Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1

evolving_doors · 21-01-2015 06:50PM

clunked wrote: »

Propaganda in full flow from Jan on the News at 1. Its obvious that she is the puppet and the strings are being controlled elsewhere.

Today FM newsheadlines this morning 8:30 am started off with "teachers will be urged to reach a consensus with the minister as they are set to strike tomorrow..."

No mention of Who has urged them to reach a consensus! INM maybe!

Of course parents council are coming out predicting the ruination of students education because of the strike day. Maybe if they considered that its about decades of childrens education to come that we're protesting for.

After this strike, the 'assessment initiative' will be let die like the short-courses idea has. Minister exit stage left after the election, incoming minister will scrap the idea (like Leo did to O' Reilly).

katydid · 21-01-2015 07:51PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

An extremely naive way of looking at how politics works. Senior civil servants are in place for years and years. Ministers come and go, they are often appointed to a department in which they have no experience. Of course they are going to take their lead from senior civil servants.

They can follow the lead from civil servants in matters of procedure, where the civil servants are more experiences in that department, but they are coming to the job with policies to implement, and they would be pretty weak if they allowed policy to be dictated by civil servants.

katydid · 21-01-2015 07:55PM

Armelodie wrote: »

Today FM newsheadlines this morning 8:30 am started off with "teachers will be urged to reach a consensus with the minister as they are set to strike tomorrow..."

No mention of Who has urged them to reach a consensus! INM maybe!

Of course parents council are coming out predicting the ruination of students education because of the strike day. Maybe if they considered that its about decades of childrens education to come that we're protesting for.

After this strike, the 'assessment initiative' will be let die like the short-courses idea has. Minister exit stage left after the election, incoming minister will scrap the idea (like Leo did to O' Reilly).

I hope they don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. As I've said before, I don't agree with my colleagues on this issue, and I think they are wrong to worry about the independence of properly devised and moderated assessment, but if that is the sticking point, I hope that the issue of continuous assessment per se is not abandoned, even if it would have to be marked externally. It is already practiced in some areas, to great success.

It can't be as good (in my view) as being corrected by the teacher themselves, but to have a large element of CA, at least 50%, would be highly desirable for so many students, who need the chance to thrive under a different assessment style.

clunked · 21-01-2015 08:07PM

You don't mind a grossly increased workload so or less holidays so. nice one:(. I don't see much of a baby in the bath water tbh.

acequion · 21-01-2015 08:36PM

Totally agree with clunked. The whole issue is being fudged by ideologies which would necessitate a much healthier structure than our thread bare one. The real issues should be huge class sizes,escalating discipline problems,low teacher morale,the casualisation of the profession,unsustainable workload etc etc. Forcing teachers to start marking their own students at this point, after years of austerity, would serve no purpose for anyone.

And as for whether CA is better than terminal exams and general reform of the JC,let's start with what I've listed above first.

evolving_doors · 21-01-2015 09:16PM

katydid wrote: »

They can follow the lead from civil servants in matters of procedure, where the civil servants are more experiences in that department, but they are coming to the job with policies to implement, and they would be pretty weak if they allowed policy to be dictated by civil servants.

So what policies did Jan come with under her arm? Make no mistake, its a retirement post till the next election. She's quite happy to do the merry dance with the unions as it shows her throwing a few shapes.

katydid · 21-01-2015 09:21PM

Armelodie wrote: »

So what policies did Jan come with under her arm? Make no mistake, its a retirement post till the next election. She's quite happy to do the merry dance with the unions as it shows her throwing a few shapes.

Government policies....LABOUR policies for "reform" of education. Well flagged

katydid · 21-01-2015 09:22PM

clunked wrote: »

You don't mind a grossly increased workload so or less holidays so. nice one:(. I don't see much of a baby in the bath water tbh.

I already correct my own students' work. It does mean a lot of paperwork, but I'd be assessing them anyway. And it doesn't mean less holidays.

katydid · 21-01-2015 09:25PM

acequion wrote: »

Totally agree with clunked. The whole issue is being fudged by ideologies which would necessitate a much healthier structure than our thread bare one. The real issues should be huge class sizes,escalating discipline problems,low teacher morale,the casualisation of the profession,unsustainable workload etc etc. Forcing teachers to start marking their own students at this point, after years of austerity, would serve no purpose for anyone.

And as for whether CA is better than terminal exams and general reform of the JC,let's start with what I've listed above first.

It would serve the purpose of students being marked by those who know them and see how they work, and would would be able to match their teaching techniques to their assessment techniques.

Giving students more options to reflect different learning and assessment styles doesn't mean NOT tackling the other aspects.

gaiscioch · 21-01-2015 10:02PM

"we have sustained a total and unmitigated defeat … instead of snatching [their] victuals from the table, [they have] been content to have them served to [them] course by course"

It's frightening how changing the third person pronoun from that famous speech can accurately describe the step-by-step determination of the Department of Education to bring the conditions of Irish teachers down to the yellow pack level of teachers in England. Demanding that we correct our students' exams (and for free) is the latest in this campaign to reduce these conditions of employment. Bit by bit, demand by demand, they are trying to break us. One demand after another. All in the name of their "efficiency" and their "money saving", while they crowd their rooms with friends to whom they give the title "advisors" and obscene salaries, salaries which the same government ministers are on record as having attempted to get a special exemption from the salary cap of €92,000. Only the little people like teachers should take cuts, as the following act by the smoked salmon socialist bootboy of the erstwhile wannabe fascists makes very, very clear:

Brendan Howlin wanted to pay his own special adviser a salary of more than €133,600

And more of the same "Do as we say, not as we do" from the Irish Department of Education:

"Last week, it emerged that the secretary general of the Department of Education Brigid McManus would be receiving an annual pension of €114,000 when she retires shortly at the age of 53 [53!!]. Ms McManus will also receive an after-tax lump sum of €204,000" (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/secretary-general-retires-with-package-worth-634-087-1.15198)

gaiscioch · 21-01-2015 10:05PM

Only an utterly naive teacher at this stage can think this latest demand for us to correct our own students is a minor, once-off issue. It is the latest in a rapidly expanding accumulation of demands from this government which have the incontrovertible consequence of fundamentally lowering the conditions of this profession. These impositions are singularly, and incrementally, undermining our contracts of employment. There is a clear, unmistakable pattern in Irish government policy to bring our conditions down to that of teachers in England. Oh, the money they'd save! For anybody in teaching who thinks this latest demand is an isolated "minor" demand, I would ask you to look at the entirety of that pattern of state demands and impositions on Irish teachers since 2009.

As long ago as March 2012, ASTIR had the following list under the heading "What Teachers have given" (p. 24)

2009:
*an average 7.5% pay cut in the form of the public service pension levy;
* non-payment of a 3.5% pay increase due under Towards 2016; and,
* curtailment of the supervision and substitution scheme, meaning
* significant losses to part-time and temporary teachers.

2010:
* a pay cut averaging 6.5% for all teachers; and,
* non-payment of 2.5% due under Towards 2016.
2011:
* a 15% pay cut for new entrants to teaching;
* a 4% cut in pensions for retired teachers;
* hundreds of teachers redeployed;
* an additional 33 hours of non-teaching work per year; and,
* an extra rota period for teachers doing supervision and substitution.

2012
* a cut in qualification allowances for new entrants.

Since March 2012, we have had many more demands - the current increment delay of 3 months resulted in a 25% decrease in all our increments, which in my case was a loss of slightly over €700 and this 25% loss will be repeated next year and thereafter, for starters. And all the while these cuts to our conditions continue, the well-paid knaves and flunkeys of this government tell us how great the economy is doing. The above list also excludes the substantial decline in conditions in classrooms because of cuts to school resources. Many teachers who took this job precisely because they were willing to accept a lower salary for a better quality of life than their rat race friends from college now find themselves on a lower salary and in receipt of inferior conditions.

The question is: will it be too late before Irish teachers realise the bigger picture? Or will the gradual decline in conditions continue to beguile them into not seeing the bigger picture? In the short-medium term, is the Irish teaching profession going to in effect have its own Irish Ferries solution, where yellow pack workers come to Ireland from the English system and accept far inferior working conditions than Irish teachers were willing to accept? I'd be very interested in seeing statistics on the number of teachers who are taking early retirement/resigning due to these changes.

It is much easier for Irish teachers to keep rights and conditions, than it will be for them to recover rights and conditions which they have lost. Allow them to bully us out of our conditions now, and the last member of the teaching profession as we've known it might as well turn off the lights on the way out.

clunked · 21-01-2015 10:06PM

katydid wrote: »

It would serve the purpose of students being marked by those who know them and see how they work, and would would be able to match their teaching techniques to their assessment techniques.

Giving students more options to reflect different learning and assessment styles doesn't mean NOT tackling the other aspects.

Don't take this personally because at a time of industrial dispute, tempers can fray but I sense a touch of the Stockholm syndrome there Katydid in your posts.
There is as much evidence of the proposed ideas not working in other countries and I fear being drowned in a sea of 'educational gobbledgook' from pie in the sky educationalists. Our childrens educational results will not improve, Jan and Ruari will have retired with huge pay-offs along with their spinmeisters. I still will have a hole in the window of the prefab I work in though!

acequion · 21-01-2015 10:08PM

katydid wrote: »

It would serve the purpose of students being marked by those who know them and see how they work, and would would be able to match their teaching techniques to their assessment techniques.

Giving students more options to reflect different learning and assessment styles doesn't mean NOT tackling the other aspects.

Sorry but you're merely "talking the talk" Every teacher already assesses his /her own students and in a variety of ways and all good teachers align technique with assessment. That is basically what teaching has been about since the year dot.You teach,you assess,you assess and based on that you tailor your teaching.The pupil is assessed,he /she learns from it. You would think from all the talk lately that some revolutionary principle has just been discovered!

Forgive me and many others for not going "wow" when we are already overworked and overloaded and when what we're already doing has stood the test of time.Look at our recent PISA ratings!

This has precious little to do with improving the quality of education and a lot to do with saving money.All the fancy speak and buzz words in the world shouldn't obscure that basic reality.

rainbowtrout · 21-01-2015 10:26PM

katydid wrote: »

I already correct my own students' work. It does mean a lot of paperwork, but I'd be assessing them anyway. And it doesn't mean less holidays.

In the long run the DES want us to correct the exams as well as the continuous assessment component, even if they do continue to set the exams. To make that workable students will still have to do the exams to a national timetable. When do you think this will happen? We are contracted to give 167 days of teaching time over the school year, exams will happen in June. Do you want to be supervising your third years in June and correcting exams at the end of June and then meeting with the other teachers of your subject area at the end of June/ early July to ensure that the grades fit the curve etc? I don't.

man_no_plan · 22-01-2015 12:59AM

Definition of Continuous Assessment.

Keep doing the same piece of work until it gets the grade we want it to get.

Of course some kids still wont make the same effort, just like now. So we will still get a nice curve. The prevalence of not giving a **** is along a normal distribution I assume.

If that is not the definition then it must be:

Produce work get a mark.

Later....

Produce work get a mark.

Difference between this and current JC? Time between assessment components. Only that.

Feedback on why you got the D Mary? Haven't got time dear, I'm just finished marking all that pile there, now I have to prepare you for your next assessment.

At that rate we could just fire second years into the exam hall a year early for an hour long test along with third years doing an hour long exam.

Where is the EDUCATIONAL VALUE?

Show me that and I'm sold. I cannot see it, all this nonsense about the value of group work, collaboration etc, bull****, happens everyday in schools at the minute. My first years all did an oral presentation last week with group feedback, no marking scheme no grid or rubric, two good points and one area for improvement.

Maybe they learned nothing or gained nothing because its not in a scheme of work handed out by the NCCA? Oh no! If only it was part of a framework of some kind!

evolving_doors · 22-01-2015 10:57AM

katydid wrote: »

I hope they don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. As I've said before, I don't agree with my colleagues on this issue, and I think they are wrong to worry about the independence of properly devised and moderated assessment, but if that is the sticking point, I hope that the issue of continuous assessment per se is not abandoned, even if it would have to be marked externally. It is already practiced in some areas, to great success.

It can't be as good (in my view) as being corrected by the teacher themselves, but to have a large element of CA, at least 50%, would be highly desirable for so many students, who need the chance to thrive under a different assessment style.

You can continuously assess your own students regardless of govt. initiative... and thats our own professional perogative to do so thank god.. well it used to be until this nonsense.

Katydid.. we know well this is aping the failed UK system, (nevermind Finland and their small class sizes).the Irish inspectorate have explicitly stated that that is their wish. Furthermore, they have explicitly stated that they wish the results to be tied to ' performance ' related pay , And furthermore they want every schools results to be published.

Do what you wish and teach to the style that you prefer. But foisting wishy washy 'best practice' on every single teacher in the country will sound the death knell of the autonomy that our profession and students deserve.

Benicetomonty · 22-01-2015 11:25AM

Don Myers really struggling on Pat Kenny show, Gerry Quinn v articulate

Chancer3001 · 22-01-2015 11:59AM

Don myers quote on rte.ie is wrong.

He said 40% correcting by teachers is already done in practical subjects.

It's not.

Parents reading that will be misinformed.

evolving_doors · 22-01-2015 12:04PM

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Don Myers really struggling on Pat Kenny show, Gerry Quinn v articulate

Yup tide is turning, even Shane Coleman's attempts at shouting him down sounded desperate.

86% of public supported teachers position this morning on tv3 poll. Gerry Quinn invited Don Myers to put a poll to the parents he represents!!

katydid · 22-01-2015 12:05PM

Armelodie wrote: »

You can continuously assess your own students regardless of govt. initiative... and thats our own professional perogative to do so thank god.. well it used to be until this nonsense.

Katydid.. we know well this is aping the failed UK system, (nevermind Finland and their small class sizes).the Irish inspectorate have explicitly stated that that is their wish. Furthermore, they have explicitly stated that they wish the results to be tied to ' performance ' related pay , And furthermore they want every schools results to be published.

Do what you wish and teach to the style that you prefer. But foisting wishy washy 'best practice' on every single teacher in the country will sound the death knell of the autonomy that our profession and students deserve.

It doesn't have to ape the failed UK system. I've seen at first hand how CA can work properly in this country - and I've worked and used it in the UK, so I know what I'm comparing it with. In the UK, it's a box ticking exercise, and far too much leeway is given to the students. When it's used here, in FETAC, for example, it is properly devised and properly moderated and it is a totally different kettle of fish.

It is certainly not wishy washy to devise, administer and moderate a well structured and transparent assessment system.

katydid · 22-01-2015 12:07PM

man_no_plan wrote: »

Definition of Continuous Assessment.

Keep doing the same piece of work until it gets the grade we want it to get.

Rubbish. You set a date, they submit the work or carry it out in your presence, it gets marked, they get feedback. End of story. You can, and should, build in interim reviews where they can pre-submit their work for you to advise them (and to make sure it is their own work), but once it is handed up it is marked and that is final. The moderator can change it, or the student can make an official query at the end of the process, but there is no re-marking.

macyard · 22-01-2015 12:10PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

In the long run the DES want us to correct the exams as well as the continuous assessment component, even if they do continue to set the exams. To make that workable students will still have to do the exams to a national timetable. When do you think this will happen? We are contracted to give 167 days of teaching time over the school year, exams will happen in June. Do you want to be supervising your third years in June and correcting exams at the end of June and then meeting with the other teachers of your subject area at the end of June/ early July to ensure that the grades fit the curve etc? I don't.

Do you get paid to work in june/july?

evolving_doors · 22-01-2015 12:14PM

katydid wrote: »

It doesn't have to ape the failed UK system. I've seen at first hand how CA can work properly in this country - and I've worked and used it in the UK, so I know what I'm comparing it with. In the UK, it's a box ticking exercise, and far too much leeway is given to the students. When it's used here, in FETAC, for example, it is properly devised and properly moderated and it is a totally different kettle of fish.

It is certainly not wishy washy to devise, administer and moderate a well structured and transparent assessment system.

Comparing FETAC and junior cert students is ludicrous. You might as well make the analogy that because the private sector uses continuous performance reviews then it should work for 14 year olds.

All this money being spent devising, administering,moderating,reviewing,appealing,measuring etc.. Why not just reduce the class sizes instead of trying to force one particular teaching method ( and all the 'measurement' that comes with it) onto teachers.

If it is so great why didn't they start with the Leaving Cert?

r93kaey5p2izun · 22-01-2015 12:15PM

katydid wrote: »

It doesn't have to ape the failed UK system. I've seen at first hand how CA can work properly in this country - and I've worked and used it in the UK, so I know what I'm comparing it with. In the UK, it's a box ticking exercise, and far too much leeway is given to the students. When it's used here, in FETAC, for example, it is properly devised and properly moderated and it is a totally different kettle of fish.

It is certainly not wishy washy to devise, administer and moderate a well structured and transparent assessment system.

Teaching FETAC is exactly what has shown me that teacher devised assessment and correction with token moderation is a recipe for wildly varying standards. I have little confidence in FETAC standards. It can be great but I have seen so much evidence of it being a sham. Imo much of the FETAC process is box-ticking smoke and mirrors that can cover a multitude.

I also don't feel I or my students gain anything from my correction of student work for certification that isn't gained from correction and feedback given anyway as part of normal teaching and learning.

acequion · 22-01-2015 12:21PM

katydid wrote: »

It doesn't have to ape the failed UK system. I've seen at first hand how CA can work properly in this country - and I've worked and used it in the UK, so I know what I'm comparing it with. In the UK, it's a box ticking exercise, and far too much leeway is given to the students. When it's used here, in FETAC, for example, it is properly devised and properly moderated and it is a totally different kettle of fish.

It is certainly not wishy washy to devise, administer and moderate a well structured and transparent assessment system.

katydid nothing has to be bad and many ideas are great in theory. But practise is an entirely different ballgame. Remember that the second union objection is the capacity of schools [and by implication,teachers] to cope with the reform.In practise, foisting this upon weary,demoralised,overworked and underpaid teachers at this point in time and upon a system which is barely coping after years of savage cutbacks,is a non runner. Anyone who cannot see that is living in cloud cuckoo land. The only sensible solution is to scrap the whole idea and go back to the drawing board, this time with everyone on board for the good of all.

katydid · 22-01-2015 12:21PM

Marshall Some Second wrote: »

Teaching FETAC is exactly what has shown me that teacher devised assessment and correction with token moderation is a recipe for wildly varying standards. I have little confidence in FETAC standards. It can be great but I have seen so much evidence of it being a sham. Imo much of the FETAC process is box-ticking smoke and mirrors that can cover a multitude.

I also don't feel I or my students gain anything from my correction of student work for certification process that isn't gained from correction and feedback given anyway as part of normal teaching and learning.

The FETAC work carried out in PLC's and properly run Dept. of Ed centres is and should be properly devised and monitored. It is indeed a disgrace that private suppliers can tick boxes and provide the same certification as these centres, and that is something that should be addressed with stringent inspection and moderation. There is no reason why second level schools, whose business is education, not profit, should not be able to devise a proper, watertight and fair system.

But moderation and inspection of these systems is essential and, having seen how FETAC have pulled back from this and put more on the individual schools, that part would worry me slightly. However, the standards in Dept. of Ed. centres are light years away from the private sector, and in the case of the JC, there is no private sector to offer shoddy service.

Surely feedback and correction of assignments enable the student to know what they need to focus on for future assignments, in order to aim for certain grades?

katydid · 22-01-2015 12:25PM

acequion wrote: »

katydid nothing has to be bad and many ideas are great in theory. But practise is an entirely different ballgame. Remember that the second union objection is the capacity of schools [and by implication,teachers] to cope with the reform.In practise, foisting this upon weary,demoralised,overworked and underpaid teachers at this point in time and upon a system which is barely coping after years of savage cutbacks,is a non runner. Anyone who cannot see that is living in cloud cuckoo land. The only sensible solution is to scrap the whole idea and go back to the drawing board, this time with everyone on board for the good of all.

That is why my first point was not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. CA in itself is not bad, but it has to be done in the right circumstances. Even though it would limit the kind of CA that can be done, a start could be made by having external teachers marking a student's work - it's still extra work for teachers, and if fairness to them they aren't complaining about that - but it would take away the fear of lack of objectivity.

I just see how some students thrive on CA. They learn as they go along and improve after getting feedback, and even unpromising ones come out with good results at the end of the year because they can focus on one thing at a time instead of cramming everything into one week. It would be a shame if the whole notion was dismissed.

katydid · 22-01-2015 12:28PM

Armelodie wrote: »

Comparing FETAC and junior cert students is ludicrous. You might as well make the analogy that because the private sector uses continuous performance reviews then it should work for 14 year olds.

All this money being spent devising, administering,moderating,reviewing,appealing,measuring etc.. Why not just reduce the class sizes instead of trying to force one particular teaching method ( and all the 'measurement' that comes with it) onto teachers.

If it is so great why didn't they start with the Leaving Cert?

Why is it ludicrous? Learners are learners, whether they are fourteen or eighteen. Some learn by rote, some by doing, some crack under exam stress, some thrive on it. It's FAIR to give learners of different styles an equal crack of the whip, instead of favouring those who prefer the old style exams.

Reducing class sizes isn't going to change learning styles...

r93kaey5p2izun · 22-01-2015 12:30PM

katydid wrote: »

The FETAC work carried out in PLC's and properly run Dept. of Ed centres is and should be properly devised and monitored. It is indeed a disgrace that private suppliers can tick boxes and provide the same certification as these centres, and that is something that should be addressed with stringent inspection and moderation. There is no reason why second level schools, whose business is education, not profit, should not be able to devise a proper, watertight and fair system.

But moderation and inspection of these systems is essential and, having seen how FETAC have pulled back from this and put more on the individual schools, that part would worry me slightly. However, the standards in Dept. of Ed. centres are light years away from the private sector, and in the case of the JC, there is no private sector to offer shoddy service.

Surely feedback and correction of assignments enable the student to know what they need to focus on for future assignments, in order to aim for certain grades?

My experience is in DES and PLC centres, not the private sector. And from what I see FETAC moderation and inspection has always been inadequate to ensure proper standards are upheld. Of course many centres are excellent and provide quality education, but from what I have seen it's certainly not down to FETAC monitoring. I just don't think it's good enough.

katydid · 22-01-2015 12:35PM

Marshall Some Second wrote: »

My experience is in DES and PLC centres, not the private sector. And from what I see FETAC moderation and inspection has always been inadequate to ensure proper standards are upheld. Of course many centres are excellent and provide quality education, but from what I have seen it's certainly not down to FETAC monitoring. I just don't think it's good enough.

You're right, it's not down to FETAC monitoring. FETAC have more or less abdicated responsibility for it; they don't care, they just award the cert. In my college, we have extremely tight internal procedures within departments and across the college for cross moderation and internal verification. External verification leaves a bit to be desired. I have total confidence in my colleagues.

The system CAN work if properly run. That the Dept. can't do on a shoestring, and it can't be done quickly. The compromise should be a properly thought out strategy, with several years given to planning it.

Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert **See Mod Warning Post #1**

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Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1