million for the salary cap scandal.


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    #154
    Hazys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,510 ✭✭✭Hazys


    Art Rooney:
    I wouldn’t put it on the scale of serious, but if it’s in fact true, it’s a violation of league rules that I’m sure the league office will deal with in an appropriate way


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    #155
    BKWDR
    Registered Users Posts: 2,172 ✭✭✭BKWDR


    Bill giving a statement on http://cbsn.cbsnews.com/


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    #156
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,728 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    At work and can't follow that on cbs. Can somebody please post his statement please?


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    #157
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Would Pats fans accept that, whatever about the gravity of the allegations, there has been shift in emphasis, in posts here at least.

    When the story first broke the suggestion was that it did not happen at all, and there was a debate as to why it would be done and the marginal benefit it conferred, if any. Now it seems to be that it did, but it happens all the time and it's a thing if nothing. As a matter of idle interest, did any Pats fan make the "happens all the time" point last Monday?

    Neither of which means it is a huge deal, of course.

    Hazys answered it as well as could be. Like him, and I'd say like anyone in the media or fans elsewhere, no one knew the deep dark secrets of what goes on with the balls. The longer it went on, the more and more came out with their thoughts on it and how it is done elsewhere. I mean, we have people saying that Belichick should be fired, baned, suspended, that the Patriots should be excluded from the Superbowl, no draft picks, heavy fines, yet has anyone mentioned any retro sanctions or had any discussions on Brad Johnson bribing a ball boy with $7.5k to tamper with the balls usedin the Superbowl? No one seems to care that a direct tampering and bribery happened on the biggest stage, but yet allegations now is the worst thing ever. It's an amusing and entertaining saga.

    To add to that, IF the Patriots are guilty of it, others doing it is no excuse for them. In the scheme of things it is really really small, but its still against the rules and they are a team on an NFL watch list, so will be punished heavily.


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    #158
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,728 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Belichick's statement,
    “When I came in Monday morning I was shocked to learn of the news reports about the footballs. I had no knowledge whatsoever of this situation until Monday morning. I’ve learned a lot more about this process in the last three days than I knew — or had talked about — in the last 40 years that I’ve coached in this league. I had no knowledge of the various steps involved in the game balls, the process that happened between when they were prepared and went to the officials and went to the game, so I’ve learned a lot about that. Obviously, I understand that each team has the opportunity to prepare the balls the way they want, give them to the officials, and the game officials either approve or disapprove the balls, and that really was the end of it for me, until I learned a little bit more about it the last couple days.
    “Let me just say that my personal coaching philosophy, my mentality, has always been to make things as difficult as possible for players in practice, and so with regard to footballs, I’m sure that any current or past player of mine would tell you that the balls we practice with are as bad as they can be. Wet, sticky, cold, slippery, whatever. However bad we can make them, I make them. And any time that players complain about the quality of the footballs, I make them worse, and that stops the complaining. So we never use the condition of the footballs as an excuse. We play with whatever, or kick with whatever we have to use, and that’s the way it is. That has never been a priority for me, and I want the players to deal with a harder situation in practice than they’ll ever have to deal with in a game. And maybe that’s part of our whole ball security philosophy.
    “I’m trying to coach the team and that’s what I want to do. I think we all know that quarterbacks, kickers, specialists have certain preferences on the footballs. They know a lot more than I do. They’re a lot more sensitive to it than I am. I hear them comment on it from time to time, but I can tell you and they will tell you that there’s never any sympathy whatsoever from me on that subject. Zero. Tom’s personal preferences on his footballs are something that he can talk about in much better detail and information than I could possibly provide.
    “I can tell you that in my entire coaching career I have never talked to any player, staff member about football air pressure. That is not a subject that I have ever brought up. To me, the footballs are approved by the league and game officials pre-game, and we play with what’s out there. And that’s the only way that I have ever thought about that.
    “I’ve learned about the inflation range situation, obviously, with our footballs being inflated to the twelve and a half pound range, any deflation would then take us under that specification limit. Knowing that now, in the future we will certainly inflate the footballs above that low level to account for any possible change during the game. So as an example, if a ball deflated from 13.2 to 12.9, it wouldn’t matter, but if it deflated from 12.5 to 12.3, it would — as an example. So we will take steps in the future to make sure that we don’t put ourselves in that type of potential situation again.


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    #159
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,728 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    part 2,
    "The National Football League is investigating the situation. We have cooperated fully, quickly and completely with every request that they have made, continue to be cooperative in any way that we can. I have no explanation for what happened, and that’s what they’re looking into, so I can’t comment on what they’re doing. That’s something that you should talk to them about. Again, my overall knowledge of football specifications, the overall process that happens on game day with the footballs, is very limited. I would say that during the course of the game, I honestly never — it probably has happened on an incomplete pass or something, but I’ve never touched a game ball. That’s not something that I have any familiarity with on that. And again, I was completely and totally unaware of any of this that we’re talking about in the last couple days, until Monday morning. Based on what I knew Sunday night, thinking back on this, which I’ve done several times, I can’t think of anything that I would have done differently, based on what I knew then, based on what I know now. I’ve told you the one change we would make on the initial start level of the football pressure, but that’s really about it.
    "It’s unfortunate that this is a story coming off two great playoff victories by our football team and our players, but again we’ve been cooperative with the NFL investigation. We’ll continue to do so, and we’ll turn all our attention, focus on the Seattle Seahawks, a very well-coached, talented, tough football team. We’ve spent the last four days, three days, with our preparations and so forth for the trip. Those are coming to a conclusion, we’re wrapping that up, and we’re starting our preparations today for the Seahawks and practicing through the weekend so we’ll have a good, solid opportunity to get ourselves ready to go before we head down there.
    "Again, I have no further comment on the NFL investigation, and I’ve told you all I know about the subject from my perspective. So that’s where we are."


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    #160
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    I’ve told you the one change we would make on the initial start level of the football pressure, but that’s really about it.,

    thats the one thing I thought of, and still do. That this was the starting point of the pressure of the balls submitted, and that the refs didnt pick up on it when inspecting them. If BB is saying the one thing he'd do differently is change the initial level of pressure, then surely it means that they were handed in under pressure, and therefore not tampered with. Thats if people take his explanation at face value (which many wont) but we'll see what the NFL says now.


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    #161
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Hazys wrote: »
    TBH i didnt like most fans know much about the process and at the time it seemed like a ridiculous story and still with the media frenzy, it still seems like a ridiculous over blown story.

    Only difference now is I'm well versed now the ins and out of ball pressure; how it can be affected by 10 degrees of weather change, what the NFL allowed levels of pressure are, etc. I've learned more about NFL ball regulations and how players doctor the ball to their preferences, etc than I every cared to.

    Can't wait for the next NFL scandal, I've always wanted to brush up on my knowledge on the allowed length of player's cleats.

    I think the terms you initially used were "crazed hysteria" and "clickbait".

    You will agree that, again while determining the gravity is difficult, it certainly cannot be dismissed in those terms.

    And I accept that you are now well versed in it, we all are. But that's the way these things work. People may have shrugged their shoulders about spying in the past, spygate brought that to a head. People may have shrugged their shoulders about targetting opponents to take them out, bountygate set out why that is not acceptable. That is not to say tampering with the ball is in the same category, mind you.


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    #162
    Alfred Borden
    Registered Users Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭Alfred Borden


    Jason La Canfora ‏@JasonLaCanfora 2m2 minutes ago
    "@DOrlandoAJC: Jay Glazer: "Colts Were Tipped Off By Baltimore Ravens." - as I reported Tues BAL believed balls were irregular in Div game


    .


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    #163
    rockonollie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,626 ✭✭✭rockonollie


    Great comment from Richard Sherman on the NFL hypocrisy in terms of violations.

    To paraphrase he said that, even though it's not a major infraction, it is cheating and does give an advantage to the offense, but nothing will happen to the Patriots before the superbowl, on the other hand, Marshawn Lynch was going to be suspended for the NFC Championship game because he wanted to wear gold shoes.


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    #164
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,728 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    rockonollie wrote: »
    Great comment from Richard Sherman on the NFL hypocrisy in terms of violations.

    To paraphrase he said that, even though it's not a major infraction, it is cheating and does give an advantage to the offense, but nothing will happen to the Patriots before the superbowl, on the other hand, Marshawn Lynch was going to be suspended for the NFC Championship game because he wanted to wear gold shoes.
    And was Sherman asked about the illegal formation that resulted in them recovering the onside kick and winning the game.

    Should that game be replayed?


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    #165
    rockonollie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,626 ✭✭✭rockonollie


    eagle eye wrote: »
    And was Sherman asked about the illegal formation that resulted in them recovering the onside kick and winning the game.

    Should that game be replayed?

    And what was illegal about that play in your eyes?


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    #166
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,728 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    rockonollie wrote: »
    And what was illegal about that play in your eyes?
    I'm just going on what others have said here, I haven't seen it again. They are saying it was an illegal six man wedge I believe. I'm at work and don't have the opportunity to check out these things.


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    #167
    rockonollie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,626 ✭✭✭rockonollie


    eagle eye wrote: »
    I'm just going on what others have said here, I haven't seen it again. They are saying it was an illegal six man wedge I believe. I'm at work and don't have the opportunity to check out these things.

    You should know not to use what you've read on boards as the basis for an argument. Their formation was perfectly legal.


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    #168
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,728 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    rockonollie wrote: »
    You should know not to use what you've read on boards as the basis for an argument. Their formation was perfectly legal.
    Have you watched a replay?


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    #169
    rockonollie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,626 ✭✭✭rockonollie


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Have you watched a replay?

    I saw it live, 6 men lined up in a bunch formation on the side that they kicked to. The rules that are being mistakenly argued are that they can't have 6 players on one side (which is incorrect, the rule says that they must have at least 4 players on each side, so a 6/4 split is legal) and there's also the claims of them forming a wedge.....but the wedge rule applies to the receiving team, and doesn't apply when it's an obvious onside kick attempt. There is no mention in the rules about the kicking team forming a wedge.

    <b>


    FREE KICK FORMATION    Article 3


    When the ball is kicked on a free kick down:

    (a) After the ball has been made ready for play, all kicking team (Team A) players other than the kicker must be lined up no more than five yards behind their restraining line; and

    (b) All kicking team players must be inbounds and behind the
    ball when it is kicked, except:
    (1) the holder of a placekick (3-23) may be beyond the line,
    and
    (2) the kicker may be beyond the line, provided that his kicking
    foot is not beyond the line.

    (c) At least four players of the kicking team must be on each side of the kicker. At least three players must be lined up outside each inbounds line, one of whom must be outside the
    yard-line number.
    Note: A holder for a free kick counts as one of the required
    four players, regardless of where he is positioned.

    (d)
    All receiving team (Team B) players must be inbounds and behind their
    restraining line until the ball is kicked.


    Penalty: For a player being beyond the restraining line when the ball is kicked (offside), a player being out of boundswhen the ball is kicked, a kicking team player other than the
    kicker being more than five yards behind his restraining line,    or the kicking
    team being in an illegal formation when the ball is
    kicked    :
    Loss of five yards.


    (e) After the ball is kicked, no more than two receiving team players may intentionally form a wedge in an attempt to block for the runner. An illegal wedge is defined as three or more players lined up shoulder-to-shoulder within two yards of each other.
    Note: This does not apply when the kicking team
    lines up in an obvious onside kick
    formation.
    </b>


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    #170
    SameOleJay
    Registered Users Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SameOleJay


    eagle eye wrote: »
    And was Sherman asked about the illegal formation that resulted in them recovering the onside kick and winning the game.

    Should that game be replayed?

    It wasn't illegal.


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    #171
    Hazys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,510 ✭✭✭Hazys


    rockonollie wrote: »
    Great comment from Richard Sherman on the NFL hypocrisy in terms of violations.

    To paraphrase he said that, even though it's not a major infraction, it is cheating and does give an advantage to the offense, but nothing will happen to the Patriots before the superbowl, on the other hand, Marshawn Lynch was going to be suspended for the NFC Championship game because he wanted to wear gold shoes.

    Hold up a second that some seriously imaginative paraphrasing.

    Sherman never said it was cheating nor did it give much of an advantage to the offense.

    This is what he said:
    "If it's against the rules, it's against the rules," Sherman said Wednesday. "But it's not going to have any effect on this game. Nobody is going to get suspended [for the Super Bowl], and nothing's going to happen. We're gonna play this game. Whatever they did, the risk/reward was greater.''

    "That really affects the game if you suspend Marshawn for gold shoes," Sherman said. "But then you've got balls being deflated and that's the issue."

    Sherman was asked whether he ever has intercepted a deflated football.

    "I'll have to go back to my collection and check 'em,'' he said. "I'll have to see if pounds are missing. Really, I've never heard of that. I'm not sure anything will come [of] it, if it's true or not true. It didn't have much effect on the [AFC Championship Game], if any."


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    #172
    rockonollie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,626 ✭✭✭rockonollie


    Not all that imaginative, when he stated that it won't affect the Superbowl, he wasn't saying that deflated balls doesn't affect anything, he was saying that the NFL won't do anything about it.

    As for his exact quote on the NFL hypocrisy......
    “They were trying to suspend Marshawn for gold shoes and that [deflating the ball] really affects the game,”

    “You suspend Marshawn for gold shoes, then you’ve got balls being deflated and that’s the issue.”


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    #173
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,677 ✭✭✭nerd69


    eagle eye wrote: »
    And was Sherman asked about the illegal formation that resulted in them recovering the onside kick and winning the game.

    Should that game be replayed?

    you shouldn't be throwing stones when you live in a glass house pats got away with at least 1 illegal play in the ravens game


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    #174
    frostie500
    Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭frostie500


    nerd69 wrote: »
    you shouldn't be throwing stones when you live in a glass house pats got away with at least 1 illegal play in the ravens game

    Those plays in the Ravens games were legal, as has been stated many times by the NFL and officials. It's also been said that the Pats may have snapped the ball too quickly and thus not allowed the defence to properly lineup and understand what is coming from the offence but if that's the case it's up to the officals to stop the play. If the ref doesn't whistle you can't blame an offence for running a play that would give them a big gain.


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    #175
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,677 ✭✭✭nerd69


    frostie500 wrote: »
    Those plays in the Ravens games were legal, as has been stated many times by the NFL and officials. It's also been said that the Pats may have snapped the ball too quickly and thus not allowed the defence to properly lineup and understand what is coming from the offence but if that's the case it's up to the officals to stop the play. If the ref doesn't whistle you can't blame an offence for running a play that would give them a big gain.

    makes no difference if the d is not lined up the ball was snapped before the o-line was set they have to be set a few seconds before you can snap it


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    #176
    frostie500
    Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭frostie500


    nerd69 wrote: »
    makes no difference if the d is not lined up the ball was snapped before the o-line was set they have to be set a few seconds before you can snap it

    It's up to the umpire to give the correct amount of time before allowing the play to take place. I definitely wouldn't be saying that the Pats did anything wrong in that. it was a clever case of exploiting the regulations to their limit...in order words doing what everyone should do in all cases


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    #177
    DecStone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭DecStone


    The biggest surprise for those of us who have followed this game for over 40 years is the report that the Ravens alerted the Colts before the game that the balls might be an issue [they had suspicions during their own game with the Pats].

    The Baltimore Colts left town in the dark of night and Baltimore still holds a grudge against the Irsays.


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    #178
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    nerd69 wrote: »
    you shouldn't be throwing stones when you live in a glass house pats got away with at least 1 illegal play in the ravens game
    And maybe Sherman shouldn't be throwing stones from the Hawks PED built glass house?

    Ravens got away with an illegal hold on Gronk, and a finger in Tom's eye.


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    #179
    Hazys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,510 ✭✭✭Hazys


    rockonollie wrote: »
    Not all that imaginative, when he stated that it won't affect the Superbowl, he wasn't saying that deflated balls doesn't affect anything, he was saying that the NFL won't do anything about it.

    As for his exact quote on the NFL hypocrisy......

    “They were trying to suspend Marshawn for gold shoes and that [deflating the ball] really affects the game,”

    “You suspend Marshawn for gold shoes, then you’ve got balls being deflated and that’s the issue.”

    What you are quoting is different to the quotes here: http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2014/story/_/id/12207778/seattle-seahawks-scoff-new-england-patriots-deflategate-no-effect
    Sherman made a comparison to the fact that Seattle running back Marshawn Lynch was told he would not be allowed to play in the NFC Championship Game if he wore shoes with gold cleats because it violated the NFL's uniform code.

    "That really affects the game if you suspend Marshawn for gold shoes," Sherman said. "But then you've got balls being deflated and that's the issue."

    Where did you get that quote from? Another news source doesn't have it: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/22/richard-sherman-says-tom-brady-isnt-who-he-seems-to-be/


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    #180
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    Is his arse an option? :)


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    #181
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,677 ✭✭✭nerd69


    frostie500 wrote: »
    It's up to the umpire to give the correct amount of time before allowing the play to take place. I definitely wouldn't be saying that the Pats did anything wrong in that. it was a clever case of exploiting the regulations to their limit...in order words doing what everyone should do in all cases

    hmm if we dont get caught its not cheating is it? this is the issue i dont have an issue with the ball thing at all its been blown out of proportion (and people who want a replay of the colts games have no idea what they are talking about) but iv herd a number of nfl insiders (for all thats worth) say that the patriots are very very comfortable in the grey area of legality and thats why they get caught for things like this relatively often.

    there was no exploiting the rules to there limit there was breaking rules and it was not caught
    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    And maybe Sherman shouldn't be throwing stones from the Hawks PED built glass house?

    Ravens got away with an illegal hold on Gronk, and a finger in Tom's eye.

    i dislike the hawks a lot for multiple reasons among them the ped issues and the fact that they hold every play because the refs are unlikely to call it every play (****ing drives me mad grow a pair refs), there blatant **** the wordless (new phrase yay) and the whole "everyone counted us out"(nobody ****ing counted them out)

    the hawks are idiots no ifs or buts about it. personally i hope the pats spank them


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