Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

RasTa · 31-12-2014 05:00PM

Pro. F wrote: »

First of all, I didn't say that Britton is the best DM, I said that he has been the best DM over the last few years. Whether he gets back to that level, returning from half a season off with a knee injury at his age, remains to be seen.

On the game on Monday, yes I was watching it. Britton played well even though he was having to do so much work covering for Shelvey's lazy ass. Maybe if you had paid more attention, instead of posting on boards during the game, you would have seen that for yourself.

I watched that game to see what he was like and was actually impressed at his passing ability, probably the best on the pitch at moving the ball.

However as a DM it's a big no no, went missing for 2 of Liverpools goals and generally awful at the defensive side. No surprise he was hauled off after 65mins.

The Moldy Gowl · 31-12-2014 05:01PM

Lucas Hood wrote: »

Shaw is homegrown that always adds on extra.

What about Coleman.

Don't know much about his club history

beno619 · 31-12-2014 05:01PM

FutureGuy wrote: »

I love Rafael but Coleman is a better player by a considerable distance. Sorry.

If we're shelling 30 for Shaw, an equivalent figure for Coleman would be the least we can expect.

He really isn't though.

Coleman's only advantage over Rafa is his fitness.

Will I Amnt · 31-12-2014 05:02PM

Right Turn Clyde wrote: »

Every team in the league has players that we should be concerned about, but that doesn't justify attributing to them a style of play that is not theirs. Stoke City, at this moment in time, are not an overtly defensive team, especially when facing the so-called 'big teams'.

I was just commenting on the "kicking players" part. Stoke have hard and aggressive players and United have a ridiculous amount of injury prone players. It's not a good mix.

phenom · 31-12-2014 05:04PM

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

We have two already. I'd be wanting us to sign a box to box type if we were signing a midfielder.

RB and CB has to be priority though IMO.

Our defence this season has been a make shift of young players and midfielders dropping back to fill in the central role, and wing backs,

Rafael Jones rojo shaw is a good back line when fully fit what we would need is good cover for the positions when there is injuries , I can't see van gaal replacing these.

In all honesty with players returning for injury and our form being decent the last few games i can't see any big signing in January .

Lucas Hood · 31-12-2014 05:05PM

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

What about Coleman.

Don't know much about his club history

He moved to Everton at 20/21.
They've to be trained in England for 3 years before their 21st birthday to be counted as homegrown afaik.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 05:06PM

RasTa wrote: »

I watched that game to see what he was like and was actually impressed at his passing ability, probably the best on the pitch at moving the ball.

However as a DM it's a big no no, went missing for 2 of Liverpools goals and generally awful at the defensive side. No surprise he was hauled off after 65mins.

He's only recently back from a serious knee injury, that's the reason he was taken off after an hour. It's been the same in each game since his return.

He wasn't at fault for any of the Liverpool goals. He was the only CM properly getting back into a defensive position for a lot of the game, that's why he was having to cover so much ground.

Billy86 · 31-12-2014 05:07PM

beno619 wrote: »

He really isn't though.

Coleman's only advantage over Rafa is his fitness.

His final ball going forward, too. But on the flipside, Rafael has consistently been above him in almost all defensive statistics in recent years - because Coleman simply isn't asked to defend much. People overlook this for some reason, and even with Everton doing very poorly defensively this year still continue to just ignore it. It's odd.

The £30mn for Shaw argument completely ignores Shaw being homegrown as mentioned, but much more obviously that Shaw is a full seven years younger than Coleman. That's a big, big difference in and of itself.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 05:16PM

Billy86 wrote: »

His final ball going forward, too. But on the flipside, Rafael has consistently been above him in almost all defensive statistics in recent years - because Coleman simply isn't asked to defend much. People overlook this for some reason, and even with Everton doing very poorly defensively this year still continue to just ignore it. It's odd.

The £30mn for Shaw argument completely ignores Shaw being homegrown as mentioned, but much more obviously that Shaw is a full seven years younger than Coleman. That's a big, big difference in and of itself.

Defensive "statistics" are a worthless way of judging defenders. Most good defending means that the player avoids anything that results in a stat being recorded. If you watch Coleman play you can see he's a very good defender, even if he is now playing in a poorly organised team.

Not that I would be advocating spending huge money on any right-back. Just because we overspent on Shaw, doesn't justify doing it again now imo.

Dayum · 31-12-2014 05:19PM

A lot here are being blinded by romanticism regarding Coleman and all because of the simple fact that he's Irish.

I get it.

But in reality neither Coleman nor Rafael are up to scratch.

The Moldy Gowl · 31-12-2014 05:39PM

Dayum wrote: »

A lot here are being blinded by romanticism regarding Coleman and all because of the simple fact that he's Irish.

I get it.

But in reality neither Coleman nor Rafael are up to scratch.

Aside from that.

Rafael when fit and on form is fantastic right back

duffman13 · 31-12-2014 05:43PM

Dayum wrote: »

A lot here are being blinded by romanticism regarding Coleman and all because of the simple fact that he's Irish.

I get it.

But in reality neither Coleman nor Rafael are up to scratch.

Who us up to scratch in your opinion? Both are better options than Valencia. In the league it's Zabeleta, Ivanovic and maybe Clyne ahead of the rest.

But Coleman managed to be and in the PFA team of the year so he must be somewhat up to scratch. As a matter of fact I think a lot of Irish are now talking him down because he is Irish and is now beginning to get some acclaim.

31-12-2014 05:44PM

Dayum wrote: »

A lot here are being blinded by romanticism regarding Coleman and all because of the simple fact that he's Irish.

I get it.

But in reality neither Coleman nor Rafael are up to scratch.

Ha!

Billy86 · 31-12-2014 05:49PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Defensive "statistics" are a worthless way of judging defenders. Most good defending means that the player avoids anything that results in a stat being recorded. If you watch Coleman play you can see he's a very good defender, even if he is now playing in a poorly organised team.

Not that I would be advocating spending huge money on any right-back. Just because we overspent on Shaw, doesn't justify doing it again now imo.

I'm not saying he's a bad defender just not as fantastic as some here seem to make out, I am saying he is not asked to do as much defensively at Everton as Rafael has been with us. His primary role is often as an outlet for them to move the ball forward and quickly, and he is extremely good at it - but a worry there would be how that would translate to opponents sitting deeper against us than they do his current team.

Likewise though, it's not signing him I would have any issue with, it's the price tag that would come with him - if they wanted £25mn (if I recall? We dodged a bullet there!) for Baines who only knows how much they would be looking for, for Coleman who is not only better but younger too.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 06:03PM

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm not saying he's a bad defender just not as fantastic as some here seem to make out, I am saying he is not asked to do as much defensively at Everton as Rafael has been with us. His primary role is often as an outlet for them to move the ball forward and quickly, and he is extremely good at it - but a worry there would be how that would translate to opponents sitting deeper against us than they do his current team.

Likewise though, it's not signing him I would have any issue with, it's the price tag that would come with him - if they wanted £25mn (if I recall? We dodged a bullet there!) for Baines who only knows how much they would be looking for, for Coleman who is not only better but younger too.

He's an excellent full-back, both defensively and going forward. The only legitimate concern about signing him would be price imo.

Billy86 · 31-12-2014 06:15PM

Pro. F wrote: »

He's an excellent full-back, both defensively and going forward. The only legitimate concern about signing him would be price imo.

Having watched him for both Everton and Ireland, he definitely is excellent going forward but it's hyperbolic to say he is defensively as well. He's good defensively, but not in the league of a younger Ashley Cole or Lahm who were excellent defensively.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 06:23PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Having watched him for both Everton and Ireland, he definitely is excellent going forward but it's hyperbolic to say he is defensively as well. He's good defensively, but not in the league of a younger Ashley Cole or Lahm who were excellent defensively.

Semantic hair splitting.

Billy86 · 31-12-2014 06:26PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Semantic hair splitting.

Nope, just pointing out that calling Coleman excellent defensively is indeed hyperbolic and/or setting the bar of excellence to low.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 06:34PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Nope, just pointing out that calling Coleman excellent defensively is indeed hyperbolic and/or setting the bar of excellence to low.

And saying you have to be as good as Cole or Lahm in their prime to be called excellent is setting the bar too high.

RasTa · 31-12-2014 06:35PM

Pro. F wrote: »

He wasn't at fault for any of the Liverpool goals. He was the only CM properly getting back into a defensive position for a lot of the game, that's why he was having to cover so much ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb2V8rh3Els

Scroll to 5.18, although Shelvey is also useless but he losses his man way too easy. I don't think he is a DM

Billy86 · 31-12-2014 06:36PM

Pro. F wrote: »

And saying you have to be as good as Cole or Lahm in their prime to be called excellent is setting the bar too high.

Zabaleta and Ivanovic would set a lower benchmark, and again both are comfortably better defensively than Coleman.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 06:39PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Zabaleta and Ivanovic would set a lower benchmark, and again both are comfortably better defensively than Coleman.

No they aren't. They just have better managers who organise their teams properly.

hufpc8w3adnk65 · 31-12-2014 06:44PM

Pro. F wrote: »

No they aren't. They just have better managers who organise their teams properly.

So LVG is unorignised??
Right.........

Billy86 · 31-12-2014 06:45PM

Pro. F wrote: »

No they aren't. They just have better managers who organise their teams properly.

Yes they are, and that is why two separate managers have both had Coleman's defensive responsibilities (where he is good but not excellent) limited in comparison to his attacking ones (where he is excellent), and why Ivanovic and Zabaleta have both looked defensively superior under multiple managers.

mewe · 31-12-2014 06:55PM

I'd be delighted if we got Coleman. We need another RB and he's up there for me.

He'd be a more intelligent defender than Raf for me but with the two of them we'd have two very good options for RB.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 07:04PM

RasTa wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb2V8rh3Els

Scroll to 5.18, although Shelvey is also useless but he losses his man way too easy. I don't think he is a DM

The first problem with that goal was Shelvey pushing up field and then not getting back quick enough, leaving Britton to cover too much space. Then Fernandez didn't tuck in behind Williams when he came out to the ball, if he had he would have been in the area where Lallana received the one-two. Then Shelvey stopped dead instead of chasing Lallana who was running off the back of Britton, although Shelvey probably wouldn't have gotten there, he still should have been trying. Britton didn't do anything wrong on that goal.

SherlockWatson · 31-12-2014 07:05PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Nope, just pointing out that calling Coleman excellent defensively is indeed hyperbolic and/or setting the bar of excellence to low.

Hyperbolic implies it's not meant to be taken seriously, you're looking for over exaggerated.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 07:08PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Yes they are, and that is why two separate managers have both had Coleman's defensive responsibilities (where he is good but not excellent) limited in comparison to his attacking ones (where he is excellent), and why Ivanovic and Zabaleta have both looked defensively superior under multiple managers.

Coleman had full defensive responsibilities under Moyes. Ivanavic and Zabaleta didn't look defensively superior to Coleman at that time. Martinez's management prevents his players from looking good defensively.

PhlegmyMoses · 31-12-2014 07:09PM

I'm with Pro F here (not on the Britton stuff). Coleman is playing under a manager that has consistently struggled to set up a defence. Martinez' Wigan were fecking awful at the back and Everton are headed that way.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 07:13PM

MrMac84 wrote: »

So LVG is unorignised??
Right.........

I was talking about Coleman, not any United player. But I wouldn't be too convinced of LVG's defensive organisational abilities just yet myself.

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

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