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Britian's poorest going hungry: Are we heading the same way?

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    #542
    Electric Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 2,106 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    ireland.man wrote: »
    As someone who's going through that, especially a few days after Christmas, you're an absolute, utter tw*t.

    As someone who has had a family member commit suicide, I think we have different definitions of distraught.


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    #543
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    And if their parents can't afford them they don't get them.

    Sigh,

    Look up DEIS schools, schools in disadvantaged areas. Students falling behind get special needs assistance, effectively free grinds.

    Why. Do. I. Bother.


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    #544
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    smcgiff wrote: »
    Sigh,

    Look up DEIS schools, schools in disadvantaged areas. Students falling behind get special needs assistance, effectively free grinds.

    Why. Do. I. Bother.
    Amazingly, we now have the claim that the poor get a better education than the rich! Entertaining if nothing else!


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    #545
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Amazingly, we now have the claim that the poor get a better education than the rich! Entertaining if nothing else!

    They get more resources from the state and smaller classes. So, yes.

    Does this not fit in with your worldview?


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    #546
    ireland.man
    Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭ireland.man


    smcgiff wrote: »
    But you're advantaged by natural ability. Many students that require grinds do so for basic understanding, and bring them up to a level where they can keep up in school. Should these children remain left behind?

    That's very interesting. Isn't a meritocracy an unfair system by its nature? The man who invented the term itself seems to have meant it as a warning of a future society which assumed smarter people deserved more power and wealth.


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    #547
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    smcgiff wrote: »
    But you're advantaged by natural ability. Many students that require grinds do so for basic understanding, and bring them up to a level where they can keep up in school. Should these children remain left behind?

    But that's the point of the leaving cert to find out who has the best ability. It's there to determine who has the greatest academic ability. Who said it's to get everyone into college?

    And that's the nub of my problem. I don't think money should be used to camouflage a lack of natural ability.


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    #548
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Wamsung wrote: »
    Who said that a child deserves a better education than another?

    What was missing from your education?

    Some subjects weren't offered or were offered but not at higher level. That's a problem with the school but I was competing with less academic student who had far better teachers and subject range.


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    #549
    ireland.man
    Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭ireland.man


    Electric Sheep wrote: »
    As someone who has had a family member commit suicide, I think we have different definitions of distraught.

    I'll send you a message.


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    #550
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    ireland.man wrote: »
    The man who invented the term itself seems to have meant it as a warning of a future society which assumed smarter people deserved more power and wealth.

    Better than having stupid people in power. Try and resist the obvious ;)


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    #551
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I don't think money should be used to camouflage a lack of natural ability.

    Does that include physical deficiencies?

    Would it be better spent on a new family car?

    In a democracy you can't prohibit people from bettering themselves.


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    #552
    IrlMonk
    Registered Users Posts: 429 ✭✭IrlMonk


    50% of people are pure saps on boards.ie
    no emphaty for fellow man.
    sad foolish children, with more troubles than they realise


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    #553
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    smcgiff wrote: »
    Does that include physical deficiencies?

    Would it be better spent on a new family car?

    In a democracy you can't prohibit people from bettering themselves.

    No people with physical deficiencies shouldn't be excluded.

    No it wouldn't but it shouldn't.

    Are all children entitled to the same standard of education or do you think the family you are born into should determine that?

    No you can't but it make sense that the brightest should receive the best education and not the ones with relatively well off parents.


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    #554
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    No people with physical deficiencies shouldn't be excluded.

    No it wouldn't but it shouldn't.

    Are all children entitled to the same standard of education or do you think the family you are born into should determine that?

    No you can't but it make sense that the brightest should receive the best education and not the ones with relatively well off parents.

    Everyone should be given a high standard of education. AND I don't begrudge less well off kids getting substantially more resources in Deis schools.

    Then it's up to everyone to provide the best for their children.


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    #555
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Money can of course help people who have learning difficulties achieve their best in life.
    If someone has a grind does that also mean that they are cheating others?

    This whole discussion is a wind up imo.


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    #556
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Steddyeddy/Dan-Solo,

    If ye had children and they were falling behind academically and you could afford it would you pay for grinds for them?


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    #557
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    smcgiff wrote: »
    Steddyeddy/Dan-Solo,

    If ye had children and they were falling behind academically and you could afford it would you pay for grinds for them?
    That's irrelevant as to whether rich kids get better education or not.
    You do know that, right? Well you do now.


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    #558
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    That's irrelevant as to whether rich kids get better education or not.
    You do know that, right? Well you do now.

    humour me and answer.


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    #559
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    smcgiff wrote: »
    humour me and answer.
    Why? It's irrelevant what any individual does as to the argument whether family money confers advantage.
    It'd just be another anecdote. You're aware they aren't data, right?


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    #560
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Steddyeddy?

    Hopefully you won't fudge it.

    Edit -To be fair, I imagine Steddyeddy is busy elsewhere at present.


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    #561
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Why? It's irrelevant what any individual does as to the argument whether family money confers advantage.
    It'd just be another anecdote. You're aware they aren't data, right?

    It will tell whether you will put your principles ahead of your children or vice versa.


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    #562
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    smcgiff wrote: »
    It will tell whether you will put your principles ahead of your children or vice versa.
    Again, my principles matter not one bit as to whether rich kid's have an educational advantage. Arguing facts depends on what people think now, not verifiable evidence?
    This diversion pretty much proves you've lost.


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    #563
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Again, my principles matter not one bit as to whether rich kid's have an educational advantage. Arguing facts depends on what people think now, not verifiable evidence?
    This diversion pretty much proves you've lost.

    I've pointed out Deis schools provide an advantage for disadvantaged kids.

    I've also pointed out where Free entry Gael Colaiste provide league topping performance.

    As others have pointed out there are avenues for everyone to be successful academically. Not everyone will want to be. Certain people will value education higher than others.

    Personally I want to know if you are a hypocrite or not.


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    #564
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    smcgiff wrote: »
    I've also pointed out where Free entry Gael Colaiste provide league topping performance.

    Gael Colaisti tend to attract a certain cohort of students, and many are excluded or rule out attending them because they don't or their parents don't see a value in them being taught through Irish.

    Students with learning difficulties are often exempt from doing Irish in school, particularly those with dyslexia. Naturally they are not going to attend a Gael Cholaiste. Foreign students who have come to the country past the age of 10 who don't speak the language won't be attending either (I realise there will be a cohort who have attended primary from an early age, but when Irish is not understood on any level in the home then it's not a consideration). You tend not to find Traveller students in Gael Cholaisti.

    Parents who send their kids to Gael Cholaisti, particularly those that are not from Gaeltacht areas and who do not speak Irish in the home, do so because they are interested in education, have a work ethic, have an interest in the language. Some do it to keep their kids away from the "riff raff".

    The school that topped the league tables this year was the Gael Cholaiste Laurel Hill, Limerick. My friends went there. They only took students from certain areas of town, and certain primary schools. If you had an address in Moyross or Southill you weren't ever going to get in. Parents were interviewed before being offered a place. I know a couple of girls who weren't accepted there despite good grades, coming from the right part of town etc, the only thing they could put it down to was that they came from single parent families.

    It may be a free school, but it's very easy to create a situation where students who are disadvantaged due to their family situation, address, or ability don't get the breaks in a public school either. Naturally when you don't have any of these students in a school the results are going to be good if the students who are admitted come from the more affluent parts of town, where parents tend to have more interest in their child's eduction and perhaps have a better education themselves.


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    #565
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    rainbowtrout wrote: »

    Parents who send their kids to Gael Cholaisti, particularly those that are not from Gaeltacht areas and who do not speak Irish in the home, do so because they are interested in education, have a work ethic, have an interest in the language.

    Agree with you 100% on this.

    However, Limerick operates on a lottery system. Grades have nothing to do with it. It's specifically prohibited from being a factor.

    I've a daughter going to the school. Lots of kids from lots of schools didn't get in. The purpose of the interview is because they have no way to vet the children from coming to the school. The only thing they can do is highlight that it is a Gael Colaiste and that learning will be through Irish. I agree with this.

    Gael Scoil Luimnigh is a very new school and rapidly catching up with LHGS. If enough interested and determined parents get together they will get a Gael scoil set up in their area.


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    #566
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    smcgiff wrote: »
    Agree with you 100% on this.

    However, Limerick operates on a lottery system. Grades have nothing to do with it. It's specifically prohibited from being a factor.

    I've a daughter going to the school. Lots of kids from lots of schools didn't get in. The purpose of the interview is because they have no way to vet the children from coming to the school. The only thing they can do is highlight that it is a Gael Colaiste and that learning will be through Irish. I agree with this.

    Gael Scoil Luimnigh is a very new school and rapidly catching up with LHGS. If enough interested and determined parents get together they will get a Gael scoil set up in there area.

    I'm aware of the lottery system. It's like a mini CAO for the city. I'm from Limerick. I don't think the interview is fair. Other schools don't do it. They accept the kids they get, it's widely known Laurel Hill education is through the medium of Irish so why would the school need to have an interview with parents to let them know this. If other schools don't get to vet their students then why would LH need the interview to do so? And if it is such a lottery why don't kids from certain parts of town get in if their grades are good enough?


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    #567
    Taco Chips
    Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Taco Chips


    rainbowtrout wrote: »

    The school that topped the league tables this year was the Gael Cholaiste Laurel Hill, Limerick. My friends went there. They only took students from certain areas of town, and certain primary schools. If you had an address in Moyross or Southill you weren't ever going to get in. Parents were interviewed before being offered a place. I know a couple of girls who weren't accepted there despite good grades, coming from the right part of town etc, the only thing they could put it down to was that they came from single parent families.

    It may be a free school, but it's very easy to create a situation where students who are disadvantaged due to their family situation, address, or ability don't get the breaks in a public school either. Naturally when you don't have any of these students in a school the results are going to be good if the students who are admitted come from the more affluent parts of town, where parents tend to have more interest in their child's eduction and perhaps have a better education themselves.

    Just wanted to wade into this thread and point out that this is absolutely not the case as entry to all secondary schools in Limerick is determined by a set list of strict criteria. Being from Limerick I know first hand that there is an extremely diverse population of students attending both the English language and Gael Colaiste schools in Laurel Hill and the simple reason that the results are so outstanding there is because there is a very high academic standard expected and enforced throughout.

    I personally always thought of fee paying schools as a very Dublin/Leinster thing. Nearly all other secondary schools here are public entry and the excellent test scores and academic standards tend to be due to a fostering of education at home and in school. Some parents care more about their kids learning than others. Bottom line.


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    #568
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Dan, don't sue me if you get repetitive strain injury from thanking all the posts that contain a counter view to my own.


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    #569
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    I'm aware of the lottery system. It's like a mini CAO for the city. I'm from Limerick. I don't think the interview is fair. Other schools don't do it. They accept the kids they get, it's widely known Laurel Hill education is through the medium of Irish so why would the school need to have an interview with parents to let them know this. If other schools don't get to vet their students then why would LH need the interview to do so? And if it is such a lottery why don't kids from certain parts of town get in if their grades are good enough?

    Your argument re the interview doesn't make sense. They will already know where the kids come from through their application form anyway. If a kid or their parents pick the school by mistake, not realising it was taught through Irish (and some schools with Irish names teach through English) it would be a disaster for the kid.

    Again, school grades are not taken into account.


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    #570
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    Taco Chips wrote: »

    I personally always thought of fee paying schools as a very Dublin/Leinster thing.

    The only fee paying school I know of in the city is Villiers, which costs about €3k per annum and is well down the league table compared to public schools.


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    #571
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    smcgiff wrote: »
    Your argument re the interview doesn't make sense. They will already know where the kids come from through their application form anyway. If a kid or their parents pick the school by mistake, not realising it was taught through Irish (and some schools with Irish names teach through English) it would be a disaster for the kid.

    Again, school grades are not taken into account.

    It says on the form which schools teach through Irish.

    http://www.stmunchinscollege.com/CAS%20Application%20Form%202014-15.pdf


    It also says

    should your child not meet the criteria in the admissions policies
    of those schools identified.


    That leaves the system open to abuse.

    Also you'd have to be living under a rock if your kid had made it to sixth class in primary school in Limerick and not be aware of which schools taught through Irish.


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