GUI- Addressing the cheats

shabalala

http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2014/12/27/no-place-for-cheats-in-the-game-as-gui-studies-measures

I know this has been a hot topic here a few times, interesting to see the GUI comments.

What do people think of this?

Rikand

There was a couple of posts about it over in the bandit stories thread :: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057346874&page=11

At least they are recognising that it is an issue being raised which is a good thing. But it will be interesting to see what they do/can do about it all

Anatom

It really comes down to two things in my view;

(a) personal responsibility and,
(b) club management.

The first is something that no umbrella body, anywhere, can do anything about except encourage it. Golf is supposed to be (and in the main it is) an honest game. We are supposed to declare our penalties and take our drops and not manipulate our handicaps etc. However, as in any walk of life, there are people who bend or break the rules. Its like observing the speed limit on the road. The vast majority of us do it, but there are always a small number of those who don't. Those who live that little bit on the other side of the rules, rules which don't apply to them all of the time. Encouraging those people to stick to the rules is all we can do, unless - like the speed camera - they are caught out and are punished.

The second is probably the only place where a difference can be made. Unfortunately, unless we had semi-professional handicap secretaries following each Sunday morning four-ball around the course monitoring each stroke taken, then we can only fall back on (a). Clubs can possibly step up their monitoring of handicaps and lean on those who they suspect of massaging their scores to their advantage. They could increase the severity of sanctions against the transgressors - be the speed cameras of the sport if you like - but apart from that, there's not much that can reasonably be done.

Like you said Rikand, it will be very interesting to see what - if anything - comes out of this, because we can't afford too many speed cameras...

DiegoWorst

I think the GUI and golf clubs can do much more to highlight what is handicap cheating, and how unacceptable it is.
The number of people I've played with who feel its acceptable to pull for a few shots. "everyone else is doing it, why shouldn't I".
Its a culture thing - winning prizes is far more important than lowering one's handicap.

BTW, I'm heartened by the handicap goals thread on this forum - it does show there are a lot of like-minded people who strive to play their best golf everytime they tee it up.

Freemount09

Anatom wrote: »

It really comes down to two things in my view;

(a) personal responsibility and,
(b) club management.

The first is something that no umbrella body, anywhere, can do anything about except encourage it. Golf is supposed to be (and in the main it is) an honest game. We are supposed to declare our penalties and take our drops and not manipulate our handicaps etc. However, as in any walk of life, there are people who bend or break the rules. Its like observing the speed limit on the road. The vast majority of us do it, but there are always a small number of those who don't. Those who live that little bit on the other side of the rules, rules which don't apply to them all of the time. Encouraging those people to stick to the rules is all we can do, unless - like the speed camera - they are caught out and are punished.

The second is probably the only place where a difference can be made. Unfortunately, unless we had semi-professional handicap secretaries following each Sunday morning four-ball around the course monitoring scores each stroke taken, then we can only fall back on (a). Clubs can possibly step up their monitoring of handicaps and lean on those who they suspect of massaging their scores to their advantage. They could increase the severity of sanctions against the transgressors - be the speed cameras of the sport if you like - but apart from that, there's not much that can reasonably be done.

Like you said Rikand, it will be very interesting to see what - if anything - comes out of this, because we can't afford too many speed cameras...

So it only comes down to one thing so !??

How can clubs and volunteer hcap secretaries 'lean' on those they suspect of massaging their handicaps ? Without going down the High court route !?

gman127

Make every prize be a voucher.

But the value of it will be divided by your handicap!!

100 euro voucher:

• 20 handicap wins - get a fiver!
• 10 handicapper gets a tenner
• scratch golfer takes the full hundred!

Actually I was half joking when I started typing but I quite like the idea now!

Reward good golf, not good handicap management.

A high man can still win but not as much and a low man has put the work in to get his handicap down so deserves a better reward

DiegoWorst

gman127 wrote: »

Make every prize be a voucher.

But the value of it will be divided by your handicap!!

100 euro voucher:

• 20 handicap wins - get a fiver!
• 10 handicapper gets a tenner
• scratch golfer takes the full hundred!

Actually I was half joking when I started typing but I quite like the idea now!

Reward good golf, not good handicap management.

A high man can still win but not as much and a low man has put the work in to get his handicap down so deserves a better reward

+1 This gets my vote.

GreeBo

gman127 wrote: »

Make every prize be a voucher.

But the value of it will be divided by your handicap!!

100 euro voucher:

• 20 handicap wins - get a fiver!
• 10 handicapper gets a tenner
• scratch golfer takes the full hundred!

Actually I was half joking when I started typing but I quite like the idea now!

Reward good golf, not good handicap management.

A high man can still win but not as much and a low man has put the work in to get his handicap down so deserves a better reward

36 points is 36 points, how do you define 36 points from "good golf"?

Anatom

Freemount09 wrote: »

So it only comes down to one thing so !??

How can clubs and volunteer hcap secretaries 'lean' on those they suspect of massaging their handicaps ? Without going down the High court route !?

I suppose I should have developed that point a bit further, shouldn't I??! The point I meant to make was that clubs are the other thing which can make a change. However, there's a line somewhere which needs to be drawn between policing people's honesty and pi**ing them off. Too much stick leads to anarchy. However, too little stick leads to lads thinking they can put the foot down (to continue my driving analogy).

Clubs can do more, there's no doubt about that, because individual members who see it going on may be too afraid, or don't think its their place to say anything. They could name and shame. But, would that go too far? They could keep an eye on the usual transgressors and have a quiet word with them (maybe avoiding your High Court route - although that lad seems to have been a certified nutter - the one in South Dublin last year..). They could mix up their pairings more often so the speeders are not always out with the same mates each weekend. They could do a few things like that.

The point is though, that you need commitment from the clubs to identify if there is a problem in the first place. You then need them to be resolved enough to tackle it, and then finally you need them to have the balls to see it through. That's probably asking a lot for this issue fixed across the board...

newport2

DiegoWorst wrote: »

I think the GUI and golf clubs can do much more to highlight what is handicap cheating, and how unacceptable it is.
The number of people I've played with who feel its acceptable to pull for a few shots. "everyone else is doing it, why shouldn't I".
Its a culture thing - winning prizes is far more important than lowering one's handicap.

BTW, I'm heartened by the handicap goals thread on this forum - it does show there are a lot of like-minded people who strive to play their best golf everytime they tee it up.

Agreed.

Would like to see notices beside where scores are entered, in the pro-shop and locker-rooms saying along the lines of:

"Did you play to your best ability?
Does the score you're entering reflect this?
If not, you are CHEATING :mad:. Yourself and your fellow golfers.
Play against the course, not the system."

From speaking to people over the years, quite a few seem to think that sandbagging is not cheating. It won't eradicate it, but it should be drilled home more IMO.

Anatom

GreeBo wrote: »

36 points is 36 points, how do you define 36 points from "good golf"?

To me, 36 points is dreamland golf, not just "good golf"...

Boskowski

gman127 wrote: »

Make every prize be a voucher.

But the value of it will be divided by your handicap!!

100 euro voucher:

• 20 handicap wins - get a fiver!
• 10 handicapper gets a tenner
• scratch golfer takes the full hundred!

Actually I was half joking when I started typing but I quite like the idea now!

Reward good golf, not good handicap management.

A high man can still win but not as much and a low man has put the work in to get his handicap down so deserves a better reward

While I like the idea of putting more focus on winning for honour and recognition and pride I think that would be a bit harsh. The majority of golfers are high to mid, a small minority is low and only a fraction are scratch. It would be an unfair distortion of the competition and I'd predict a lot of golfers would drop out of the weekly comp circle or be so pi$$ed off with that they might give it up altogether. And what about the poor old lads who simply won't improve due to age. The whole concept of handicapping is to level the playing field in the first place.
But the general idea of incentivising improvement over winning stuff is very good I think.

GreeBo

Anatom wrote: »

To me, 36 points is dreamland golf, not just "good golf"...

Irrespective of how you shoot it, 36 points is directly equal to 36 points though, that's the point!

I have to say that I have never seen someone manipulate their handicap in 25 years of golf.

Anatom

GreeBo wrote: »

Irrespective of how you shoot it, 36 points is directly equal to 36 points though, that's the point!

I have to say that I have never seen someone manipulate their handicap in 25 years of golf.

Really? If you take "manipulation" to mean avoiding 0.1s on the way up or down by not handing in a sh*t card for example, then I've seen quite a few. Not in my current club it has to be said, but quite a few elsewhere...

Russman

Even if there were a platoon of semi professional handicap secs roaming the fairways - what good is that other than catching outright cheating such as kicking the ball, writing down the wrong score etc. ? It would do nothing for handicap monitoring. A topped 5 iron is a topped 5 iron, how can anyone but the player judge whether he meant to do it ?
Two players can hit the exact same bad shot out of bounds, one may have been trying to hit a good one and one may be "pulling" - its impossible to tell which though. As we all know only too well, the previous hole or nine holes is no indication of what the next might bring.

Truth is, the vast, vast majority of players get 0.1 most times they play, the couple of good rounds they have each season is usually balanced out by the number of 0.1s they get and is why most players stay more or less the same handicap year on year.

newport2

GreeBo wrote: »

Irrespective of how you shoot it, 36 points is directly equal to 36 points though, that's the point!

I have to say that I have never seen someone manipulate their handicap in 25 years of golf.

You're a lucky man so Greebo.

I've seen it happen.

I've heard people openly advise others to do it, ie tell them to make sure they don't get cut in the weekend singles before some big comp, with them heartily agreeing.

I've heard people admitting to doing it and arguing that it's within the system, so it's not cheating.

GreeBo

Anatom wrote: »

Really? If you take "manipulation" to mean avoiding 0.1s on the way up or down by not handing in a sh*t card for example, then I've seen quite a few. Not in my current club it has to be said, but quite a few elsewhere...

Nope, never seen it. We apply 0.1 for NR's so that side isn't an issue.

Have I seen people with a pretty good score have a poor finish? Sure.
Do I think that's pulling? No way of knowing and no proof possible either way.
Golf is a game of personal honour, you cant go hounding people just because you think they are doing something wrong imo.

GreeBo

newport2 wrote: »

You're a lucky man so Greebo.

I've seen it happen.

I've heard people openly advise others to do it, ie tell them to make sure they don't get cut in the weekend singles before some big comp, with them heartily agreeing.

I've heard people admitting to doing it and arguing that it's within the system, so it's not cheating.

You'll often hear people complaining that they get cut and wont make teams now, but they still get cut.

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

I have to say that I have never seen someone manipulate their handicap in 25 years of golf.

I think I've seen it twice. Once was when I was a kid and a guy I played with whacked his ball back and forth on the 18th green for 5 putts I think. I hadn't a clue what he was doing at the time. Funny thing is he was off 27 and you could give him 47 and he still wouldn't win.

The other time was about 2 years ago when I suspect (but only suspect) a guy intentionally bogeyed a hole by doffing a chip. He had been going fairly well, but then holed out his second shot on a par 4 which I reckoned put him in or close to ESR territory. So with my cynical head on I think he conveniently duffed the chip on the next hole. But, and this is key to any bandit debate, I can't prove anything.

kieran.

gman127 wrote: »

deserves a better reward

Don't agree with this statement the ethos of the handicap system is that it should be a level playing field. By your design your rewarding natural ability this is a entity some players don't and never will possess.

Anatom

GreeBo wrote: »

Nope, never seen it. We apply 0.1 for NR's so that side isn't an issue.

Have I seen people with a pretty good score have a poor finish? Sure.
Do I think that's pulling? No way of knowing and no proof possible either way.
Golf is a game of personal honour, you cant go hounding people just because you think they are doing something wrong imo.

And that was my first point earlier I suppose. Its all to do with personal responsibility. Most people have it. A small minority don't, and like the twit in the BMW 3-series speeding past us, most of us get really annoyed with them. What we really need to see is a policeman pulling him in around the next corner to put the smile back on our faces...

Getting 0.1 for a NR is a great idea btw...

Russman

Anatom wrote: »

Really? If you take "manipulation" to mean avoiding 0.1s on the way up or down by not handing in a sh*t card for example, then I've seen quite a few. Not in my current club it has to be said, but quite a few elsewhere...

This is or was problem in my club a few years ago. Low men not putting in bad cards to avoid 0.1, seen that happen on many occasions alright.
They've mostly left now though.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

The other time was about 2 years ago when I suspect (but only suspect) a guy intentionally bogeyed a hole by doffing a chip. He had been going fairly well, but then holed out his second shot on a par 4 which I reckoned put him in or close to ESR territory. So with my cynical head on I think he conveniently duffed the chip on the next hole. But, and this is key to any bandit debate, I can't prove anything.

What handicap was/is he?

Did he duff any shots before the incident?
To me its a bit like seeing communism everywhere you looked back in the 80's.
Guys duff shots, Tiger duffed about 5 just before Christmas and he wasn't looking for 0.1 back.

newport2

newport2 wrote: »

You're a lucky man so Greebo.

I've seen it happen.

I've heard people openly advise others to do it, ie tell them to make sure they don't get cut in the weekend singles before some big comp, with them heartily agreeing.

I've heard people admitting to doing it and arguing that it's within the system, so it's not cheating.

GreeBo wrote: »

You'll often hear people complaining that they get cut and wont make teams now, but they still get cut.

I don't get the connection in your reply to my post Greebo?

Slicemeister

Russman wrote: »

I think I've seen it twice. Once was when I was a kid and a guy I played with whacked his ball back and forth on the 18th green for 5 putts I think. I hadn't a clue what he was doing at the time. Funny thing is he was off 27 and you could give him 47 and he still wouldn't win.

The other time was about 2 years ago when I suspect (but only suspect) a guy intentionally bogeyed a hole by doffing a chip. He had been going fairly well, but then holed out his second shot on a par 4 which I reckoned put him in or close to ESR territory. So with my cynical head on I think he conveniently duffed the chip on the next hole. But, and this is key to any bandit debate, I can't prove anything.

Good luck trying to report or pull the second guy up!

Open draws for each individual hour on comp day to be done the night before. I sign up for 8-9, I get out between 8-9 with an unknown or acquaintance.
Too many lads playing regular golf together imo.

Russman

newport2 wrote: »

I've heard people openly advise others to do it, ie tell them to make sure they don't get cut in the weekend singles before some big comp, with them heartily agreeing.

I've heard people admitting to doing it and arguing that it's within the system, so it's not cheating.

I think we've all heard or seen that. But, and its only my own take on it, I reckon an awful lot of that is just big talk tbh. The whole "I could play better if I'd wanted to" ego thing. Golfers don't usually admit to playing poorly, its always the wind, or the rain, or the hard ground, or the greens, or the slow play, or "sure I was only out to get 0.1", etc etc.
Not saying that's 100% of instances but I do think its a lot.

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

What handicap was/is he?

Did he duff any shots before the incident?
To me its a bit like seeing communism everywhere you looked back in the 80's.
Guys duff shots, Tiger duffed about 5 just before Christmas and he wasn't looking for 0.1 back.

Think he was around 13. Can't remember if he duffed anything earlier.
Absolutely I have no proof at all, and I would always give the benefit of the doubt, there was just a little voice in my head wondering.

I should add he won anyway, wasn't a big comp, just a regular sunday singles, and broke CSS by a few shots, so perhaps my cynical thoughts were incorrect.

newport2

Russman wrote: »

I think we've all heard or seen that. But, and its only my own take on it, I reckon an awful lot of that is just big talk tbh. The whole "I could play better if I'd wanted to" ego thing. Golfers don't usually admit to playing poorly, its always the wind, or the rain, or the hard ground, or the greens, or the slow play, or "sure I was only out to get 0.1", etc etc.
Not saying that's 100% of instances but I do think its a lot.

Fair point to an extent, big talk does happen. But not in all cases. Like I said, some have admitted and tried to justify it.

Russman

Slicemeister wrote: »

Good luck trying to report or pull the second guy up!

Open draws for each individual hour on comp day to be done the night before. I sign up for 8-9, I get out between 8-9 with an unknown or acquaintance.
Too many lads playing regular golf together imo.

Oh I would never report or pull someone on the likes of that. Sure there's nothing to report and no rule broken. Its golf, people hit bad shots all the time.

Open draws for big comps alright, but I'd also bear in mind that for 99.9% of people, its their social outlet, they surely have a right to play their pastime with their friends rather than a random stranger every weekend.

GreeBo

newport2 wrote: »

I don't get the connection in your reply to my post Greebo?

Just that I often hear people in the locker room moaning that they will now not make teams. To me thats an indication that they are not pulling in a situation where it would be advantageous to do so.


Lots of people see a guy who has been off say 13 for over 10 years.
Some day he shoots a 5 over and there is uproar that he is a bandit off 13.

There is never anyone demanding he gets more shots back when he is busy shooting 22 points though.

If the absolute best in the world can regularly have 10 shots swings within 24 hours, making assumptions on the scores a random amateur shoots from one week to the next seems silly to me.

The reason there are so many people complaining is two fold.

1) Most people dont understand the CONGU handicapping system and the expected scores.

2) See #1.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

I think we've all heard or seen that. But, and its only my own take on it, I reckon an awful lot of that is just big talk tbh. The whole "I could play better if I'd wanted to" ego thing. Golfers don't usually admit to playing poorly, its always the wind, or the rain, or the hard ground, or the greens, or the slow play, or "sure I was only out to get 0.1", etc etc.
Not saying that's 100% of instances but I do think its a lot.

I think its also that people judge ability (theirs and others) based on the good shots they see. The bad shots are ignored.
This leads to too high expectations of others and ourselves.

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

Lots of people see a guy who has been off say 13 for over 10 years.
Some day he shoots a 5 over and there is uproar that he is a bandit off 13.

There is never anyone demanding he gets more shots back when he is busy shooting 22 points though.

If the absolute best in the world can regularly have 10 shots swings within 24 hours, making assumptions on the scores a random amateur shoots from one week to the next seems silly to me.

The reason there are so many people complaining is two fold.

1) Most people dont understand the CONGU handicapping system and the expected scores.

2) See #1.

All of this ^^^ but especially the bolded part is the nub of the issue for me.

Rikand

GreeBo wrote: »

Irrespective of how you shoot it, 36 points is directly equal to 36 points though, that's the point!

I have to say that I have never seen someone manipulate their handicap in 25 years of golf.

You're very fortunate. Playing at numerous clubs, I have seen it in both regards. People trying to get their handicap higher or those trying to keep it lower.

Fellas throwing in the random 4-putt from 5 feet on the 17th/18th hole or low lads simply not entering their card when they've had a bad score.

I played with a low fella one time who deliberately didn't sign into the comp at the start, returned a bad score and then jumped in his car and drove home. You can be damn sure if he went under par, he'd have been racing inside to post his score.

newport2

GreeBo wrote: »

Just that I often hear people in the locker room moaning that they will now not make teams. To me thats an indication that they are not pulling in a situation where it would be advantageous to do so.


Lots of people see a guy who has been off say 13 for over 10 years.
Some day he shoots a 5 over and there is uproar that he is a bandit off 13.

There is never anyone demanding he gets more shots back when he is busy shooting 22 points though.

If the absolute best in the world can regularly have 10 shots swings within 24 hours, making assumptions on the scores a random amateur shoots from one week to the next seems silly to me.

The reason there are so many people complaining is two fold.

1) Most people dont understand the CONGU handicapping system and the expected scores.

2) See #1.

I would agree with everything you say above, but what you describe isn't what I would refer to as a bandit/cheat.

An example I encountered was someone who came in the top 5 of all big comps in one year, winning several of them and gaining back .1's in virtually every other comp. I played with him quite regularly, I know how good and consistent he is. On one occasion I heard him telling someone to do their best to get as many .1's as possible to make themselves eligible for a team coming up in a few months. On another he was advising someone to purposely avoid getting cut before the Captain's Prize. Both of these were a perfect reflection of his own behaviour.

A rare case I'm sure, but makes my blood boil. So I'll leave it there

fearruanua

Rikand wrote: »

I played with a low fella one time who deliberately didn't sign into the comp at the start, returned a bad score and then jumped in his car and drove home. You can be damn sure if he went under par, he'd have been racing inside to post his score.

The lesser of two evils??

GreeBo

Rikand wrote: »

You're very fortunate. Playing at numerous clubs, I have seen it in both regards. People trying to get their handicap higher or those trying to keep it lower.

Fellas throwing in the random 4-putt from 5 feet on the 17th/18th hole or low lads simply not entering their card when they've had a bad score.

I wouldn't play with someone who did that, it doesnt long to get a reputation for that sort of thing. Thats when something can be done.

Rikand wrote: »

I played with a low fella one time who deliberately didn't sign into the comp at the start, returned a bad score and then jumped in his car and drove home. You can be damn sure if he went under par, he'd have been racing inside to post his score.

We have a 90 minute delay between when you enter the comp and when you can enter your score to try to prevent this.

Russman

Rikand wrote: »

I played with a low fella one time who deliberately didn't sign into the comp at the start, returned a bad score and then jumped in his car and drove home. You can be damn sure if he went under par, he'd have been racing inside to post his score.

I've seen this on I'd say, hundreds of occasions. The big weakness in my club is that the computer isn't in the shop where you pay, its in the corridor outside, so guys can easily pay, not sign in, play and then decide if they'll officially enter the comp. Nobody ever does a formal check of names in the book versus names on the computer. I did one time just for sh1ts and giggles, and over 6 random comps, an average of roughly 120 names in the book Vs around 95 in the computer.

Rikand

GreeBo wrote: »

We have a 90 minute delay between when you enter the comp and when you can enter your score to try to prevent this.

That's a good idea alright. I'm not sure if that's in place in Athlone. I've never had to test it out

Rikand

Russman wrote: »

I've seen this on I'd say, hundreds of occasions. The big weakness in my club is that the computer isn't in the shop where you pay, its in the corridor outside, so guys can easily pay, not sign in, play and then decide if they'll officially enter the comp. Nobody ever does a formal check of names in the book versus names on the computer. I did one time just for sh1ts and giggles, and over 6 random comps, an average of roughly 120 names in the book Vs around 95 in the computer.

We were checking them in Athlone a few years ago. As far as I know it's still done. But anyone who was entering competitions in the book and not the computer, got letters sent home with information for them on their responsibilities in entering competitions and what future failure to adhere to those responsibilities could result in.

GreeBo

Rikand wrote: »

That's a good idea alright. I'm not sure if that's in place in Athlone. I've never had to test it out

Its a pain in the ass if you accidentally enter the outer 12 hole comp when you were actually playing the inner 12

Rikand

fearruanua wrote: »

The lesser of two evils??

It's still manipulating your handicap - the main reason I would say he was doing it was so he could probably enter low handicap championships. He bragged about playing at the Mullingar Scratch Cup. About playing at the North of Ireland, etc...

Which is unfair as it's possibly restricting a genuinely good and fair golfer from getting in to those tournaments

Can't for the life of me remember his name and I'd never say it anyways, but I'm sure I'd remember the face. It wasn't in Athlone either, It was at another club

GreeBo

fearruanua wrote: »

The lesser of two evils??

A victimless crime, like punching someone in the dark.

Nemesis

http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/fighting_back.html

Some ideas here even if it is in the US.

GreeBo

Nemesis wrote: »

http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/fighting_back.html

Some ideas here even if it is in the US.

It should be pretty easy to run someones scores against the expected distribution, if they dont even nearly match then questions can be asked.

If someone isnt playing enough golf to get a good statistical result, perhaps their handicaps shouldnt be valid outside of their own club?

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

It should be pretty easy to run someones scores against the expected distribution, if they dont even nearly match then questions can be asked.

If someone isnt playing enough golf to get a good statistical result, perhaps their handicaps shouldnt be valid outside of their own club?

Yeah, interesting stuff alright, but I'm wary of comparing real life scores to what the maths says they should be shooting. Is it that big an issue, really ?

What handicap would they get then if they wanted to legitimately play an open somewhere ? (although it fits nicely with the distance debate !:D:D )
I think that's putting another parameter into obtaining a handicap.
I'm not a fan of the US system tbh, but I'm not sure we need to reinvent the wheel for the IMO very few genuine bandits. If for no other reason than some people will always cheat no matter what, and sometimes the conditions of play might be so onerous and possibly take more enjoyment out of the game for the 99% of honest golfers out there.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

Yeah, interesting stuff alright, but I'm wary of comparing real life scores to what the maths says they should be shooting. Is it that big an issue, really ?

You'd weight it, but CONGU themselves rely on it, thats where the system comes from, so if you have someone who is frequently wildly outside the norm, at least it gives you somewhere to look.

Russman wrote: »

What handicap would they get then if they wanted to legitimately play an open somewhere ? (although it fits nicely with the distance debate !:D:D )
I think that's putting another parameter into obtaining a handicap.
I'm not a fan of the US system tbh, but I'm not sure we need to reinvent the wheel for the IMO very few genuine bandits. If for no other reason than some people will always cheat no matter what, and sometimes the conditions of play might be so onerous and possibly take more enjoyment out of the game for the 99% of honest golfers out there.

Can they legitimately play if they are not playing "enough" rounds in their home club? The only way the system works is if you are playing competitions honestly and your handicap gets adjusted.
If you aren't playing "enough" then your handicap wont reflect your ability (in either direction)

Boskowski

I've seen it and I have heard people admitting to it. 3 putting the last three holes for example. Reasoning was because others do it and they didn't want to play these guys in next years matchplay if they didn't have a couple of shots in the bag themselves.

Or people admitting to 'no good shooting buffer zone'. I'll either win something or I get .1 back, what good is 35 points. Or I'm not getting cut if I can't win something, what good is 38 points.

Edit: And they were quite blasé about it. I suppose where would I be going with that knowledge anyway? They could just deny everything.

GreeBo

Boskowski wrote: »

I've seen it and I have heard people admitting to it. 3 putting the last three holes for example. Reasoning was because others do it and they didn't want to play these guys in next years matchplay if they didn't have a couple of shots in the bag themselves.

Or people admitting to 'no good shooting buffer zone'. I'll either win something or I get .1 back, what good is 35 points. Or I'm not getting cut if I can't win something, what good is 38 points.

Edit: And they were quite blasé about it. I suppose where would I be going with that knowledge anyway? They could just deny everything.

If someone actually said that I would report it.

gman127

GreeBo wrote: »

36 points is 36 points, how do you define 36 points from "good golf"?

Well I suppose a gross 72 for 36 points would have to be deemed better than a gross 100 for 36 points.

I just think quality golf deserves a bit more return for what has to have been much more effort put in.

I'm a mid-handicapper myself and I would love to win a gross prize some day rather than shooting 38 points off 12.

Have a look at your own results sheet in your club and read through the winning scores and handicaps. I'm not saying anyone is doing anything wrong but if a guy off 2, let's say, was to win a turkey the bird he gets should be the size of an ostrich!!

SaveOurLyric

GreeBo wrote: »

If someone actually said that I would report it.

Would you really though ? Really ? And name them to your handicap committee ?
What would you expect the outcome of such a reporting to be ?

SaveOurLyric

Russman wrote: »

Yeah, interesting stuff alright, but I'm wary of comparing real life scores to what the maths says they should be shooting. Is it that big an issue, really ?

Compary to what the maths says is already what happens as a flag for annual review consideration.
I would be interested in a study by Congu of making this a rolling round-by-round process, with a view to making the adjustments an automatic algorithm. Interesting masters topic for someone mathematically inclined.