Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST

niamhstokes · 30-12-2014 3:50pm

katydid wrote: »

It's sad that you, and Islam, have so little faith in people. Isn't it amazing how millions of men and women manage to work together and socialise together all over the world without men losing control of themselves and raping their friends and colleagues.

OMG you totally hit the nail on the head there Katy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Major LOL here Love it!!!!!!!!!! haha

muslimstudent · 30-12-2014 3:51pm

katydid wrote: »

It's sad that you, and Islam, have so little faith in people. Isn't it amazing how millions of men and women manage to work together and socialise together all over the world without men losing control of themselves and raping their friends and colleagues.

I didn't mention rape.

Fornication is forbidden in Islam and in other religions too.

niamhstokes · 30-12-2014 3:52pm

Frank Grimes wrote: »

No, I am thinking of the empirical evidence which shows that what you are saying about Ireland is completely divorced from reality.

That would be an ecumenical matter Father Frank :P

In 2011, 84.2% of the population identified themselves as Roman Catholic, 2.6% less than 5 years earlier, although the number of Catholics increased by 179,889.[1] The second largest Christian denomination, the Church of Ireland (Anglican), declined in membership for most of the twentieth century, but has more recently experienced an increase, as have other small Christian denominations. Other significant Protestant denominations are the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, followed by the Methodist Church in Ireland. The country's Hindu and Muslim populations have experienced significant growth in recent years, due chiefly to immigration.

katydid · 30-12-2014 3:53pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

On the whole it does.

Of course you will find Muslims who are negligent and who give in to their desires.

Although we were not born into sin , man (and women) were created weak.

On the whole it works for men and women to mix together without losing control. Men and women are indeed weak, but somehow most of us manage to control our weakness. We don't need one gender to cover itself up to pander to the other.

Frank Grimes · 30-12-2014 3:57pm

niamhstokes wrote: »

That would be an ecumenical matter Father Frank :P

In 2011, 84.2% of the population identified themselves as Roman Catholic, 2.6% less than 5 years earlier, although the number of Catholics increased by 179,889.[1] The second largest Christian denomination, the Church of Ireland (Anglican), declined in membership for most of the twentieth century, but has more recently experienced an increase, as have other small Christian denominations. Other significant Protestant denominations are the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, followed by the Methodist Church in Ireland. The country's Hindu and Muslim populations have experienced significant growth in recent years, due chiefly to immigration.

So we're not all Catholics then? The census doesn't measure religiosity so those figures do not accurately represent the levels of religious adherence in Ireland amongst any of the religious groupings, but I'm sure that point will be met with lols and smiley faces too.

niamhstokes · 30-12-2014 3:59pm

Frank Grimes wrote: »

So we're not all Catholics then? The census doesn't measure religiosity so those figures do not accurately represent the levels of religious adherence in Ireland amongst any of the religious groupings, but I'm sure that point will be met with lols and smiley faces too.

HAHAHAHA yeah :P but like if you go to mass anywhere there is always a good crowd soooooo what's that about? Obviously stil a lot pop in on sunday. I'm at maynooth college and sunday 6pm mass is full of students. They mustn't have got your memo

katydid · 30-12-2014 4:01pm

niamhstokes wrote: »

HAHAHAHA yeah :P but like if you go to mass anywhere there is always a good crowd soooooo what's that about? Obviously stil a lot pop in on sunday. I'm at maynooth college and sunday 6pm mass is full of students. They mustn't have got your memo

Niamh, you're not doing yourself any favours here...

You were making good points regarding Islam, but this is plain silly.

niamhstokes · 30-12-2014 4:02pm

katydid wrote: »

Niamh, you're not doing yourself any favours here...

You were making good points regarding Islam, but this is plain silly.

Yeah fair enough sorry, i'll get back on track. Good point!

muslimstudent · 30-12-2014 4:03pm

katydid wrote: »

On the whole it works for men and women to mix together without losing control. Men and women are indeed weak, but somehow most of us manage to control our weakness. We don't need one gender to cover itself up to pander to the other.

As a mature university student and someone who grew up in a mixed society and worked for several companies I beg to differ.

As far as I am aware in Ireland it is pretty normal for even teenagers to have boyfriend/girlfriend relationships. I am not going to hazard a guess as to how many of these are full on sexual relationships but I know that some level of sexual activity does go on.

Please bear in mind that Islam even forbids opposite sexes touching each other, kissing and cuddling. Although fornication is only when penetration has occured, some degree of control has been lost by touching and kissing.

Our religion is quite conservative.

niamhstokes · 30-12-2014 4:06pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

As far as I am aware in Ireland it is pretty normal for even teenagers to have boyfriend/girlfriend relationships. I am not going to hazard a guess as to how many of these are full on sexual relationships but I know that some level of sexual activity does go on.

Yes I agree and this is also the case in some muslim majority countries, Turkey for example and even now Algeria is heading that way. If we want an example of a European Muslim majority country we could look at Bosnia where most are atheists and certainly don't adhere to the non drinking and no sex before marriage rules.

katydid · 30-12-2014 4:11pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

As a mature university student and someone who grew up in a mixed society and worked for several companies I beg to differ.

As far as I am aware in Ireland it is pretty normal for even teenagers to have boyfriend/girlfriend relationships. I am not going to hazard a guess as to how many of these are full on sexual relationships but I know that some level of sexual activity does go on.

Please bear in mind that Islam even forbids opposite sexes touching each other, kissing and cuddling. Although fornication is only when penetration has occured, some degree of control has been lost by touching and kissing.

Our religion is quite conservative.

Um yes, it's quite normal for teenagers to have boyfriends or girlfriends. So? What has that got to do with males and females being unable to control themselves? And so what if some of those relationships involve sexual contact of different degrees? As long as they are of age and take precautions, they're not harming anyone.

I know what Islam forbids. That's not the point; you can't stop something by banning it entirely. In fact, you make it more enticing, and turn something pretty normal into a big mystery. And it has nothing to do with the fact that WOMEN are expected to cover themselves because of men's perceived inability to control themselves but that men are not expected to do the same. Why are you avoiding this issue?

katydid · 30-12-2014 4:12pm

niamhstokes wrote: »

Yes I agree and this is also the case in some muslim majority countries, Turkey for example and even now Algeria is heading that way. If we want an example of a European Muslim majority country we could look at Bosnia where most are atheists and certainly don't adhere to the non drinking and no sex before marriage rules.

What on earth makes you think that most Bosnian Muslims are atheists?

niamhstokes · 30-12-2014 4:13pm

katydid wrote: »

What on earth makes you think that most Bosnian Muslims are atheists?

A conversation with a Bosnian woman who is a religious Muslim told me.

katydid · 30-12-2014 4:18pm

niamhstokes wrote: »

A conversation with a Bosnian woman who is a religious Muslim told me.

And this one woman knows that most Bosnian Muslims are atheists? I have come across several Bosnian Muslims in the course of my work. Some wear a scarf, but most don't, but they certainly wouldn't describe themselves as "atheists". They just don't go in for all the stuff we're talking about here. They are just more liberal; one student I had told me how one of her sisters converted to Christianity here in Ireland, and her parents, who are Muslims, were fine about it and even attend church for christenings, communions and so on. A grandmother (not sure whether it's maternal or paternal) lives with them, and she wears a scarf, but the parents or the daughter don't. But they are definitely not atheists.

Maybe this devout Muslim you were speaking to considers anyone who is not devout as atheists...

niamhstokes · 30-12-2014 4:23pm

katydid wrote: »

And this one woman knows that most Bosnian Muslims are atheists? I have come across several Bosnian Muslims in the course of my work. Some wear a scarf, but most don't, but they certainly wouldn't describe themselves as "atheists". They just don't go in for all the stuff we're talking about here. They are just more liberal; one student I had told me how one of her sisters converted to Christianity here in Ireland, and her parents, who are Muslims, were fine about it and even attend church for christenings, communions and so on. A grandmother (not sure whether it's maternal or paternal) lives with them, and she wears a scarf, but the parents or the daughter don't. But they are definitely not atheists.

Maybe this devout Muslim you were speaking to considers anyone who is not devout as atheists...

That's very interesting. I'm happy to hear the family were accepting of her converting to Christianity. I know it can be a big deal for a muslim to do that. Often their family will disown them or in severe cases there is a threat of violence or death for apostasy in extreme cases that is. I have watched Dr Nabeel Qureshi's talk on why he converted to Christianity and it's so sad how he describes the situation with his mum and dad now. www. youtube.com/watch?v=H3lHueRXvh0

katydid · 30-12-2014 4:26pm

niamhstokes wrote: »

That's very interesting. I'm happy to hear the family were accepting of her converting to Christianity. I know it can be a big deal for a muslim to do that. Often their family will disown them or in severe cases there is a threat of violence or death for apostasy in extreme cases that is. I have watched Dr Nabeel Qureshi's talk on why he converted to Christianity and it's so sad how he describes the situation with his mum and dad now. www. youtube.com/watch?v=H3lHueRXvh0

I'd imagine it's fairly unusual, but of course the more liberal the parents, the less strong the reaction.

katydid · 30-12-2014 4:31pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

I didn't mention rape.

Fornication is forbidden in Islam and in other religions too.

Rape is the ultimate result of men being unable to control their urges. Rape involves lack of consent. "Fornication" between consenting adults is their own business; a religion can tell them how they should behave, and advise them how help avoid doing what it sees as wrong, but at the end of the day it is up to the individuals to exercise control themselves.

muslimstudent · 30-12-2014 4:33pm

katydid wrote: »

Um yes, it's quite normal for teenagers to have boyfriends or girlfriends. So? What has that got to do with males and females being unable to control themselves? And so what if some of those relationships involve sexual contact of different degrees? As long as they are of age and take precautions, they're not harming anyone.

I know what Islam forbids. That's not the point; you can't stop something by banning it entirely. In fact, you make it more enticing, and turn something pretty normal into a big mystery. And it has nothing to do with the fact that WOMEN are expected to cover themselves because of men's perceived inability to control themselves but that men are not expected to do the same. Why are you avoiding this issue?[/QUOute]

I mentioned earlier that both men and women are instructed to be moderate in their dress and behavior.

The extent of the hijab for men. (hijab meaning covering here,) differs.

Women are instructed by the Lawgiver to cover most of their body, with loose, opaque fabric.
Men have to cover below the knees and above the navels, at a minimum. They are not allowed to wear skin tight clothing as well. We are not allowed to wear silk and glamorous clothing.
There are also rules which forbid us from wearing anything that are peculiar to other faiths - things like crosses, star of dDavids, etc.

Men are also obliged to grow their beards.

muslimstudent · 30-12-2014 4:33pm

katydid wrote: »

Um yes, it's quite normal for teenagers to have boyfriends or girlfriends. So? What has that got to do with males and females being unable to control themselves? And so what if some of those relationships involve sexual contact of different degrees? As long as they are of age and take precautions, they're not harming anyone.

I know what Islam forbids. That's not the point; you can't stop something by banning it entirely. In fact, you make it more enticing, and turn something pretty normal into a big mystery. And it has nothing to do with the fact that WOMEN are expected to cover themselves because of men's perceived inability to control themselves but that men are not expected to do the same. Why are you avoiding this issue?

I mentioned earlier that both men and women are instructed to be moderate in their dress and behavior.

The extent of the hijab for men. (hijab meaning covering here,) differs.

Women are instructed by the Lawgiver to cover most of their body, with loose, opaque fabric.
Men have to cover below the knees and above the navels, at a minimum. They are not allowed to wear skin tight clothing as well. We are not allowed to wear silk and glamorous clothing.

There are also rules which forbid us from wearing anything that are peculiar to other faiths - things like crosses, star of dDavids, etc.

Men are also obliged to grow their beards.

Stheno · 30-12-2014 4:36pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

I mentioned earlier that both men and women are instructed to be moderate in their dress and behavior.

The extent of the hijab for men. (hijab meaning covering here,) differs.

Women are instructed by the Lawgiver to cover most of their body, with loose, opaque fabric.
Men have to cover below the knees and above the navels, at a minimum. They are not allowed to wear skin tight clothing as well. We are not allowed to wear silk and glamorous clothing.

There are also rules which forbid us from wearing anything that are peculiar to other faiths - things like crosses, star of dDavids, etc.

Men are also obliged to grow their beards.

I think you mean above the knees and below the navel for men, no?

katydid · 30-12-2014 4:39pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

katydid wrote: »

Um yes, it's quite normal for teenagers to have boyfriends or girlfriends. So? What has that got to do with males and females being unable to control themselves? And so what if some of those relationships involve sexual contact of different degrees? As long as they are of age and take precautions, they're not harming anyone.

I know what Islam forbids. That's not the point; you can't stop something by banning it entirely. In fact, you make it more enticing, and turn something pretty normal into a big mystery. And it has nothing to do with the fact that WOMEN are expected to cover themselves because of men's perceived inability to control themselves but that men are not expected to do the same. Why are you avoiding this issue?[/QUOute]

I mentioned earlier that both men and women are instructed to be moderate in their dress and behavior.

The extent of the hijab for men. (hijab meaning covering here,) differs.

Women are instructed by the Lawgiver to cover most of their body, with loose, opaque fabric.
Men have to cover below the knees and above the navels, at a minimum. They are not allowed to wear skin tight clothing as well. We are not allowed to wear silk and glamorous clothing.
There are also rules which forbid us from wearing anything that are peculiar to other faiths - things like crosses, star of dDavids, etc.

Men are also obliged to grow their beards.

Yes, you mentioned earlier that men and women are instructed to be moderate in dress and behaviour. And you did say that men and women are instructed to dress differently. No one is disputing that. The POINT is more is expected of women in Islam than of men, and are expected to do so because men are dominant, and expect women's dress and behaviour to fit around theirs. Women have to cover up so that men don't have to worry about exercising self-control.

muslimstudent · 30-12-2014 4:46pm

katydid wrote: »

Rape is the ultimate result of men being unable to control their urges. Rape involves lack of consent. "Fornication" between consenting adults is their own business; a religion can tell them how they should behave, and advise them how help avoid doing what it sees as wrong, but at the end of the day it is up to the individuals to exercise control themselves.

Fornication affects all of society not just individuals.

Fornication very often leads to unwanted pregnancies. In many western countries unwanted pregnancies leads to abortions.

Women, who fall pregnant through fornication are often left to fend for themselves, particularly when the pregnancy resulted from a one night stand or casual sexual relationship.

Fornication may cause STDs, most notably AIDS, a disease which has caused havoc in third world countries.

Fornication, with multiple partners, could result in children being born where the identity of the father is unknown.

I shall limit the possible effects of fornication to these few point for now.

So clearly, fornication affects all of society not just individuals.

Islam limits certain individual freedoms and liberties in order to create a better, positive and more functional society.

muslimstudent · 30-12-2014 4:48pm

Stheno wrote: »

I think you mean above the knees and below the navel for men, no?

Yes you're right. Thanks for spotting that.

I was trying to imagine what I wrote. lol

katydid · 30-12-2014 4:50pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

Fornication affects all of society not just individuals.

Fornication very often leads to unwanted pregnancies. In many western countries unwanted pregnancies leads to abortions.

Women, who fall pregnant through fornication are often left to fend for themselves, particularly when the pregnancy resulted from a one night stand or casual sexual relationship.

Fornication may cause STDs, most notably AIDS, a disease which has caused havoc in third world countries.

Fornication, with multiple partners, could result in children being born where the identity of the father is unknown.

I shall limit the possible effects of fornication to these few point for now.

So clearly, fornication affects all of society not just individuals.

Islam limits certain individual freedoms and liberties in order to create a better, positive and more functional society.

Sure, fornication isn't the best thing for society; stable sexual relations are better. But it's going to happen whether or not it's good for society or not. As I said, it's fine for a religion to point that out to people and offer advice about how to behave; it's not fine for them to force an entire society to behave according to their diktats, or to expect one gender to behave in a certain way so that the other gender doesn't have to behave properly.

Defender OF Faith · 30-12-2014 4:50pm

katydid wrote: »

The POINT is more is expected of women in Islam than of men.

This is simply not true I can argue and say more is expected from a man then a women

The OP discussed such points:

I'll start by quoting what she had said earlier in the thread - "Treating people differently is not the same as treating one gender as inferior." It's important to look at all the issues of how the genders are treated in Islam (and the rationale behind them) before forming conclusions.

"if the shoe was on the other foot and I was a 'masculinist' making the case the Islam is 'misandrous' (for the record, I'm not, but bear with me), I could cite some of the following examples:

- "And give to the women their Dower with a good heart" (Quran 4:4) (Dower is obligatory bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage). This could be viewed as a discrimination against men, and a gross inequality.
- "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women" (Quran 4:34)... Err, again, why? Big deal if we're a bit stronger and taller on average, but women are well able to fend for themselves, so why are men singled out to be the maintainers of women? Women are entitled to their husband's wealth, but men have no rights over their wives' wealth, even if they earn less. More discrimination and burdens for men to bear.
- This isn't just confined to marriage: If a marriage ends in divorce, women get certain guarantees during the waiting period, and even beyond for a woman's support, and are also entitled to child support if they have children. This, again, irrespective of whether she may be wealthier than him to start off with.
- Women get more leeway in matters of daily obligatory prayers. From the time a boy hits puberty, it's a sin for him to miss a single prayer for the rest of his life (assuming he remains of sound mind) - even on his death bed, whereas women get a free pass every month during their periods and have no repercussions for missing the 5 daily prayers during those days. There's also a greater onus on men to attend their local mosque for prayers (and all the effort that's entailed with that), whereas women can cash the same reward with much less effort by praying at home. More inequalities."

niamhstokes · 30-12-2014 5:08pm

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

This is simply not true I can argue and say more is expected from a man then a women

The OP discussed such points:

I'll start by quoting what she had said earlier in the thread - "Treating people differently is not the same as treating one gender as inferior." It's important to look at all the issues of how the genders are treated in Islam (and the rationale behind them) before forming conclusions.

"if the shoe was on the other foot and I was a 'masculinist' making the case the Islam is 'misandrous' (for the record, I'm not, but bear with me), I could cite some of the following examples:

- "And give to the women their Dower with a good heart" (Quran 4:4) (Dower is obligatory bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage). This could be viewed as a discrimination against men, and a gross inequality.
- "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women" (Quran 4:34)... Err, again, why? Big deal if we're a bit stronger and taller on average, but women are well able to fend for themselves, so why are men singled out to be the maintainers of women? Women are entitled to their husband's wealth, but men have no rights over their wives' wealth, even if they earn less. More discrimination and burdens for men to bear.
- This isn't just confined to marriage: If a marriage ends in divorce, women get certain guarantees during the waiting period, and even beyond for a woman's support, and are also entitled to child support if they have children. This, again, irrespective of whether she may be wealthier than him to start off with.
- Women get more leeway in matters of daily obligatory prayers. From the time a boy hits puberty, it's a sin for him to miss a single prayer for the rest of his life (assuming he remains of sound mind) - even on his death bed, whereas women get a free pass every month during their periods and have no repercussions for missing the 5 daily prayers during those days. There's also a greater onus on men to attend their local mosque for prayers (and all the effort that's entailed with that), whereas women can cash the same reward with much less effort by praying at home. More inequalities."

I am happy you see both the inequalities for men and women in the doctrine of the 'religion' of islam.

niamhstokes · 30-12-2014 5:12pm

Here is a pleasant imam talking about what an honour Allah gave us regarding wives and beating them and how 'european' women think their men are like women. You couldn't make up this cr** LOL

www. youtube.com/watch?v=H754R9tX2UY

Defender OF Faith · 30-12-2014 5:14pm

niamhstokes wrote: »

I am happy you see both the inequalities for men and women in the doctrine of the 'religion' of islam.

"Treating people differently is not the same as treating one gender as inferior."

Difference between the genders exists and Islam treat both in a way that bring the most justice equality and benefit to society and genders.

smcgiff · 30-12-2014 5:21pm

muslimstudent wrote: »

Our religion is quite conservative.

Something everyone can agree on. Although maybe the word 'quite' isn't strong enough for some.

It's silly to think anyone is going to change their minds on this thread.

Muslims are going to argue a 1400 year old book is the PERFECT instruction for how we should live our lives.

Westerners with a lot more exposure to philosophy and culture in general (due to greater and easier communication/media) will argue this is not normal.

Not that the arguments shouldn't be made, but this thread can go on for thousands of more posts ( and should be allowed to) without anyone having a road to Damascus experience.

niamhstokes · 30-12-2014 6:19pm

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

"Treating people differently is not the same as treating one gender as inferior."

Difference between the genders exists and Islam treat both in a way that bring the most justice equality and benefit to society and genders.

Sometimes it does mean exactly that. Such as the verse in the quran on the 3 steps to 'correcting' a wife. Who 'corrects' a grown adult they are married to? How about a mature adult dialogue rather than interacting with your spouse like they are a small child? 1) speak to them 2) sleep in seperate beds 3) beat her , sugar coated for westerners as a 'miswak' and the likes when the reality is different. See the imam i posted above for example

Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST

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