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Papa Francis - Same Sex Marriage

1246

Comments

  • #92
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    K4t wrote: »
    People are free to vote whichever way they like, for whatever ridiculously idiotic reasons they want, and we are free to label them homophobes and ****stains of society.

    Why would you do that?

    And whom are "we"?


  • #93
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Valetta wrote: »
    Why would you do that?

    And whom are "we"?
    Because I believe it to be true. I'll add in ignorant for good measure.


  • #94
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    K4t wrote: »
    Because I believe it to be true. I'll add in ignorant for good measure.

    Ah... You've dropped the "we", I see.


  • #95
    padd b1975
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,852 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    being told to vote a certain way or you will go to hell is emotional/religious blackmail.

    The Pope actually said that??


  • #96
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Daith wrote: »
    Did gay people get to vote for straight marriage ?

    There's a reason minority rights shouldn't be voted on by a majority. Alas that's where we stand now.

    What I'd your alternative to a referendum then Daith? In this case you don't think the people should get to vote.. Can you tell us any other scenarios where the people shouldn't be allowed the final say?


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  • #97
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    The thing with same sex marriage though is that it's one of those issues where it's very, very difficult for someone to argue against without being homophobic.

    First of all its accepted at this stage that gay people exist, that it absolutely isn't a lifestyle choice anymore than your eye colour, height or skin colour.

    So, if you're making an argument that gay people shouldn't be extended the exact same rights as straight people, how exactly do you justify that other than because you 'just don't like homosexuality' or you think it's 'immoral' or you find the idea of two bloke or two women in bed 'offensive/disturbing etc'

    Unfortunately, that is a fear or dislike of gay people or homosexuality in general and it's the dictionary definition of homophobia.

    Every single argument I've heard against it seems to fundamentally come down to a "it's just not right... Two lads... doing ... ya know.." base argument. That is homophobia.

    I don't see it as any different to those "I'm not a racist but black people shouldn't be in the same schools as white people" arguments they had in the United States in the 1950s.

    I think there's an attempt (by homophobes) here to redefine "homophobia" as something more akin to violent crime so that they can say "I'm not a homophobe, I just think the gays should remain in the shadows'


  • #98
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭Daith


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    What I'd your alternative to a referendum then Daith? In this case you don't think the people should get to vote.. Can you tell us any other scenarios where the people shouldn't be allowed the final say?

    When did you vote on the bank bailout? Or the right of a heterosexual couple to marry? Or if gay people can adopt?


  • #99
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    The Pope actually said that??

    Bendict possibly but not Francis


  • #100
    padd b1975
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,852 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    What I'd your alternative to a referendum then Daith? In this case you don't think the people should get to vote.. Can you tell us any other scenarios where the people shouldn't be allowed the final say?

    Most likely anything He/she doesn't agree with.

    Classic Irish liberalism right there.


  • #101
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    K4t wrote: »
    People are free to vote whichever way they like, for whatever ridiculously idiotic reasons they want, and we are free to label them homophobes and ****stains of society.

    You might find plenty of people don't care at all about what "we" (who is we) think of them.


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  • #102
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭Daith


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    Most likely anything He/she doesn't agree with.

    Classic Irish liberalism right there.

    Debate my points. Don't put words in my mouth.


  • #103
    seenitall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭seenitall


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    What I'd your alternative to a referendum then Daith? In this case you don't think the people should get to vote.. Can you tell us any other scenarios where the people shouldn't be allowed the final say?

    There is no alternative at this stage, the referendum will go ahead. But an alternative to being a dcik by denying your fellow citizens a right which you as a member of proud majority enjoy as a matter of course, is very much open and it is to vote "yes" to SSM.


  • #104
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Valetta wrote: »
    Ah... You've dropped the "we", I see.
    Rational, reasonable thinking people who have a sense of morality untainted by religion or fear of gays.


  • #105
    kneemos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,908 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    What I'd your alternative to a referendum then Daith? In this case you don't think the people should get to vote.. Can you tell us any other scenarios where the people shouldn't be allowed the final say?

    It needs a constitutional change,otherwise they would probably just allow it presumably.


  • #106
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    kneemos wrote: »
    It needs a constitutional change,otherwise they would probably just allow it presumably.

    Its debatable if it does or not. Theres different legal viewpoibts on it.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #107
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭Daith


    kneemos wrote: »
    It needs a constitutional change,otherwise they would probably just allow it presumably.

    No it doesn't. This is the government playing it safe.

    All this talk of democracy. This will be the first time ever that the people of Ireland will decide who can marry.


  • #108
    Dog of Tears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Dog of Tears


    Anyone who votes against extending the same rights to gay people as heterosexual people enjoy, is by definition, a homophobe.

    That is an unarguable fact.


  • #109
    padd b1975
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,852 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Daith wrote: »
    Debate my points. Don't put words in my mouth.

    Why do you think certain groups (coincidentally, one on the opposite side of the fence to you) should be disenfranchised from voting?


  • #110
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Daith wrote: »
    And you would respect freedom of speech of someone to offer their opinion on how someone voted?

    Well where do we draw the line then? If you accuse someone of voting no because they are a homophobic bigot then can they say that you voted yes because you are s shirt lifting bum boy?is one accusation hate speech and the other not? Who decides who can say what?


  • #111
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭Daith


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    Why do you think certain groups (coincidentally, one on the opposite side of the fence to you) should be disenfranchised from voting?

    I never said they should be stopped from voting.


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  • #112
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭Daith


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Well where do we draw the line then? If you accuse someone of voting no because they are a homophobic bigot then can they say that you voted yes because you are s shirt lifting bum boy?is one accusation hate speech and the other not? Who decides who can say what?

    Religious organisations apparently.

    If you believe in freedom of speech then there is no line.


  • #113
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Shock, Horror, Unbelievable. The Pope upholds Catholic doctrine and traditional communal values. I can seen mass dosages of smelling salts being applied to the PC brigade.


  • #114
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭Daith


    Manach wrote: »
    Shock, Horror, Unbelievable. The Pope upholds Catholic doctrine and traditional communal values. I can seen mass dosages of smelling salts being applied to the PC brigade.

    The Catholic Church is the most hypocritical organisation when it comes to upholding traditional values.


  • #115
    padd b1975
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,852 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Dog of Tears wrote: »
    Anyone who votes against extending the same rights to gay people as heterosexual people enjoy, is by definition, a homophobe.

    That is an unarguable fact.

    You do know lot's of gay people will be voting no?

    Kinda blows your theory out of the water doesn't it..


  • #116
    padd b1975
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,852 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Daith wrote: »
    I never said they should be stopped from voting.

    Do you think they should, and by extension campaigning?


  • #117
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭Daith


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    You do know lot's of gay people will be voting no?

    Kinda blows your theory out of the water doesn't it..

    You know lots of gay people? Are they single? Are they hot?


  • #118
    Dog of Tears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Dog of Tears


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    You do know lot's of gay people will be voting no?

    Kinda blows your theory out of the water doesn't it..

    I'll extend my theory to include 'idiots' so.
    We must never forget to allow for the idiots when discussing the people who make up society.


  • #119
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭Daith


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    Do you think they should, and by extension campaigning?

    Sure, everyone can and should vote and everyone is allowed to express an opinion and everyone is allowed to express opinions on other people's opinions.

    Never said otherwise


  • #120
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    Do you think they should, and by extension campaigning?
    Nobody wants them stopped from voting or campaigning.


    It will make it all the sweeter when it passes knowing the blood sweat and tears the god botherers will have put into lobbying and campaigning for a no vote in vain. Though they'll see it as having been a just and worthy cause of course.


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  • #121
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Dog of Tears wrote: »
    I'll extend my theory to include 'idiots' so.
    We must never forget to allow for the idiots when discussing the people who make up society.

    You'll get nowhere in political debate by describing your opponents as idiots, it only serves to further entrench their views and creates hostility. I've been guilty of this myself on many occasions when describing the left. I generalise and mock instead of trying to understand their position and viewpoint.

    Appreciate the fact that you live in a country where all voices can be heard.


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