GUI- Addressing the cheats

It really comes down to two things in my view;

(a) personal responsibility and,
(b) club management.

The first is something that no umbrella body, anywhere, can do anything about except encourage it. Golf is supposed to be (and in the main it is) an honest game. We are supposed to declare our penalties and take our drops and not manipulate our handicaps etc. However, as in any walk of life, there are people who bend or break the rules. Its like observing the speed limit on the road. The vast majority of us do it, but there are always a small number of those who don't. Those who live that little bit on the other side of the rules, rules which don't apply to them all of the time. Encouraging those people to stick to the rules is all we can do, unless - like the speed camera - they are caught out and are punished.

The second is probably the only place where a difference can be made. Unfortunately, unless we had semi-professional handicap secretaries following each Sunday morning four-ball around the course monitoring each stroke taken, then we can only fall back on (a). Clubs can possibly step up their monitoring of handicaps and lean on those who they suspect of massaging their scores to their advantage. They could increase the severity of sanctions against the transgressors - be the speed cameras of the sport if you like - but apart from that, there's not much that can reasonably be done.

Like you said Rikand, it will be very interesting to see what - if anything - comes out of this, because we can't afford too many speed cameras...

Anatom wrote: »

It really comes down to two things in my view;

(a) personal responsibility and,
(b) club management.

The first is something that no umbrella body, anywhere, can do anything about except encourage it. Golf is supposed to be (and in the main it is) an honest game. We are supposed to declare our penalties and take our drops and not manipulate our handicaps etc. However, as in any walk of life, there are people who bend or break the rules. Its like observing the speed limit on the road. The vast majority of us do it, but there are always a small number of those who don't. Those who live that little bit on the other side of the rules, rules which don't apply to them all of the time. Encouraging those people to stick to the rules is all we can do, unless - like the speed camera - they are caught out and are punished.

The second is probably the only place where a difference can be made. Unfortunately, unless we had semi-professional handicap secretaries following each Sunday morning four-ball around the course monitoring scores each stroke taken, then we can only fall back on (a). Clubs can possibly step up their monitoring of handicaps and lean on those who they suspect of massaging their scores to their advantage. They could increase the severity of sanctions against the transgressors - be the speed cameras of the sport if you like - but apart from that, there's not much that can reasonably be done.

Like you said Rikand, it will be very interesting to see what - if anything - comes out of this, because we can't afford too many speed cameras...

So it only comes down to one thing so !??

How can clubs and volunteer hcap secretaries 'lean' on those they suspect of massaging their handicaps ? Without going down the High court route !?

gman127 wrote: »

Make every prize be a voucher.

But the value of it will be divided by your handicap!!

100 euro voucher:

• 20 handicap wins - get a fiver!
• 10 handicapper gets a tenner
• scratch golfer takes the full hundred!

Actually I was half joking when I started typing but I quite like the idea now!

Reward good golf, not good handicap management.

A high man can still win but not as much and a low man has put the work in to get his handicap down so deserves a better reward

+1 This gets my vote.

Freemount09 wrote: »

So it only comes down to one thing so !??

How can clubs and volunteer hcap secretaries 'lean' on those they suspect of massaging their handicaps ? Without going down the High court route !?

I suppose I should have developed that point a bit further, shouldn't I??! The point I meant to make was that clubs are the other thing which can make a change. However, there's a line somewhere which needs to be drawn between policing people's honesty and pi**ing them off. Too much stick leads to anarchy. However, too little stick leads to lads thinking they can put the foot down (to continue my driving analogy).

Clubs can do more, there's no doubt about that, because individual members who see it going on may be too afraid, or don't think its their place to say anything. They could name and shame. But, would that go too far? They could keep an eye on the usual transgressors and have a quiet word with them (maybe avoiding your High Court route - although that lad seems to have been a certified nutter - the one in South Dublin last year..). They could mix up their pairings more often so the speeders are not always out with the same mates each weekend. They could do a few things like that.

The point is though, that you need commitment from the clubs to identify if there is a problem in the first place. You then need them to be resolved enough to tackle it, and then finally you need them to have the balls to see it through. That's probably asking a lot for this issue fixed across the board...

GreeBo wrote: »

36 points is 36 points, how do you define 36 points from "good golf"?

To me, 36 points is dreamland golf, not just "good golf"...

Anatom wrote: »

To me, 36 points is dreamland golf, not just "good golf"...

Irrespective of how you shoot it, 36 points is directly equal to 36 points though, that's the point!

I have to say that I have never seen someone manipulate their handicap in 25 years of golf.

Even if there were a platoon of semi professional handicap secs roaming the fairways - what good is that other than catching outright cheating such as kicking the ball, writing down the wrong score etc. ? It would do nothing for handicap monitoring. A topped 5 iron is a topped 5 iron, how can anyone but the player judge whether he meant to do it ?
Two players can hit the exact same bad shot out of bounds, one may have been trying to hit a good one and one may be "pulling" - its impossible to tell which though. As we all know only too well, the previous hole or nine holes is no indication of what the next might bring.

Truth is, the vast, vast majority of players get 0.1 most times they play, the couple of good rounds they have each season is usually balanced out by the number of 0.1s they get and is why most players stay more or less the same handicap year on year.

Anatom wrote: »

Really? If you take "manipulation" to mean avoiding 0.1s on the way up or down by not handing in a sh*t card for example, then I've seen quite a few. Not in my current club it has to be said, but quite a few elsewhere...

Nope, never seen it. We apply 0.1 for NR's so that side isn't an issue.

Have I seen people with a pretty good score have a poor finish? Sure.
Do I think that's pulling? No way of knowing and no proof possible either way.
Golf is a game of personal honour, you cant go hounding people just because you think they are doing something wrong imo.

GreeBo wrote: »

I have to say that I have never seen someone manipulate their handicap in 25 years of golf.

I think I've seen it twice. Once was when I was a kid and a guy I played with whacked his ball back and forth on the 18th green for 5 putts I think. I hadn't a clue what he was doing at the time. Funny thing is he was off 27 and you could give him 47 and he still wouldn't win.

The other time was about 2 years ago when I suspect (but only suspect) a guy intentionally bogeyed a hole by doffing a chip. He had been going fairly well, but then holed out his second shot on a par 4 which I reckoned put him in or close to ESR territory. So with my cynical head on I think he conveniently duffed the chip on the next hole. But, and this is key to any bandit debate, I can't prove anything.

GreeBo wrote: »

Nope, never seen it. We apply 0.1 for NR's so that side isn't an issue.

Have I seen people with a pretty good score have a poor finish? Sure.
Do I think that's pulling? No way of knowing and no proof possible either way.
Golf is a game of personal honour, you cant go hounding people just because you think they are doing something wrong imo.

And that was my first point earlier I suppose. Its all to do with personal responsibility. Most people have it. A small minority don't, and like the twit in the BMW 3-series speeding past us, most of us get really annoyed with them. What we really need to see is a policeman pulling him in around the next corner to put the smile back on our faces...

Getting 0.1 for a NR is a great idea btw...

Russman wrote: »

The other time was about 2 years ago when I suspect (but only suspect) a guy intentionally bogeyed a hole by doffing a chip. He had been going fairly well, but then holed out his second shot on a par 4 which I reckoned put him in or close to ESR territory. So with my cynical head on I think he conveniently duffed the chip on the next hole. But, and this is key to any bandit debate, I can't prove anything.

What handicap was/is he?

Did he duff any shots before the incident?
To me its a bit like seeing communism everywhere you looked back in the 80's.
Guys duff shots, Tiger duffed about 5 just before Christmas and he wasn't looking for 0.1 back.

GreeBo wrote: »

What handicap was/is he?

Did he duff any shots before the incident?
To me its a bit like seeing communism everywhere you looked back in the 80's.
Guys duff shots, Tiger duffed about 5 just before Christmas and he wasn't looking for 0.1 back.

Think he was around 13. Can't remember if he duffed anything earlier.
Absolutely I have no proof at all, and I would always give the benefit of the doubt, there was just a little voice in my head wondering.

I should add he won anyway, wasn't a big comp, just a regular sunday singles, and broke CSS by a few shots, so perhaps my cynical thoughts were incorrect.

Slicemeister wrote: »

Good luck trying to report or pull the second guy up!

Open draws for each individual hour on comp day to be done the night before. I sign up for 8-9, I get out between 8-9 with an unknown or acquaintance.
Too many lads playing regular golf together imo.

Oh I would never report or pull someone on the likes of that. Sure there's nothing to report and no rule broken. Its golf, people hit bad shots all the time.

Open draws for big comps alright, but I'd also bear in mind that for 99.9% of people, its their social outlet, they surely have a right to play their pastime with their friends rather than a random stranger every weekend.

Russman wrote: »

I think we've all heard or seen that. But, and its only my own take on it, I reckon an awful lot of that is just big talk tbh. The whole "I could play better if I'd wanted to" ego thing. Golfers don't usually admit to playing poorly, its always the wind, or the rain, or the hard ground, or the greens, or the slow play, or "sure I was only out to get 0.1", etc etc.
Not saying that's 100% of instances but I do think its a lot.

I think its also that people judge ability (theirs and others) based on the good shots they see. The bad shots are ignored.
This leads to too high expectations of others and ourselves.