Are Irish men too subservient? - See Mod warning in post 52

The Masculinist · 23-12-2014 06:28PM

lazybones32 wrote: »

Couldn't agree more!
The closer you get to the Iron Curtain, the more the women want their Men to be Men. I've met Czech, Slovene, Bosnian (they were fine) Slovak and Polish women who don't like Irish men because of this attribute of being afraid to displease a woman a.k.a. having a backbone and not bending over to please her (or not offend her in anyway)

Is it something do do with too much mothering? or should dad teach his boys better?

Great to hear this. I have met Czech, Croatian and Slovenien women who all have the same opinion. They were all certainly easy on the eye too and very feminine!

I believe the English speaking media has a lot to blame for it. That and Irish mammies generally nagging their husbands to death...

The Masculinist · 23-12-2014 06:30PM

smcgiff wrote: »

But you're wondering if Irish men are subservient because they don't dominate and lead women. You even believe that's what women want.

And, you really should write your above sentence as follows... 'and I treat them with respect, in my opinion.' because I'm finding it hard to believe that from what you have written.

Perhaps our definition of respect differs. The word "being a doormat for your OH" is not part of mine.

smcgiff · 23-12-2014 06:31PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

The word "being a doormat for your OH" is not part of mine.

Dictating who she can and cannot see suggests otherwise.

Sleepy · 23-12-2014 06:31PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

Fair point. The examples are not mine. I do wonder how you can believe societies are less developed simpl because they have a religious ethos? So you are saying former superpowers like Spain and Italy are less developed relative to Ireland? That is an interesting point which I cannot agree with!

Religion has pretty warped ideas on many things, the role of women in society being a fairly major one imo.

As such, I find a fairly obvious correlation between the level of religion in a country and the level of social development. At one extreme, you'd have the social norms of Islamic states in the middle east where women are literally property, while at the other the Scandinavian states where women are on the verge of (or already holding?) superior legal rights to men.

With regard being friends with an ex, I don't think it is a good idea personally as there is always history and tension so I tend to agree with my friend on that one. I generally cut ties with an ex. Of course that would be very different if a child or a significant asset (such as a house which tied us both down with a mortgage etc.) was involved.

It depends on the relationship tbh. If you split up simply because things just ran their course, you were too young to be in a relationship, because you weren't sexually compatible etc. there's no reason not to remain friends imo.

If it was a relationship based only on sexual attraction, one that ended badly or with one party devastated, it's obviously an awful idea to try and remain friends though.

strandroad · 23-12-2014 06:32PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

I do have a high opinion of myself. I am proud of who I am and I am generally confident. This is based on what I have achieved in life, how I treat others, the friends I have and my current beautiful, kind and caring Girlfriend. I am pretty sure in my own skin, I don't think that is a crime now is it?

I believe women are beautiful and I treat them with respect.

That's cool, but if a woman is less focused on being beautiful and caring, and more on progress or enterpreneurship, she does not need to be 'led' by her partner and southern/eastern machismo would not work for her. Irish women seem fairly confident so 'led by a man' culture did not catch here. Communication and humour seems to be much better among the Irish in general so it might be an extention of that - try any posturing and you're setting yourself up for slagging.

phater phagan · 23-12-2014 06:34PM

Men who wish to dominate women are generally lacking in self-confidence and inner moral strength. They are also usually not at the higher level of the intelligence quotient, and are not very much fun to be around either ( lacking in humour and wit ). A man who is strong in character does not need to upgrade his sense of well-being by degrading others. Many women who stay with such men are unhappy and lack self-confidence like their male partner. A smart confident woman wants a smart confident man and vice versa - someone who is also fun to be around. There now.

The Masculinist · 23-12-2014 06:35PM

mhge wrote: »

That's cool, but if a woman is less focused on being beautiful and caring, and more on progress or enterpreneurship.

I want a woman who is both. If they are not, then they are not for me. I have dated an Eastern European who was making steps to run her own business while she was still beautiful and kept a good home.

It doesn't not have to be one of the other, beauty and progress/entrepreneurship can co exist.

Westernyelp · 23-12-2014 06:37PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

I do have a high opinion of myself. I am proud of who I am and I am generally confident. This is based on what I have achieved in life, how I treat others, the friends I have and my current beautiful, kind and caring Girlfriend. I am pretty sure in my own skin, I don't think that is a crime now is it?

I believe women are beautiful and I treat them with respect.

Please bear in mind that what I have posted are comments others have said to me!

The comments you are making would contradict your claim of high self confidence

The Masculinist · 23-12-2014 06:37PM

phater phagan wrote: »

Men who wish to dominate women are generally lacking in self-confidence and inner moral strength. They are also usually not at the higher level of the intelligence quotient, and are not very much fun to be around either ( lacking in humour and wit ). A man who is strong in character does not need to upgrade his sense of well-being by degrading others. Many women who stay with such men are unhappy and lack self-confidence like their male partner. A smart confident woman wants a smart confident man and vice versa - someone who is also fun to be around. There now.

Agree. I don't think we are talking about degrading anyone here.

strandroad · 23-12-2014 06:37PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

I want a woman who is both. If they are not, then they are not for me. I have dated an Eastern European who was making steps to run her own business while she was still beautiful and kept a good home.

It doesn't not have to be one of the other, beauty and progress/entrepreneurship can co exist.

Yeah, good luck with running a business when your man expects you to keep a good home and be beautiful for him while he leads you.

The Masculinist · 23-12-2014 06:38PM

Westernyelp wrote: »

The comments you are making would contradict your claim of high self confidence

Can you give me some examples and explain why instead of making a blanket statement like that?

smcgiff · 23-12-2014 06:38PM

phater phagan wrote: »

There now.

Indeed, you're a man of few posts, but if the rest are as sage as this one I welcome them.

The Masculinist · 23-12-2014 06:40PM

I think my question has been answered nicely by the above posts. The majority of Irish men are more subservient than many European counterparts it appears. In fact, it appears that they like to be and defend/support the practice. Thanks for everyone's input, it was informative.

smcgiff · 23-12-2014 06:42PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

Can you give me some examples and explain why instead of making a blanket statement like that?

Followed by you scuttling away...

The Masculinist wrote: »

I think my question has been answered nicely by the above posts. The majority of Irish men are more subservient than many European counterparts it appears. In fact, it appears that they like to be and defend/support the practice. Thanks for everyone's input, it was informative.

Westernyelp · 23-12-2014 06:42PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

Can you give me some examples and explain why instead of making a blanket statement like that?

You are quiet good at blanket statements yourself, however, I was referring to your need to Assign strict roles and rules in your relationships, regarding who your partner may speak to and what they should do. this is controlling and the sign of a weak or unconfident person in my view.

The Masculinist · 23-12-2014 06:44PM

smcgiff wrote: »

Followed by you scuttling away...

Not scutting away. I asked a question and it was answered. I can stick around to field your questions should you wish. Perhaps you should answer my previous question first.

smcgiff · 23-12-2014 06:46PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

Perhaps you should answer my previous question first.

Which one was that?

The Masculinist · 23-12-2014 06:48PM

Westernyelp wrote: »

You are quiet good at blanket statements yourself, however, I was referring to your need to Assign strict roles and rules in your relationships, regarding who your partner may speak to and what they should do. this is controlling and the sign of a weak or unconfident person in my view.

I respect your views. Surely someone how is powerful requires a degree of confidence? I don't like my partner being friends with her ex. If she would like a one of meeting to discuss something with him, fine. I just don't want the guy hanging around. In my opinion, men who are friends with women generally want something other than friendship. Any women I am friends with, I generally would "have my way" with them should the time arise and should I be single. So to be honest, I think it is a bad idea.

Likewise my current GF believes that it is a bad idea for a man to be friendly with his ex. Fair enough, I respect that.

The Masculinist · 23-12-2014 06:50PM

smcgiff wrote: »

Which one was that?

I repeat:

Can you give me some examples and explain why instead of making a blanket statement like that?

Pat Mustard · 23-12-2014 07:00PM

Mod:

Thread closed pending mod review.

Pat Mustard · 24-12-2014 05:35PM

Moderator warning

This thread contains generalizations about the sexes, which are against the forum charter. There have been no references to reputable newspapers or journals. People have made unverifiable references to experiences of their friends from other countries, which are unsatisfactory. Please do better than that in future.

This thread is now reopened on the following conditions:

1. Posters will be familiar with the forum charter.
2. There will be no sexist posts or any misogyny of any kind.
3. There will be no encouragement of sexism or misogyny.
4. There will be no wheedling posts which attempt to ask for, draw out or encourage sexism or misogyny in any way.
5. There will no lazy generalizations which attempt to characterize either gender/sex in any way. Whether or not this may have happened previously will be no defence.
6. There will be no trolling.
7. There will be no posting off-topic. The forum charter provides for a three month ban in this regard.
8. If these conditions are not strictly observed, the thread will be closed.
9. These conditions will be rigorously enforced with cards and bans.

Tarzana2 · 24-12-2014 06:27PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

A thread in PI got me thinking. Are Irish men too subservient? I have friends from Spain, Italy, Latvia, Croatia, Hungary etc. and they all appear to be much more dominant when it comes to how they treat their girlfriends, wives and partners. Indeed some of them have even said to me that they feel Irish men are too subservient (they even extend this to British men also). Perhaps it is a cultural thing? Having dated both Irish and foreign (Spanish and Czech) women, the foreign GFs all had the same opinion. They also said that they preferred me to most Irish men because I knew how to "treat them like a woman" and didn't give in to everything they wanted.

Some examples I have seen are as follows;

Croatian friend "I would never allow my GF to hang around with her ex BFs, it is bad news!" (said relating to a friend whose Irish GF continues to be good friends with her ex)

Spanish friend "Why are you cooking and cleaning all of the time" (Said in relation to a friend who does all of the house work)

Ex GF (Czech), "I generally don't find Irish guys attractive, they spend too much time trying to please their GF and don't lead them. For example, the girls at work expect engagement rings to the value of €5k+ and they say that their BFs would buy them no problem!"

Of course this is a mass generalisation, but it appears that Irish men are a bit more subservient that European counterparts from what I have seen!

Yeah on the whole, men from other parts of Europe are more dominant, it seems.

Have to say though, whilst I don't agree with men being dictated to about when they can out or any shít like that, I MUCH prefer the Irish way.

LOLLERS at the thoughts of me telling my BF he can't go out though. My relationship P45 would be handed to me right there and then.

I think there a balance to be struck. Hate some of the relationships values held by some the EE men of my acquaintance. HATE. But bitchslapped ain't good either.

ILikeBananas · 24-12-2014 06:28PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

I think my question has been answered nicely by the above posts. The majority of Irish men are more subservient than many European counterparts it appears. In fact, it appears that they like to be and defend/support the practice. Thanks for everyone's input, it was informative.

glad you got what you came for

Tarzana2 · 24-12-2014 06:40PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

I am generally confident.

The Masculinist wrote: »

Likewise, I don't like my GF being friends with her ex, hence she isn't.

I dunno, this betrays a bit of insecurity here, IMO.

smcgiff · 24-12-2014 06:47PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

I repeat:

Can you give me some examples and explain why instead of making a blanket statement like that?

You didn't originally direct that at me and it was answered.

Jawgap · 24-12-2014 06:53PM

I'd say most Irish guys, because of their upbringing and the centrality of family in Irish life, have a bias in that direction. Some people may see this as 'subservience' - others may see it differently.

I'd suggest that if people are bothered by current partners hanging out or meeting up with former partners then there are unresolved trust and confidence issues there. As such, perhaps the lack of dominant behaviours is an indication of self-confidence.

The Masculinist · 24-12-2014 07:07PM

Tarzana2 wrote: »

I dunno, this betrays a bit of insecurity here, IMO.

Jawgap wrote: »

I'd say most Irish guys, because of their upbringing and the centrality of family in Irish life, have a bias in that direction. Some people may see this as 'subservience' - others may see it differently.

I'd suggest that if people are bothered by current partners hanging out or meeting up with former partners then there are unresolved trust and confidence issues there. As such, perhaps the lack of dominant behaviours is an indication of self-confidence.

Interesting to see that posters are more preoccupied by judging my self-confidence based on my posts as opposed to dealing with the issues raised in the original post.

Paramite Pie · 24-12-2014 07:16PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

I don't think insisting that your OH chips in for her fair share of the housework ............ is sexist.

Ha! How often does a man do more than his fair share? While I do know men who do more housework than their women, it's generally not that common in my experience. Alot of us complain about what little housework we do do.

I'm a guy but I don't think that's a common complaint if we're talking 50/50 housework duties in fairness.

That being said, your bang on about engagement rings -- if a woman weren't happy about the price i'm willing to pay for a temporary ring then she can take a hike. There's plenty out there who aren't bothered.:D

Jawgap · 24-12-2014 07:16PM

The Masculinist wrote: »

A thread in PI got me thinking. Are Irish men too subservient? I have friends from Spain, Italy, Latvia, Croatia, Hungary etc. and they all appear to be much more dominant when it comes to how they treat their girlfriends, wives and partners. Indeed some of them have even said to me that they feel Irish men are too subservient (they even extend this to British men also). Perhaps it is a cultural thing? Having dated both Irish and foreign (Spanish and Czech) women, the foreign GFs all had the same opinion. They also said that they preferred me to most Irish men because I knew how to "treat them like a woman" and didn't give in to everything they wanted.

Some examples I have seen are as follows;

Croatian friend "I would never allow my GF to hang around with her ex BFs, it is bad news!" (said relating to a friend whose Irish GF continues to be good friends with her ex)

Spanish friend "Why are you cooking and cleaning all of the time" (Said in relation to a friend who does all of the house work)

Ex GF (Czech), "I generally don't find Irish guys attractive, they spend too much time trying to please their GF and don't lead them. For example, the girls at work expect engagement rings to the value of €5k+ and they say that their BFs would buy them no problem!"

Of course this is a mass generalisation, but it appears that Irish men are a bit more subservient that European counterparts from what I have seen!

The Masculinist wrote: »

Interesting to see that posters are more preoccupied by judging my self-confidence based on my posts as opposed to dealing with the issues raised in the original post.

Allow me.....

First, I'm not even sure what it means to treat someone 'like a woman.' I was lucky enough to meet and marry my best friend. She hangs around with ex-BFs because she's from a small town and it's difficult for her not to run in to exes. Bring the sociable soul she is she's not going to ignore them.

Second point - cooking - I cook. I cook lots. For two reasons. First, a long time ago I trained as a chef and developed a love of cooking. Second, at Uni and through my 20s I found that being a good cook got me lots of action

Girls, in my experience, like guys who can cook a decent meal from first principles!!!

Keeping the place tidy is just common sense.

Ex-GF (Czech) sounds jealous.

The Masculinist · 24-12-2014 07:34PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Allow me.....

First, I'm not even sure what it means to treat someone 'like a woman.' I was lucky enough to meet and marry my best friend. She hangs around with ex-BFs because she's from a small town and it's difficult for her not to run in to exes. Bring the sociable soul she is she's not going to ignore them.

Second point - cooking - I cook. I cook lots. For two reasons. First, a long time ago I trained as a chef and developed a love of cooking. Second, at Uni and through my 20s I found that being a good cook got me lots of action Girls, in my experience, like guys who can cook a decent meal from first principles!!!

Keeping the place tidy is just common sense.

Ex-GF (Czech) sounds jealous.

So, as per the question raised in the initial post, are Irish men more subservient than their European counterparts?

Are Irish men too subservient? - See Mod warning in post 52

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