Toddler shoots parent dead in Super Market

Sheep Lover · 03-01-2015 5:20pm

MadsL wrote: »

Is there the possibility that he chooses to put the knife down?

It's a hypothetical question so anythings possible I suppose.

I just don't see how the addition of a gun will calm the situation is all. If anything it will make tensions more strained which leads to irrational decisions

MadsL · 03-01-2015 5:24pm

Sheep Lover wrote: »

It's a hypothetical question so anythings possible I suppose.

So your assumption that I wish to blow this guys head off is in fact not correct?

I just don't see how the addition of a gun will calm the situation is all. If anything it will make tensions more strained which leads to irrational decisions

Because we are in the arena of the rational when someone has a knife at their throat? Really?

pmasterson95 · 03-01-2015 5:30pm

MadsL wrote: »

So you cannot explain your non-lethal scenario.

Thought so. Bye now.

Right so lets see how people get on without a gun. Lets see can people survive without shooting people

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/hero-neighbour-helps-family-fight-off-knife-intruders-26545941.html

intruder with knife wrestled and restrained. Not a gun in sight.

From America
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/15-year-old-girl-and-stepmom-fight-off-intruders
15 year old fights off gun toting intruder. Wow not a gun in sight

Uk
http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/story/2014-09-08/great-grandfather-fights-off-armed-intruders/

man fights off crowbar wielders not a gun in sight.

Not even a weapon for those three above let alone a gun

This is my favourite

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/texas-grandma-fights-home-intruder-stick-boiling-water-article-1.1858075

83 years old. Saves herself with hot water and a stick after being in a chokehold. (although this intruder doesn't have weapon himself)

So please tell me again how people cant fight off weapon wielding intruders without a gun and its "zen fantasy" not to want to end peoples lives. Not a single death in any of my examples. Aside from the 83 year old not even a "defence" weapon. Cmon tell me again how its fantasy not to have to kill someone?

Are all these people fantasists and that its not possible? Non life ending means look it happens not everyone feels a need to kill.

Sheep Lover · 03-01-2015 5:31pm

MadsL wrote: »

Because we are in the arena of the rational when someone has a knife at their throat? Really?

Exactly, so pointing a gun at his head seems logical to you?

MadsL · 03-01-2015 5:35pm

pmasterson95 wrote:

Right so lets see how people get on without a gun. Lets see can people survive without shooting people

You are still struggling to understand. How, in the scenario I described would YOU disarm the attacker?

I have a strength of force advantage. You do not.

Sheep Lover · 03-01-2015 5:38pm

MadsL wrote: »

I have a strength of force advantage. You do not.

He has a hostage, you've nothing. He makes the decisions

pmasterson95 · 03-01-2015 5:39pm

MadsL wrote: »

You are still struggling to understand. How, in the scenario I described would YOU disarm the attacker?

I have a strength of force advantage. You do not.

And you obviously cannot read the examples I posted of people surviving without a gun or not having to kill people. Like I said I dont need to kill people. Others may feel that need. Case closed. You want discussion but when evidence is shown of non lethal also working you ignore it to further shooty shooty agenda. Thats not discussion. Gluck

(altho you use you own use of links few pages ago to show how people need guns as supermarkets are dangerous, links to support gun agenda fine, other links = ignore)

MadsL · 03-01-2015 5:45pm

Is it very sticky in the corner you painted yourself into?

Again, non or your links describe the situation. How do YOU proceed?

pmasterson95 · 03-01-2015 5:51pm

MadsL wrote: »

Is it very sticky in the corner you painted yourself into?

Again, non or your links describe the situation. How do YOU proceed?

I masterbate. Then the corner gets sticky. Its not sticky now. I tried talking but you are obsessed with knowing what I would do. Its not like what I'd say would make a difference. You would just say it wouldnt work guns are better or too slow shes dead (even tho shes already dead) its a dead horse you've been flogging for two pages. Gluck to ya. This is just boring. I'm not gunna get in **** with mods over likes of you.

giles lynchwood · 03-01-2015 5:58pm

We have strict firearms laws which prevent criminals from getting access to guns and shooting each other in public endangering law abiding people going about their business everyday.:rolleyes:

MadsL · 03-01-2015 6:06pm

pmasterson95 wrote:

I masterbate. Then the corner gets sticky. Its not sticky now. I tried talking but you are obsessed with knowing what I would do. Its not like what I'd say would make a difference. You would just say it wouldnt work guns are better or too slow shes dead (even tho shes already dead) its a dead horse you've been flogging for two pages. Gluck to ya. This is just boring. I'm not gunna get in **** with mods over likes of you.

Oh Dear. Asking you to explain your position is not obsession, it is the way discussion works.

The Diabolical Monocle · 03-01-2015 6:11pm

MadsL wrote: »

Is it very sticky in the corner you painted yourself into?

Again, non or your links describe the situation. How do YOU proceed?

Indeed he did. Im sure many do - what-iffery is cheap and in endless supply.

Manic Moran · 03-01-2015 6:24pm

pmasterson95 wrote: »

So please tell me again how people cant fight off weapon wielding intruders without a gun and its "zen fantasy" not to want to end peoples lives. Not a single death in any of my examples. Aside from the 83 year old not even a "defence" weapon. Cmon tell me again how its fantasy not to have to kill someone?

Are all these people fantasists and that its not possible? Non life ending means look it happens not everyone feels a need to kill.

Absolutely it's possible. It doesn't, however, mean that it's as likely or easy. There was an eighty-something year old woman hired by the Italian Army to beat up its recruits. (look up The Samurai Granny). That does not mean that I would feel in anyway confident that -I- could beat up Italian recruits at my age, let alone when I'm in my eighties. Situations are never equal. However, having a sidearm does tilt the balance a bit more in your favour. (You've heard the term "God created all men. Sam Colt made them all equal"? Phrase was invented for a reason.)

If it were such a given that one can defend oneself without a sidearm, then why does almost every police force in the world arm their officers with sidearms? It's not so that they can blast away at people they want dead, it's for their personal protection as not other tool can do the same job.

Trigger Happy wrote: »

If everyone is going round ready to shoot everyone else all the time then lots of innocent people will get killed.

I would honestly hate to live my life in such fear that I needed to carry a gun.
If I get mugged I would rather give the $100 I have on me then have the guilt on my conscience of having killed someone, no matter how horrible that person may have been.

But I also know that I will never convince the pro-gun lobby that I am right, and the pro-gun lobby will convince me that they are right. So we agree to differ.

With respect to your first paragraph, that has proven to be not true. Over the past three decades, most of the US's States have started issuing concealed weapons permits, and in not a single case has the murder rate gone up. Indeed, CCW holders as a group are one of the most law-abiding demographics in the country.

With respect to your second paragraph, that's a moral decision I will not try to talk you out of. It's actually the exact same statement that one of my soldiers came to me with when we were told we were going to Afghanistan. It limited his duties, but as he was a medic, we found a job for him which did not entail routinely carrying a weapon. That said, -somebody- needed to carry a weapon, so he swapped with another medic with different opinions on the matter. What was that phrase from Lords of the Rings? Those who refuse to live by the sword can still die by the sword.

pmasterson95 · 04-01-2015 8:36am

Manic Moran wrote: »

Absolutely it's possible. It doesn't, however, mean that it's as likely or easy. There was an eighty-something year old woman hired by the Italian Army to beat up its recruits. (look up The Samurai Granny). That does not mean that I would feel in anyway confident that -I- could beat up Italian recruits at my age, let alone when I'm in my eighties.

While I dont agree with your views on guns I can respect you. Its not just a rabid bloodlust that you have. You were capable of acknowledging that people can survive without a gun. Not everyone thinks as smart or as logically as you.

04-01-2015 10:57am

Bog Standard User wrote: »

ok so she left her handbag with a loaded gun in reach of a two year old.

what kinda of dumbass doesnt think the child wouldnt wanna open the handbag to look inside while sitting bored in the child seat on the trolley

I think that the problem is that some people become so used to carrying a firearm they become complacent. I have seen this with some armed police. After many years of carrying a firearm they take their gun off and leave it lying around their house or car. I am not suggesting that all do this, but certainly some do.

MadsL · 04-01-2015 8:04pm

pmasterson95 wrote: »

While I dont agree with your views on guns I can respect you. Its not just a rabid bloodlust that you have. You were capable of acknowledging that people can survive without a gun. Not everyone thinks as smart or as logically as you.

Of course people can survive violent attacks without a gun. I gave you a account of a woman I know who did. The question that you are still struggling with is that in some scenarios the only thing that makes a weak person stronger than their attacker is a gun. This is why people carry them.

I have given up hope of you answering the question I put to you, at least Sheep Lover pointed out that a hostage balances the forces at play. But not everyone thinks as smart or as logically as him.

AlanS181824 · 04-01-2015 8:29pm

Awful, why does a grown women need go carry around a gun in the first place though?

MadsL · 04-01-2015 8:31pm

AlanS181824 wrote: »

Awful, why does a grown women need go carry around a gun in the first place though?

To defend herself and her child in public. She has that right, and following appropriate training and background checks, she has the legal right to do so.

AlanS181824 · 04-01-2015 8:48pm

MadsL wrote: »

To defend herself and her child in public. She has that right, and following appropriate training and background checks, she has the legal right to do so.

Isn't that what the police service are for though?

BattleCorp · 04-01-2015 9:42pm

AlanS181824 wrote: »

Isn't that what the police service are for though?

It can be hard to get Gardai quickly here in Ireland if you need them urgently and this is a small place.

America is so vast that it could take a day in some parts to get a cop if you needed one.

I have no problem with the woman being armed. My problem is with how careless she was to leave it where a child could access it.

MadsL · 04-01-2015 9:47pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

It can be hard to get Gardai quickly here in Ireland if you need them urgently and this is a small place.

America is so vast that it could take a day in some parts to get a cop if you needed one.

I have no problem with the woman being armed. My problem is with how careless she was to leave it where a child could access it.

I agree in the sense that she left it near the child without her full attention, however I can see how a hidden concealment pocket could have lulled her into a false sense of security.

Tragic mistake.

MadsL · 04-01-2015 9:48pm

AlanS181824 wrote: »

Isn't that what the police service are for though?

Would you wait for the cops and do nothing if you were attacked in the street or public place, or would you try to defend yourself?

The Diabolical Monocle · 04-01-2015 9:54pm

MadsL wrote: »

Would you wait for the cops and do nothing if you were attacked in the street or public place, or would you try to defend yourself?

what if what if what if.

what if someone went into a cinema and had a really fast really high capacity weapon and splattered a crowd of 50 people all over the place in mere seconds.

that what if never sees the light of day in your world.

the only what ifs from you run along the lines of what if you're a granny in a wheelchair hunting a bear that broke in to your house.

MadsL · 04-01-2015 9:58pm

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

what if what if what if.

what if someone went into a cinema and had a really fast really high capacity weapon and splattered a crowd of 50 people all over the place in mere seconds.

that what if never sees the light of day in your world.

the only what ifs from you run along the lines of what if you're a granny in a wheelchair hunting a bear that broke in to your house.

???

I fail to see how asking if someone would defend themselves or wait for AGS to show up is whatifery?

Do you not believe someone has the right to take all legal steps to defend themselves including lethal force?

FISMA · 04-01-2015 10:23pm

AlanS181824 wrote: »

Isn't that what the police service are for though?

Point of fact, you are wrong.

The Police in the States are there to keep the peace in general. They are not your bodyguard.

They are not there to protect you as an individual. They are not responsible for your life, nor are they liable.

This has been decided in several cases by supreme courts: the Police are to keep the peace in general.

When, for example, a riot, like that in Los Angeles or natural disaster, like Katrina occurs, the Police have every right to walk off the job in order to protect their safety. They will neither be liable nor negligent if you are robbed, murdered, beaten, or raped, while they walked off the job.

That is in stark contrast to the role of the Garda Síochána in Eire.

Also, in contrast is that in the States, we believe that an individual has the right to defend themselves. In Ireland, you do not legally believe so.

BoatMad · 04-01-2015 10:29pm

MadsL wrote: »

???

I fail to see how asking if someone would defend themselves or wait for AGS to show up is whatifery?

Do you not believe someone has the right to take all legal steps to defend themselves including lethal force?

Indeed you do, but that "right" in most countries is surrounded by severe restraints and protections.

Otherwise you get the situation that in the US, the people feel abandoned by their police and feel they must defend themselves against all comers.

more of this will occur, as the carry laws expand.

04-01-2015 10:29pm

My own belief is that if we were allowed to carry firearms for self defence in Ireland the net result would be that the chances of being a victim would be far greater.

The Diabolical Monocle · 04-01-2015 10:30pm

MadsL wrote: »

???

I fail to see how asking if someone would defend themselves or wait for AGS to show up is whatifery?

Do you not believe someone has the right to take all legal steps to defend themselves including lethal force?

For any hypothetical situation, or any anecdote or news story that you can give which shows a gun rescuing the helpless children, I can give or find one showing a nutter using a gun to kill the helpless children.

It proves nothing. Its hot air.

Theres at least one person out there in the US who died needlessly because landmines are restricted. Had he/she been allowed to wire the house up like a responsible registered and legally trained landmine owner the burglar boogieman wouldn't have killed them.
Ergo legalize landmines, save the public from criminals.

AlanS181824 · 04-01-2015 10:31pm

MadsL wrote: »

Would you wait for the cops and do nothing if you were attacked in the street or public place, or would you try to defend yourself?

I would try to get out of there as quick as possible and let the police do their job.

Violence is never the answer IMO.

MadsL · 04-01-2015 10:34pm

AlanS181824 wrote: »

I would try to get out of there as quick as possible and let the police do their job.

Violence is never the answer IMO.

Self defence isn't violence IMO.

Toddler shoots parent dead in Super Market

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